Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Salad Utensil]

Oh I was referring to Eirika's route since Tana is still in lower mid there. Flight is also equivalent to spare mounts allowing easy rescue chains for your combatants and lord->throne as well.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

Being marginally worse at combat than Saleh on Eirika's route makes them lower mid because Saleh is lower mid on Ephraim's route? I don't follow your logic...

I'm saying being worse at combat than EIRIKA route Saleh (I think significantly, I'd imagine that 3 SPD is quite a big deal) and also being at best equal to him in staff use after we put all those resources in means they should be lower. I'm arguing them to Lower Mid, and over there Eir. Saleh was in Lower Mid, so I figured I'd compare the two and also try to get Saleh raised while I'm at it. Two birds with one stone.

[Anouleth]

I'm saying being worse at combat than EIRIKA route Saleh (I think significantly, I'd imagine that 3 SPD is quite a big deal) and also being at best equal to him in staff use after we put all those resources in means they should be lower. I'm arguing them to Lower Mid, and over there Eir. Saleh was in Lower Mid, so I figured I'd compare the two and also try to get Saleh raised while I'm at it. Two birds with one stone.

To be honest he could go into High Tier next to Moulder. Moulder's staff rank is going to be higher but not by much, and on Eirika Route Saleh has access to Barrier and Physic staves to help catch up. He also has a vastly improved chance to S Rank Anima and get sole access to Excalibur, so his combat blows Moulder out of the water.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't see why Lute/Artur have to go to Lower Mid because they're worse than Eir Saleh, it would seem that a comparison to Garcia or something would be more prudent (and even then they could still stay in the same tier).

The Spd is actually not *that* big of deal, because FE8 enemies are pretty slow. It looks like a big difference, but considering most monsters have terrible Spd and a lot of human enemy types aren't much better, Lute/Artur manage to double most enemies anyway.

@Anouleth Moulder can Warp, Saleh can't (he's not getting two staff ranks playing efficiently). It's a big difference.

Edited August 9, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Salad Utensil]

I think 11/3 Artur and 10/3 Lute is a better comparison to Eph!Saleh than 10/1 for both...and remember they have been contributing for all of chapters 4-15 before Saleh even shows up.

Artur at least has very acceptable combat in chapters 11 and 12 especially since he literally 2HKOes anything on the map which combined with accuracy, noticable crit, staves, 6 movement, and 2 range is very welcome in those route maps where a single miss will screw you over. Lute on the other hand...I haven't actually used much, but I imagine still would be useful since she was slightly better than Artur chapters 4-10. The main issue is getting enough guiding rings for Moulder, Natasha, Artur, Knoll (who I think is underrated since he makes risky strategies much more reliable when you are low turning every chapter), and Lute since you will probably be forgoing the chapter 15 and 17 rings and maybe the chapter 14 one. It's not a huge issue if you are willing to spend an extra turn in chapter 19 to visit the secret shop though...

The main issue is that dropping the mages down a tier is a very rash decision that needs more evidence to support before making the change.

I think Saleh might have a chance to get warp actually, just let me get back to my playthrough to prove it (don't hold it to me though)

this is not a shameless advertisement to attract traffic

Also I don't think putting resources into someone as a point against a unit is a valid argument unless those resources do not reap returns (i.e. a promotion item if it'll save even 1 turn which can not be lowered elsewhere).

Edited August 9, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

I think 11/3 Artur and 10/3 Lute is a better comparison to Eph!Saleh than 10/1 for both...and remember they have been contributing for all of chapters 4-15 before Saleh even shows up.

It's questionable if you can call what they do before promotion "contributing". Not 1-rounding and getting 2RKOed is not impressing anybody.

Artur at least has very acceptable combat in chapters 11 and 12 especially since he literally 2HKOes anything on the map which combined with accuracy, noticable crit, staves, 6 movement, and 2 range is very welcome in those route maps where a single miss will screw you over. Lute on the other hand...I haven't actually used much, but I imagine still would be useful since she was slightly better than Artur chapters 4-10. The main issue is getting enough guiding rings for Moulder, Natasha, Artur, Knoll (who I think is underrated since he makes risky strategies much more reliable when you are low turning every chapter), and Lute since you will probably be forgoing the chapter 15 and 17 rings and maybe the chapter 14 one. It's not a huge issue if you are willing to spend an extra turn in chapter 19 to visit the secret shop though...

The Chapter 14 and 17 Rings are perfectly simple to get.

In addition you will not train both Artur and Lute. Feeding exp into one shitty magic user is slow enough.

I think Saleh might have a chance to get warp actually, just let me get back to my playthrough to prove it (don't hold it to me though)

Not in Ephraim Route. Saleh needs to use Barrier 28 times to hit A Rank. By that point the game is likely over.

[Salad Utensil]

It's questionable if you can call what they do before promotion "contributing". Not 1-rounding and getting 2RKOed is not impressing anybody.

When your alternative is Gilliam, Neimi, and Ross for most of those chapters their deployment faces little opportunity cost. At that point anything they do to lower turncount is considered contributing. Although it may seem counter intuitive comparing them statistically to earlygame powerhouses like Garcia, Eirika, Franz, and Joshua is an inaccurate method to determine worth. Resources like EXP is not a large issue since you are going slightly slower and can funnel experience into weaker units early on because you're using them long term. Being two rounded is somewhat mitigated by having accurate one-two range because they don't have to take a counter when they attack. It's hard to explain, but in a Sethless run, earlygame you have to take advantage of everyone to the fullest extent not just your primary combatants and misses will cost you turns so the addition range your mages have come in handy.

Furthermore, I would like to mention that Artur's combat is actually really good in chapters 11 and 12 (he can 1HKO most enemies or hits them down to single digit HP and his durability isn't much worse than Saleh) while 15 is desert.

The Chapter 14 and 17 Rings are perfectly simple to get.

I actually wasn't very sure when I made that claim, but I'll have to test it out for sure...

In addition you will not train both Artur and Lute. Feeding exp into one shitty magic user is slow enough.

Actually it's very possible, just probably not worth it. I just mentioned it for the sake of comparison. The experience is likely better focused toward: Forde, Kyle and Joshua of course.

Not in Ephraim Route. Saleh needs to use Barrier 28 times to hit A Rank. By that point the game is likely over.

Yeah sorry, I was referring to Eirika's Saleh (he can also use hammerne, rescue, torch, unlock on occasion too)

[Rewjeo]

Being better than Low/Bottom Tier characters (who manage to be their despite almost always existing) doesn't mean you're contributing. I'd imagine that Eirika/Vanessa/Joshua/Garcia/Franz are pulling all the weight earlygame.

Saleh was the comparison I made there because Saleh was in Lower Mid. I didn't want to type up multiple arguments. Anyways, looking at Lower Mid units, we've got Myrrh and Dozla. Are either of them hugely better than those two? Well, maybe enough for a tier gap. But what about Eir. Duessel, who's at the bottom of Upper Mid? I think they're probably worse. So maybe bottom of Upper Mid is more reasonable, or at least near the bottom.

lolguidingrings. I doubt you'd ever use more than two guiding rings: one of Artur/Lute and Knoll.

I support Saleh into High Tier. A big part of what kept him in Upper Mid when I tried to argue him there before was Lute. At this point, I think that's not nearly as much of a problem, especially with the rule about not using units who need the same resources and fill the same role. I can do a more detailed post on this later.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't see what makes Artur worse than Natasha, unless being a healer from C5-C10 or so is that wonderful. They probably have about the same Staff rank when Artur promotes, Artur then has 1 more Mov+offense+ a little more durability. Natasha wins Mov when she promotes, but given her low starting level and limited staff exp this ends up being really late in the game.

Eir. Duessel really isn't that useful IMO. He generally doesn't have enough Spd to double the lategame bosses (hard to get his axe rank up on Eir route and misses out on some even with Garm), which makes him a very meh Warp candidate, and the lategame maps either consist of "Warp bosskilling unit to throne, win/seize" or maps which value high Mov and flier utility, neother of which he has. I don't think Eir Duessel makes a turncount difference past C15.

Edited August 9, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

lolguidingrings. I doubt you'd ever use more than two guiding rings: one of Artur/Lute and Knoll.

Natasha and Moulder... if only for the extra movement. Being able to y'know, fight, is also useful.

[Mekkah]

And Warp!

[Salad Utensil]

Being better than Low/Bottom Tier characters (who manage to be their despite almost always existing) doesn't mean you're contributing. I'd imagine that Eirika/Vanessa/Joshua/Garcia/Franz are pulling all the weight earlygame.

Saleh was the comparison I made there because Saleh was in Lower Mid. I didn't want to type up multiple arguments. Anyways, looking at Lower Mid units, we've got Myrrh and Dozla. Are either of them hugely better than those two? Well, maybe enough for a tier gap. But what about Eir. Duessel, who's at the bottom of Upper Mid? I think they're probably worse. So maybe bottom of Upper Mid is more reasonable, or at least near the bottom.

lolguidingrings. I doubt you'd ever use more than two guiding rings: one of Artur/Lute and Knoll.

I support Saleh into High Tier. A big part of what kept him in Upper Mid when I tried to argue him there before was Lute. At this point, I think that's not nearly as much of a problem, especially with the rule about not using units who need the same resources and fill the same role. I can do a more detailed post on this later.

I also support Eir!Saleh in high tier, but I think Artur and Natasha should go there with him. I want to reiterate that Slayer is broken and Artur was literally my 3rd best combatant in chapter 11 after Gerik and Franz (but could also use staves for lifting the fog and healing).

Maybe move Saleh and Duessel up instead of others down (I think Eph Saleh and Eir Duessel are underrated, but I don't think that the proper way to do this is drag Artur and Lute down without a bounty of evidence from comparative analysis and gameplay), but I don't want to jump a gun here either. The only boss with significant AS is Orson after chapter 15 because you probably can't use Garm yet. Lyon and Riev have bad AS.

You're under estimating strong accurate chip damage earlygame as no one can actually 1RKO strong enemies (as in mercenaries/myrmidons/armors/cavaliers) except maybe Eirika who gets 2RKOed by many things early game.

About guiding rings, they are too expensive to buy without the silver card, the only ones that are easy to get are the chapter 5 and Pablo's guiding ring. The one in chapter 14 might mean you forgo some other items while the one in chapter 17 means you might end up missing out on a 1 turn finish. Chapter 19 secret shop might be okay to visit unless you plan to do a 1 turn finish. Moulder and Natasha might want/need the extra move and magic for more warp range to do crazy stuff in the endgame chapters.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

I don't see what makes Artur worse than Natasha, unless being a healer from C5-C10 or so is that wonderful. They probably have about the same Staff rank when Artur promotes, Artur then has 1 more Mov+offense+ a little more durability. Natasha wins Mov when she promotes, but given her low starting level and limited staff exp this ends up being really late in the game.

It doesn't take as long to gain staff rank as you'd think. She'll probably have a B by when Artur promotes. And healing>not much chipping, and if he's getting much EXP, then it's not coming from chipping.

Natasha and Moulder... if only for the extra movement. Being able to y'know, fight, is also useful.

I doubt their combat is doing much. I guess that the movement is nice, though. Still, there's the rule about not using units who compete for the same resources to fill the same roll.

I also support Eir!Saleh in high tier, but I think Artur and Natasha should go there with him. I want to reiterate that Slayer is broken and Artur was literally my 3rd best combatant in chapter 11 after Gerik and Franz (but could also use staves for lifting the fog and healing).

Slayer isn't broken. Saleh is also ORKOing EVERYTHING for a while, and by the end, we have the effective weapons to handle monsters. Not to mention 10/5 Artur vs. 10/ Saleh, offensively... Assuming both get a Body Ring, Elfire!Saleh has 27 MT and 15-16 AS against Shine!Artur's 32 attack and 13 AS. Saleh also has ~3 more HP and DEF. And, IIRC, 14 AS is the magic number. Guess which one reaches it? Guess who might reach it even without the Body Ring? Saleh. This is after all of the growing has happened. Saleh still might win, and if he doesn't, he's not losing by too much, especially since he has zero competition for Excalibur. It'll drop his AS down, but I bet he has some huge attack with it.

Maybe move Saleh and Duessel up instead of others down (I think Eph Saleh and Eir Duessel are underrated, but I don't think that the proper way to do this is drag Artur and Lute down without a bounty of evidence from comparative analysis and gameplay), but I don't want to jump a gun here either. The only boss with significant AS is Orson after chapter 15 because you probably can't use Garm yet. Lyon and Riev have bad AS.

My original point was to move Lute/Artur down, not Saleh up. Over at TEB, I was just bringing Saleh up in the process. Now, I'm just comparing them to Saleh, still, because they're >him here, too.

You're under estimating strong accurate chip damage earlygame as no one can actually 1RKO strong enemies (as in mercenaries/myrmidons/armors/cavaliers) except maybe Eirika who gets 2RKOed by many things early game.

No, I'm not. Garcia, Franz, and Joshua all have solid offense, and that chip isn't helping that much. Further, they aren't getting much EXP just from the occasional chip, so we do have to feed them stuff to be Saleh lite later.

About guiding rings, they are too expensive to buy without the silver card, the only ones that are easy to get are the chapter 5 and Pablo's guiding ring. The one in chapter 14 might mean you forgo some other items while the one in chapter 17 means you might end up missing out on a 1 turn finish. Chapter 19 secret shop might be okay to visit unless you plan to do a 1 turn finish. Moulder and Natasha might want/need the extra move and magic for more warp range to do crazy stuff in the endgame chapters.

So that's another advantage for Saleh. He doesn't need one. Lute/Artur do, and we've got Moulder/Natasha/Knoll who also want one of the two reasonably available ones.

[Salad Utensil]

It doesn't take as long to gain staff rank as you'd think. She'll probably have a B by when Artur promotes. And healing>not much chipping, and if he's getting much EXP, then it's not coming from chipping.

I can confirm this, I can also confirm Artur can reach B with just chapter 11 and 12 too...

I doubt their combat is doing much. I guess that the movement is nice, though. Still, there's the rule about not using units who compete for the same resources to fill the same roll.

Some movement and extra magic might mean the difference between 1 turning a chapter or 2 turning it.

Slayer isn't broken. Saleh is also ORKOing EVERYTHING for a while, and by the end, we have the effective weapons to handle monsters. Not to mention 10/5 Artur vs. 10/ Saleh, offensively... Assuming both get a Body Ring, Elfire!Saleh has 27 MT and 15-16 AS against Shine!Artur's 32 attack and 13 AS. Saleh also has ~3 more HP and DEF. And, IIRC, 14 AS is the magic number. Guess which one reaches it? Guess who might reach it even without the Body Ring? Saleh. This is after all of the growing has happened. Saleh still might win, and if he doesn't, he's not losing by too much, especially since he has zero competition for Excalibur. It'll drop his AS down, but I bet he has some huge attack with it.

Bare in mind I had a very stat screwed Artur who had to promote at level 10 and he could still 1HKO/2HKO everything on the maps. Having 3 more HP and 1-2 more Def will almost never make a difference between getting XRKOed and (X+1)RKOed. Artur's position isn't just due to his not so amazing combat, since he can feasible reach warp and everything below it in a non-trivial timeframe.

I'm missing why 14AS is the magic number here? In chapter 11 maybe...

13.2 can't be 14AS, but 15.2 can be 16AS...What?

My original point was to move Lute/Artur down, not Saleh up. Over at TEB, I was just bringing Saleh up in the process. Now, I'm just comparing them to Saleh, still, because they're >him here, too.

Sorry, I'm not understanding what TEB (I'm probably just dumb). I'm not seeing why Saleh can't be bumped up to upper mid unless someone is actually against it.

No, I'm not. Garcia, Franz, and Joshua all have solid offense, and that chip isn't helping that much. Further, they aren't getting much EXP just from the occasional chip, so we do have to feed them stuff to be Saleh lite later.

I realize what I'm saying sounds very unconvincing even from a logical standpoint, but since you are not one rounding most of the enemies, that chip is actually helping a lot, less so than their combat of course. However, Artur's C staves are realllllly good which makes him a good candidate for Warp/Rescue once you get it.

So that's another advantage for Saleh. He doesn't need one. Lute/Artur do, and we've got Moulder/Natasha/Knoll who also want one of the two reasonably available ones.

There's also the master seal to consider...but it has Tana or your last cavalier to consider too, I guess. I mean you theoretically could get the chapter 14 and 17 ones too, but I'm not sure yet...waiting until chapter 19 to buy isn't out of the question for lategame warpskipping too.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not arguing Artur/Lute greater than Saleh persay, but I am arguing against them dropping down to lower mid

I see it more like:

Eirika's Route:

High

...

Moulder

Saleh

Artur

Natasha

Uppermid

Joshua

Innes

Lute

Garcia

...

Ephraim's route

High

...

Moulder

Artur

Natasha

Uppermid

Joshua

Eirika

Saleh

Lute

Garcia

...

Edited August 10, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

Well, at this point, I don't think I want them in Lower Mid, but lower in Upper Mid. Also, I'm all for Artur being higher than Lute.

TEB=The Emblem Brigade. It's a Fire Emblem forum.

[Salad Utensil]

Well, at this point, I don't think I want them in Lower Mid, but lower in Upper Mid. Also, I'm all for Artur being higher than Lute.

TEB=The Emblem Brigade. It's a Fire Emblem forum.

Sounds good I agree too, but I'm not seeing why Moulder should get be a tier above your other dedicated staffers (referring to Natasha, Eir!Saleh, and Artur)

[Rewjeo]

Well, he gets full credit for Chapters 2-4, while Natasha shows up and gets equal credit to Moulder for the rest of the game. Maybe less since she'll reach staff ranks later. Saleh and Artur show up (as healers) significantly later. They, however, have combat. Is it worth a tier gap? Maybe. I'm not really on either side of that right now.

[Anouleth]

Maybe move Saleh and Duessel up instead of others down (I think Eph Saleh and Eir Duessel are underrated, but I don't think that the proper way to do this is drag Artur and Lute down without a bounty of evidence from comparative analysis and gameplay), but I don't want to jump a gun here either. The only boss with significant AS is Orson after chapter 15 because you probably can't use Garm yet. Lyon and Riev have bad AS.

Ephraim Saleh is not very good. I wouldn't deploy him after his forced chapters except to be a 3rd or 4th string staffbot (Hammerne and Barrier).

About guiding rings, they are too expensive to buy without the silver card, the only ones that are easy to get are the chapter 5 and Pablo's guiding ring. The one in chapter 14 might mean you forgo some other items

It doesn't.

while the one in chapter 17 means you might end up missing out on a 1 turn finish.

A 1 turn strategy in Chapter 17 is extremely hard to pull off and requires extremely high magic on your warp users, which you will not have. It also requires you to 2RKO Lyon at range, which will probably not be practical (Lyon takes 39ATK to 4HKO and chances are nobody has that).

Chapter 19 secret shop might be okay to visit unless you plan to do a 1 turn finish. Moulder and Natasha might want/need the extra move and magic for more warp range to do crazy stuff in the endgame chapters.

A 1 turn finish is similarly difficult in Chapter 19.

I don't think Moulder or Natasha are ever digging themselves out of 5 staff range.

[Salad Utensil]

A 1 turn strategy in Chapter 17 is extremely hard to pull off and requires extremely high magic on your warp users, which you will not have. It also requires you to 2RKO Lyon at range, which will probably not be practical (Lyon takes 39ATK to 4HKO and chances are nobody has that).

Yeah I just realized even fliers can't hit him at 1 range when I tried it (original plan was to explode him with Myrrh crit. after 2 strength procs), so I guess 2 turns to allow the druid to move out of the way...

Edited August 10, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

Yeah I just realized even fliers can't hit him at 1 range when I tried it (original plan was to explode him with Myrrh crit. after 2 strength procs), so I guess 2 turns to allow the druid to move out of the way...

Myrrh will likely not face combat in Chapter 16, so she's unlikely to gain those levels. Plus Myrrh's movement isn't very good and she'd probably need Boots to pull it off.

[Salad Utensil]

Myrrh will likely not face combat in Chapter 16, so she's unlikely to gain those levels. Plus Myrrh's movement isn't very good and she'd probably need Boots to pull it off.

If you need her for something you WILL use her and get her those levels in order to achieve your means. You also have 4 additional warp range thanks to the 2 additional energy rings you get and Moulder/Natasha/Artur with growths may potentially pull off enough warp range with the help of Tethys. It's just that druid in the way that ruins everything :/

And yes you do have to give her boots and maybe an angelic robe.

Myrrh is actually a decent boss killer If you don't mind rigging ~15% criticals

I'm not claiming practicality because it really isn't :/

Edited August 11, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

Since no one seemed to disagree, I moved Saleh over Lute/Artur and moved Tana into Upper Mid. Any objections to Saleh in High Tier? Thoughts on where Lute/Artur should go? I could see them below Tana, but that could also be a symptom of her needing to go higher still.

[Anouleth]

If you need her for something you WILL use her and get her those levels in order to achieve your means.

From where? Myrrh gets 2 or 3HKOed and double by Chapter 16 Great Knights, the Cavaliers usually 3HKO her or 5HKO her and double. She can't sit on a Forest to boost her durability because she's a flying unit and she doesn't 1-round. And they have a chance to crit her on top of that because of her base 3 luck.

You also have 4 additional warp range thanks to the 2 additional energy rings you get and Moulder/Natasha/Artur with growths may potentially pull off enough warp range with the help of Tethys. It's just that druid in the way that ruins everything :/

Artur may not have A Staff Rank yet. In addition, even if you gave Moulder and Natasha both Energy Rings, Moulder needs to be level 18/1 and Natasha needs to be level 16/1, levels which I'm fairly sure are impossible in an efficient playthrough.

Myrrh is actually a decent boss killer If you don't mind rigging ~15% criticals

Why did you cross that out? It's correct.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Anouleth

[Salad Utensil]

From where? Myrrh gets 2 or 3HKOed and double by Chapter 16 Great Knights, the Cavaliers usually 3HKO her or 5HKO her and double. She can't sit on a Forest to boost her durability because she's a flying unit and she doesn't 1-round. And they have a chance to crit her on top of that because of her base 3 luck.

I just ended up feeding her most the kills by having someone else weaken stuff...she gains lots of experience from just killing something. She's accurate at the very least so you don't have to worry that much about missing (I know it's not ideal, but it's not like anyone else needs more stats/training by now)

Artur may not have A Staff Rank yet. In addition, even if you gave Moulder and Natasha both Energy Rings, Moulder needs to be level 18/1 and Natasha needs to be level 16/1, levels which I'm fairly sure are impossible in an efficient playthrough.

I have gotten him to A range by chapter 17, it was just really difficult (it helped a lot that I took 6 turns in chapter 13 to recruit Cormag). 10/5 Artur has 14 magic two energy rings makes that 18 magic, which breaks the game considering you have Moulder and Natasha for warping backup.

Why did you cross that out? It's correct.

I changed my mind after I found out Lyon in chapter 17 has 1AS, but I'm not sure what people's opinions on rigging crits are...

Edited August 11, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

So where do we want to drop Lute/Artur to, and who will be above the other? I vote Artur>Lute.