Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Salad Utensil]

So where do we want to drop Lute/Artur to, and who will be above the other? I vote Artur>Lute.

I'm starting to think they shouldn't drop...Artur at least (I think both Artur and Natasha can reasonably reach A staff rank by chapter 17). 10/5 Artur has 14 magic on average. You can get up to 3 energy rings at this point. That's 21 range warp which I think is too good to pass up. In fact I think the list should be:

High

...

Artur

Moulder

(Artur vs Moulder/Natasha is debatable either over/under both)

Natasha

Kyle

Forde

Uppermid

I'm not sure where Eir. Saleh should go but top of uppermid seems fine(Good combat isn't that unique and he misses the first fog of war chapter which is pretty much critical for A rank staff building).

As for Lute, I think she should stay in upper mid (she can probably get B staves by chapter 17), above/below Joshua and Garcia. It's better earlygame and decent mid/lategame combat vs. midgame/lategame mount, rescue/healing/barrier/torch, and questionable combat throughout the game.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

The Chapter 7 Energy Ring might as well not exist, by the way. Nor do I see why Saleh would be a full tier below Artur. Artur's Chapter 10 promotion means he will have a staff rank lead but on Eirika Route Saleh can reach A Rank since the Secret Shop is a lot more practical to visit (meaning lots of Barrier and Physic staves). Saleh has higher magic than Artur and superior combat.

[Salad Utensil]

The Chapter 7 Energy Ring might as well not exist, by the way. Nor do I see why Saleh would be a full tier below Artur. Artur's Chapter 10 promotion means he will have a staff rank lead but on Eirika Route Saleh can reach A Rank since the Secret Shop is a lot more practical to visit (meaning lots of Barrier and Physic staves). Saleh has higher magic than Artur and superior combat.

I got the ring and 5 turned the chapter. 4 turns only shows up in drafts due to over-leveled Vanessas and Eirikas or strategies that have high chances of death which I don't do.

Saleh may have higher magic and superior combat, but if you are staff abusing him you forgo using a lot of his combat in order to staff spam. Yes, in theory he can reach A rank easily, but in practice it's a tad more difficult since he misses out on chapter 11 (this is a big deal) and potentially chapter 10 depending on when Artur promotes. Saleh's better combat is only relevant in chapter 15 and 14 which are admittedly rather important chapters, but if you are using him for combat it's harder for him to staff grind.

Theoretically he might be able to reach A by chapter 19 though so I guess he should be higher in high tier as well since his role is flexible and is up to the player to train as he/she wishes (though I'd rather have a warp staff user in chapter 16, 17, and 18).

Edited August 12, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

If you're using him for combat, then his combat is better than his staffing. And again, I don't see how Artur being similar to Saleh after taking resources makes him>>>>>Saleh. Also, 20/7 Saleh with those rings gives him 24 MAG. So he's kinda staffing better than Artur, too.

[Anouleth]

Theoretically he might be able to reach A by chapter 19 though so I guess he should be higher in high tier as well since his role is flexible and is up to the player to train as he/she wishes (though I'd rather have a warp staff user in chapter 16, 17, and 18).

Saleh needs 28 uses of Barrier to reach A rank. Are you expecting him to only use Barrier four times per chapter?

[-Cynthia-]

Barriers not being buyable until C15 is somewhat of a hindrance (or the C14 Secret Shop at earliest). Saleh doesn't any maps with fog until C19 either (so no Torch spam).

Edited August 12, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Salad Utensil]

Saleh needs 28 uses of Barrier to reach A rank. Are you expecting him to only use Barrier four times per chapter?

You get barrier near the end of chapter 12 and you need someone to use it on so realistically Ewan. Maybe you can get two uses out (that's what I did). In chapter 13 you can get up to 12 uses of barrier on someone, but Tethys might not always be in range/helping someone else. You also have 4 other staff users who want to use barrier and realistically you probably want more than 1 person with A rank staves so it might be more efficient to trade it around to get more Wexp out overall. Chapter 14 you might be able to get a use or two of unlock so I guess you can feed that to Saleh as well. By chapter 15 if all of the chapter 12 barrier and 2 uses of unlock and say 5 uses of mend (during chapter 14) you have 85 wexp for Saleh 25 more and he can use warp so spam barrier like 7 times in chapter 15 and you have A staves!

Now as awesome as 21 range warp is for chapter 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and Final I'm not sure how viable the above situation is (anyone want to try it?). On my current play-through I have Saleh midway to B before chapter 15 because I have had him fighting for most of the turns he is being used and spamming staves like mend whenever possible. I'm using Artur because he was almost to B by the time Saleh was recruited and levels faster than Moulder and Natasha and has higher magic on average (except mine is significantly stat screwed). I also have Artur and Natasha ridiculously close to A (like 2 uses of barrier away) going into chapter 15. I had to use my first energy ring on Franz because I had to promote him early (and allowed him to score vital 1RKOs). Artur is also 10/3 (halfway to 10/4) so if he wasn't stat screwed he would have 14 magic or 15 warp range without the two energies rings I just got and the one Ewan comes with.

If you're using him for combat, then his combat is better than his staffing. And again, I don't see how Artur being similar to Saleh after taking resources makes him>>>>>Saleh. Also, 20/7 Saleh with those rings gives him 24 MAG. So he's kinda staffing better than Artur, too.

You're making taking resources seem like a disadvantage when it inherently isn't unless it costs you turns to either get those resources or because they were taken from someone else that would have saved you even more turns if they got those resources instead.

@Anyone: How we gather some data? Make a very detailed playlog (with occasional screenshots or videos for accountability) where you grind Saleh to A staves and minimize turncounts. I feel that way we not only can resolve this with some gameplay relevant evidence, but also make more informed decisions regarding the positions of other units like fliers and utility units which I think will make this tier list better and more accurate overall. The level of RN abuse you want to take is up to you, but no save-states or other tools. This game is actually pretty fun (also a smiley to show sincerity)

Edited August 12, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

You get barrier near the end of chapter 12 and you need someone to use it on so realistically Ewan. Maybe you can get two uses out (that's what I did). In chapter 13 you can get up to 12 uses of barrier on someone, but Tethys might not always be in range/helping someone else. You also have 4 other staff users who want to use barrier and realistically you probably want more than 1 person with A rank staves so it might be more efficient to trade it around to get more Wexp out overall. Chapter 14 you might be able to get a use or two of unlock so I guess you can feed that to Saleh as well. By chapter 15 if all of the chapter 12 barrier and 2 uses of unlock and say 5 uses of mend (during chapter 14) you have 85 wexp for Saleh 25 more and he can use warp so spam barrier like 7 times in chapter 15 and you have A staves!

Now as awesome as 21 range warp is for chapter 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and Final I'm not sure how viable the above situation is (anyone want to try it?). On my current play-through I have Saleh midway to B before chapter 15 because I have had him fighting for most of the turns he is being used and spamming staves like mend whenever possible. I'm using Artur because he was almost to B by the time Saleh was recruited and levels faster than Moulder and Natasha and has higher magic on average (except mine is significantly stat screwed). I also have Artur and Natasha ridiculously close to A (like 2 uses of barrier away) going into chapter 15. I had to use my first energy ring on Franz because I had to promote him early (and allowed him to score vital 1RKOs). Artur is also 10/3 (halfway to 10/4) so if he wasn't stat screwed he would have 14 magic or 15 warp range without the two energies rings I just got and the one Ewan comes with.

You're micalculating warp range. Range of staves in this game is max(MAG/2, 5), so 14 magic would translate into 7 Warp range. I don't think that warp range has ever been MAG+1.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Anouleth

[Salad Utensil]

You're micalculating warp range. Range of staves in this game is max(MAG/2, 5), so 14 magic would translate into 7 Warp range. I don't think that warp range has ever been MAG+1.

Whoops my bad, but having between 8-10 warp range throughout the game I think is enough to solidify high tier.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Salad Utensil