Meg.....

[Florete]

Rolf can double, but he isn't strong enough.

What? Rolf is tied with Aran for the highest strength growth in the game at 75. Catch him up, and he is more than strong enough.

A unit is characterized as a good or bad unit based on their class, average stats, stat growths, joining conditions, weapon triangle advantages and disadvantages, support options, etc. Since everyone and their mother can support with anything under the sun, the support option point is moot here, but all other points are valid, and none are uplifting for Meg.

Average stats are a joke in this game, and joining "conditions" is pretty vague. Other than that, I agree.

[Rehab]

I just think the "fat sack of crap" stuff is stupid.

[Zanryu]

What? Rolf is tied with Aran for the highest strength growth in the game at 75. Catch him up, and he is more than strong enough.

He has a good growth, but even with that it doesn't get it high enough.

Average stats are a joke in this game, and joining "conditions" is pretty vague. Other than that, I agree.

Average stats aren't a joke in this game, and joining conditions isn't vague at all, it's just a simple way of saying what she's fighting around when she joins, level gaps, support gaps, etc. These are the criteria used in debates. Although I don't follow them, when someone goes around saying someone is good when they're no where near it, I use those criteria myself.

[CGV]

(Does anyone count Tanith or Sigrun as ugly? I don't but I'd like to use them.)

Sigrun is OK, Tanith is... meh, not hot, but certainly not Oliver (bleh)

I love Astrid. Best Gold/Silver Knight in the game. However, I don't use Oliver or Danved because Laura and Nephenee are so much better.

QFT

[Florete]

Average stats are definitely a joke in a game with Battle Saves and easily abusable BEXP.

[Zanryu]

Averages aren't based on that though, they're based off of the growths and probability they'll cap a certain stat. What someone does to raise someone doesn't determine their averages, but personal experiences, which are moot for debates.

[Florete]

Averages aren't based on that though, they're based off of the growths and probability they'll cap a certain stat. What someone does to raise someone doesn't determine their averages, but personal experiences, which are moot for debates.

Exactly. Who isn't going to at least use BEXP to raise their units, unless playing on hard mode, in which case you will still use some? The point is, a normal person playing this game who knows how everything works won't look at average stats, but rather a units potential to be good, which includes the use of BEXP.

[Zanryu]

That's not the point. What classifies a character as bad is the averages, etc. Personal experience is, as I said, moot. No matter how hard you try to stuff that in my face, it's the truth. Averages don't change, personal experiences do. What do you use in that case? The thing that doesn't change, thus is more certain and correct. If you went without the babying and BEXP, Meg would become an utter pile of shit, so the only way to make her even decent is to baby, fist her with BEXP, and make her munch stat boosters for months on end. That's what I'm trying to say. Every unit can be good in one run, but if they're crap units, they'll turn out crappy more often than not without special attention.

[Percival]

Without the swearing.

No, the sword armour class is bullshit and should burn. It's horrible. A Marshall is good, but the Sword Armour class specifically is horrible, and seeing as she starts as one, she gets hit hard there.

Sword Armor class can promote into Marshall that can use swords. You've just contradicting yourself there.

I'm in no way contradicting myself. Armours aren't meant for speed, they're meant for raw defensive prowess and nice power, which Meg isn't known for. She's not suited to be an armour in any aspect. If she had stats fitting the armour branch, she'd be a bit better, or if she was a different class entirely. To me I think she'd be good as a soldier branch, not an armour. Also, 1/2 speed is nothing, so don't treat that difference like the Holy Grail, because it's no where near it.

Who cares if Meg doesn't have the right defense as Brom or Gatrie? And who cares if she is slow as a Armor unit? She's much faster than Brom and Gatrie by Speed caps anyways. All enemies in the game can do less damage better yet "No Damage" anyways. Also if that doesn't defer my case then, as I referred on top. She is a Sword Marshall. So she can go for Vague Katti or better yet Alondite to increase her Defense if shes able to go SS Rank for Sword that is. Meg has a Defense of 35, Brom as a Marshall Axe has 36, Gatrie has 37 defense. By giving her Vague Katti her Defense will increase by +3 so that her defense will just barely surpass both Brom and Gatrie's defense. And if you give her Alondite, her defense will increase by +5 making her defense into 40. She will be a Sword tank that surpass both Brom or Gatrie by speed and defense with or without the chunk-load of bonus. So you've not only contradicting yourself once again, but you've just ignore my points of how she is as a Sword Marshall.

Exactly, you FIND that he's the best. But really, he's the worst, followed by Rolf, and Shinon being the best. He can't double fuck all early on and his strength doesn't cut it. Rolf can double, but he isn't strong enough. Shinon has nice power, he's speedy as all fuck, and he's got fair enough defensive stats that he can take a few hits. Leonardo will take one and run off to cut his wrists like a little bitch. Just because someone turns out somewhat decent for you or whatever doesn't make them good or bad. A unit is characterized as a good or bad unit based on their class, average stats, stat growths, joining conditions, weapon triangle advantages and disadvantages, support options, etc. Since everyone and their mother can support with anything under the sun, the support option point is moot here, but all other points are valid, and none are uplifting for Meg.

Leonardo has a total of 380 stat growth. Rolf has 350. And Shinon has 335. Leonardo has more potential stat-growth more than both Rolf and Shinon. If anyone is worst, its Shinon. Also, Leonardo average out the following totals: HP: 55.2, Str: 32.2, Mag: 13.4, Skill: 40, Spd: 31.3, Luck: 30, Def: 26.8, Res: 25. Compare those to Shinon and Rolf's totals. Yes, they might surpass Leonardo but he has more potential. Shinon and Rolf don't negate Leonardo's existance at all. Also, Leonardo's character wins without a doubt. And to tell you the truth, I hate Shinon's character.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Percival

[Zanryu]

Sword Armor class can promote into Marshall that can use swords. You've just contradicting yourself there.

You're missing the whole point. It doesn't matter what she promotes to. She could promote to the fucking Boogie Man for all I care, the point is, her starting class is shit, which makes her become slightly more useless. If she's too useless to use, she won't GET to Marshall unless you BABY her.

Who cares if Meg doesn't have the right defense as Brom or Gatrie? All enemies in the game can do less damage better yet "No Damage" anyways. Also if that doesn't defer my case then, as I referred on top. She is a Sword Marshall. So she can go for Vague Katti or better yet Alondite to increase her Defense. Meg has a Defense of 35, Brom as a Marshall Axe has 36, Gatrie has 37 defense. By giving her Vague Katti her Defense will increase by +3 so that her defense will just barely surpass both Brom and Gatrie's defense. And if you give her Alondite, her defense will increase by +5 making her defense into 40. She will be a Sword tank that surpass both Brom or Gatrie by speed and defense with or without the chunk-load of bonus. So you've not only contradicting yourself once again, but you've just ignore my points of how she is as a Sword Marshall.

Problem there is if you give her Alondite or Vague Katti, you're robbing even better units of a spectacular weapon for a sub par unit. And even that's pushing it, she's worse than sub par, I'm just trying to be nice because you're not getting it, so nicer terms might get it through your head. Also, she doesn't have the defense growth for the defense. If not for her caps being low in her higher growth stats, she'd never get anywhere near her defense cap, as she'd be gaining everywhere else. But because her caps don't suit the growths (meaning the class doesn't), she will ram her better growths, and then start gaining where she has crap growths, or no where.

I still fail to see how I'm contradicting myself. I've never said anything that punishes anything else I've said... she'll at best be roughly on par in defense, and her speed is 1/2 points higher. Oh no, she's got a stat lead that isn't even enough to make her double what the others can't! Again, BIG. DEAL. She's a Marshall, yes, but she's a ShitSword Armour first, which brings her utility down to almost nothing, as swords are probably the worst physical weapon aside from bows, and again, her growths don't match the caps.

Leonardo has a total of 380 stat growth. Rolf has 350. And Shinon has 335. Leonardo has more protential stat-growth more than both Rolf and Shinon. If anyone is worst, its Shinon. Also, Leonardo average out the following totals: HP: 55.2, Str: 32.2, Mag: 13.4, Skill: 40, Spd: 31.3, Luck: 30, Def: 26.8, Res: 25. Compare those to Shinon and Rolf's totals. Yes, they might surpass Leonardo but he has more protential. Shinon and Rolf don't negate Leonardo's existance at all. Also, Leonardo's character wins without a doubt. And to tell you the truth, I hate Shinon's character.

Leonardo has a higher sum of growths, as does Rolf, but who stands with the best stats? Shinon. My point is proven then. Shinon's got massive utility, he gets spectacular stats, great levels, and not to mention the chapters he's in, he can obliterate practically anything. Rolf can do some damage too, but not like Shinon. Leonardo's chapters... he'll be lucky to survive without BABYing.

He has potential yes, but Shinon has potential to be better than his averages as well. Meaning, he has a chance to kick Leonardo to the curb even more than before! Yay!

I never said they negate his existence, did I? You're putting words into my mouth. All I said is that Leonardo isn't a good unit, because he really isn't a good unit. He's not as bad as Meg, but he's by no means GOOD.

Also, character =/= good unit. So don't even bring that up. You're just TRYING to be ignorant now. >_>

[Percival]

-_-...*sigh* This is why I "hate" debates so much, this is exactly why I left FEFF to begin with...

Edited July 11, 2008 by Percival

[Zanryu]

If you hate debates, then don't make a bullshit remark without solid proof to back it up, otherwise you'll get thrashed. >_>

[Florete]

That's not the point. What classifies a character as bad is the averages, etc. Personal experience is, as I said, moot. No matter how hard you try to stuff that in my face, it's the truth. Averages don't change, personal experiences do. What do you use in that case? The thing that doesn't change, thus is more certain and correct. If you went without the babying and BEXP, Meg would become an utter pile of shit, so the only way to make her even decent is to baby, fist her with BEXP, and make her munch stat boosters for months on end. That's what I'm trying to say. Every unit can be good in one run, but if they're crap units, they'll turn out crappy more often than not without special attention.

By that logic, Meg is a great character. "On average," she hits four caps and is one or two away from the others, save magic. But in all seriousness, scenario. On average, Soren as a level 10 wind sage would have 3 stats capped. His average level up would be less than two stats. Would you not use BEXP on him? It would almost be stupid not to, considering how much is given to you. This can be said for other characters. "On average," a good number of characters will cap a few stats rather soon. Who is the idiot who isn't using BEXP? This is why overall averages determining whether units are good or not is complete bull.

[Percival]

No, I hate debates because they're completely pointless to even start. I could just continue on right now and I have solid proof its just no point at all because it is obviously pointless. This is why I don't do debates.

[Zanryu]

No, you don't get it either. You're not supposed to look at it as if you use BEXP, as that breaks the chain of what is most probable to happen. You look at it as is, regular gains only. She hits caps, but not the right ones at the right times. If she can't hit the right caps early, she'll fall behind and end up having to be babied even more or benched, depending on how you feel about using her. Now if Meg were a soldier, I'd have no problem saying, "Yeah, she's alright". But the fact of the matter is she isn't, her class and growths don't match, which punches her right in her rapidly expanding gut.

People say averages are bull, hell, I used to. But if you look at it all in one giant package, it's correct. If you pull out the uncertain variable and leave the constant, you get the nearest thing to complete and utter truth, which would make averages and whatnot more correct than personal experience.

EDIT: Percival, if you have proof, then use it. You tried that with the archers, but it proved my point that Shinon will average better stats, so he wins in one aspect. Him and Rolf win in joining conditions, and the three match their caps with their growths fairly enough. But Shinon wins 3/3 right there, Rolf 2/3, Leonardo 1/3. It's clear who the winner is, no? There's also the fact that bows aren't affected by any weapon system, which is a plus, but it is also seen as a minus in some cases. So there's 3/4, 2/4, 1/4. Still Shinon wins.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Zanryu

[Florete]

No, you don't get it either. You're not supposed to look at it as if you use BEXP, as that breaks the chain of what is most probable to happen. You look at it as is, regular gains only. She hits caps, but not the right ones at the right times. If she can't hit the right caps early, she'll fall behind and end up having to be babied even more or benched, depending on how you feel about using her. Now if Meg were a soldier, I'd have no problem saying, "Yeah, she's alright". But the fact of the matter is she isn't, her class and growths don't match, which punches her right in her rapidly expanding gut.

People say averages are bull, hell, I used to. But if you look at it all in one giant package, it's correct. If you pull out the uncertain variable and leave the constant, you get the nearest thing to complete and utter truth, which would make averages and whatnot more correct than personal experience.

You don't get it. Averages may have mattered in the days of FE6-8, but in the case of this game, personal experiences will all too often leave the player with higher than "average" stats. It's just the way the game was made. You just have to play it right.

[Percival]

Adding to what Fox said: IMHO, I find "personal experiences" to mean something in game-play situations. And really, I don't care about average stats that much. They're not always that accurate. I'm sure Fox might agree with this no?

And I'm not going to spend my entire web-time trying to convince you. So I'm just going to say you win which you didn't but whatever I don't really care anymore.

[Zanryu]

In FE6 and on there are ways to defeat the averages, but that's not the point! You're just saying the same thing I used to say, just wording it differently. We're rating the character, not experiences. If we were to rate experiences, debates would be never ending, as they'd never be constant. If we rate based off of the constants, which is how it's supposed to be done, BEXP or not, we're rating how good the character is.

That was the whole point of this argument, to prove that Meg isn't a great character. I don't give a crap if you're capable of stuffing Meg with stat boosters and BEXP. the point was, again, to prove Meg isn't great, not to deny someone's ability to change variables with the push of a few buttons.

So lets sum it up, shall we?

BEXP and stat boosters aren't taken into account on rating the character, as those aren't the character, those are separate mediums that alter the constants. If you use those in a debate, you're no longer rating a character, but the ability to alter a character to be better than they would were you to play without these tools.

EDIT: I'll say it again, personal experiences don't mean shit all because you could alter them in almost any way imaginable, which means every character would be 'Top Tier', no one would be any better than anyone else. But that's not the truth, the truth is that some characters are better than others, and with all the facts, Meg is one of the worst units in the game, Leonardo is sub par, etc, etc. You can think that personal experiences mean everything under the sun, but they don't unless you're rating YOUR Meg specifically, which I don't think we have been doing. Last I checked, we were rating Meg in general.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Zanryu

[Florete]

BEXP and stat boosters aren't taken into account on rating the character, as those aren't the character, those are separate mediums that alter the constants. If you use those in a debate, you're no longer rating a character, but the ability to alter a character to be better than they would were you to play without these tools.

First off, I often forget to use stat boosters. And for the record, I don't really like Meg anymore than you do. But, like I said previously, by your own logic, by "average stats," Meg turns out pretty good. And, since it's so freakin' easy to alter a character, what should be taken into account is not their averages, but how fast they can cap a few stats so you CAN alter a few levels to make them better. It's too easy to pass up.

[Percival]

EDIT: I'll say it again, personal experiences don't mean shit all because you could alter them in almost any way imaginable, which means every character would be 'Top Tier', no one would be any better than anyone else. But that's not the truth, the truth is that some characters are better than others, and with all the facts, Meg is one of the worst units in the game, Leonardo is sub par, etc, etc. You can think that personal experiences mean everything under the sun, but they don't unless you're rating YOUR Meg specifically, which I don't think we have been doing. Last I checked, we were rating Meg in general.

The only time personal experience don't mean a thing is when we're debating which we aren't anymore. Why they hell do we have to rely on average stats if we can't rely on our personal experience tell me this? What if lets say Meg was to maxed he stats all the time? Cause otherwise I think it means a thing.

[Zanryu]

If you can level her she'll turn out decent at best, but in her condition, she won't get far without babying. That's what I'm trying to tell you. And no matter what should be used in your opinion, it isn't. A character is rated based off of what is constant, no matter how fucked you can make them in comparison.

Also, I usually forget stat boosters too. I recall only using one in my first RD run, and that was because Micaiah was having trouble dodging, so I had to boost her health in case.

EDIT: If Meg were to cap every stat all the time, she'd be Top Tier. But, she doesn't, she's lucky if she gets to Marshall because of all the things going against her, so the caps she will reach as a Marshall won't do much, especially if she's stuck as a level 18 Sword Armour in 4-F-1. She can cap stuff, yes, but again, only if you baby her. Which lowers her drastically. Then the utility. Until she's very high level, she's practically useless. BAM! Sucker punched. She has the worst weapon in the weapon triangle, and is locked to that until second tier. BOOM! Kicked in the knee cap. She's an Armour, but at the start she can't even take a few hits. I don't even think I need to bring up another type of injury, I think you get it. If not, you're blind.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Zanryu

[Percival]

No, what IF she MAXED out all her stats in every of my gameplays?

[Florete]

If you can level her she'll turn out decent at best, but in her condition, she won't get far without babying. That's what I'm trying to tell you. And no matter what should be used in your opinion, it isn't. A character is rated based off of what is constant, no matter how fucked you can make them in comparison.

Well then, your constants aren't very constant. Unless you do a "no-stat-boosters-no-BEXP-run," which might be interesting, you will never see a character with those averages. Even in a "no-stat-boosters-no-BEXP-run," the randomness of it all would alter everything. Most likely stats with higher growths would cap faster than average and stats with lower caps won't get as high as averages say. Take Volug for example: 95 HP growth, the highest in the game. You can practically say he'll cap it by 36, but average says 38. Two levels out of 23 that 95 didn't kick in? If there was a fixed mode, that would obviously happen, but you can almost always count on Volug gaining HP until his cap.

[Zanryu]

She wouldn't do that on her own, only through babying, BEXP and stat boosters. Therefore, it's void, as you've done something to enhance her abilities. It's like sports and doping. They're good at the time, but in the big picture, it's the performance enhancing drugs (or in this case, BEXP and stat boosters) doing the work for them.

EDIT: Averages are going to remain constant, so they're the closest thing to fact. If you don't use them, what can you use? Personal experience is leagues away from fact, whereas averages leave only small room for error in the factuality. There's the randomness, yes, but that's not what's considered. What's considered is if the unit were to follow the strings of average stats, then the joining conditions, weapon triangle, etc. How many times do I have to say it? That's just how it is, nothing will change that unless stats are fixed to raise at a certain point in time and reach a specific number, which won't happen.

EDIT 2: Also, I'd just like to say right now, in case something else sparks an argument, I'm sorry for the vulgarities and whatnot, I'm trying to keep that to a minimum now, but I was raised in a... less than polite family, and I've got my anger and confrontational nature from my mom, so I tend to argue a lot, and when I argue I'm like a walking billboard filled with cusses. So yeah, sorry if you take offense from it, I didn't intend for that.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Zanryu

[Florete]

EDIT: Averages are going to remain constant, so they're the closest thing to fact. If you don't use them, what can you use? Personal experience is leagues away from fact, whereas averages leave only small room for error in the factuality. There's the randomness, yes, but that's not what's considered. What's considered is if the unit were to follow the strings of average stats, then the joining conditions, weapon triangle, etc. How many times do I have to say it? That's just how it is, nothing will change that unless stats are fixed to raise at a certain point in time and reach a specific number, which won't happen.

Like I said, if it was like PoR's fixed mode, average stats would mean everything. But it isn't. All these other factors exist, and they do matter in any characters potential. Average stats don't solve anything. If you let the averages do the playing for you, you're no longer really playing the game at all.