Meg.....

[Zanryu]

It's got nothing to do with playing the game, it's just taking the information pertaining to a specific character, stacking it up into a neat little pile called "ammunition", and tossing it out there. I've given valid points for why Meg isn't a great character, and I've given reason why Leonardo is worse than Rolf and Shinon.

Also, you probably didn't read the first part of my post. Here, let me quote it for you.

She wouldn't do that on her own, only through babying, BEXP and stat boosters. Therefore, it's void, as you've done something to enhance her abilities. It's like sports and doping. They're good at the time, but in the big picture, it's the performance enhancing drugs (or in this case, BEXP and stat boosters) doing the work for them.

You see the stat boosters and BEXP I mention? That would be the "other factors" you mentioned. Stat boosters and BEXP are just like performance enhancing drugs for sports. If a baseball player takes stuff to hit better and run faster, does that make him good? No, it just means he lacks the potential to get any higher, or he's too damn lazy to get better. In the case of FE, laziness has nothing to do with it, it's just they can't get any higher up than they are.

[Florete]

It's got nothing to do with playing the game, it's just taking the information pertaining to a specific character, stacking it up into a neat little pile called "ammunition", and tossing it out there. I've given valid points for why Meg isn't a great character, and I've given reason why Leonardo is worse than Rolf and Shinon.

Also, you probably didn't read the first part of my post. Here, let me quote it for you.

You see the stat boosters and BEXP I mention? That would be the "other factors" you mentioned. Stat boosters and BEXP are just like performance enhancing drugs for sports. If a baseball player takes stuff to hit better and run faster, does that make him good? No, it just means he lacks the potential to get any higher, or he's too damn lazy to get better. In the case of FE, laziness has nothing to do with it, it's just they can't get any higher up than they are.

I agree that Meg isn't a great character, and that Leo is worse than Rolf and Shinon. That wasn't the argument I was making.

You totally can't compare BEXP and stat boosters to steroids. I mean, seriously? This is a game, a digitized entertainment experience. If you find it fun to over-analyze the averages and play the game based on those, go ahead. But average stats can't tell you how a unit will turn out, for reasons already mentioned.

And, for the record, Meg actually does turn out good based on the averages, as I've already said. Not great, but good. You can't argue that unless you believe averages mean nothing, which is why I choose to dislike Meg. She's ugly, she's something of a liability (which usually isn't a problem for me, but she's ugly, so why bother?), and there's Edward, Gatrie, even Brom or Tauroneo to take her place. Average stats? Pass. Growths? Now THOSE are what truly matter. BEXP potential (notice how I said potential)? Not so much as growths overall, but it is there and it matters. There are too many customizable options for average stats to matter.

[Zanryu]

They aren't exactly the same, no, but they're the same idea. Just, one is legal, the other isn't.

And yes, Meg can turn out alright on average, but if she can't get up to that point due to everything else against her, what's the point of using such a high level stat average? She won't reach it without babying.

I don't over analyze the stat averages, and I don't play the game based off of them, I was just using stat averages, conditions, etc. to prove that Meg isn't a great unit, because Percival clearly stated that she was.

Averages can't determine how a unit will turn out exactly, no, but it's as close as you can get without altering the numbers with the stat boosters and BEXP. When you rate a character you rate them as a character alone using only things directly connected (joining conditions, averages, growths, etc.) to said character. You don't factor in the things that aren't related to the character unless you want them to be related to the character, as that's a variable, whereas using the character and strictly related information is a constant. That's what I've been trying to say this whole time, yet you keep trying to make me choke on the same old thing. I'm telling you how something is supposed to be done, yet you're doing it completely differently. That's what's bugged me the most about this whole argument.

The only reason I'm being more polite to you, Fox, is because I've seen you around and have a fair bit of respect for you. Percival on the other hand, I've only seen (as far as I know) today, so I've had no time to find any respect for him. Sorry to say that Percival, but it's how it is. =/

[Florete]

And yes, Meg can turn out alright on average, but if she can't get up to that point due to everything else against her, what's the point of using such a high level stat average? She won't reach it without babying.

I don't over analyze the stat averages, and I don't play the game based off of them, I was just using stat averages, conditions, etc. to prove that Meg isn't a great unit, because Percival clearly stated that she was.

Averages can't determine how a unit will turn out exactly, no, but it's as close as you can get without altering the numbers with the stat boosters and BEXP. When you rate a character you rate them as a character alone using only things directly connected (joining conditions, averages, growths, etc.) to said character. You don't factor in the things that aren't related to the character unless you want them to be related to the character, as that's a variable, whereas using the character and strictly related information is a constant. That's what I've been trying to say this whole time, yet you keep trying to make me choke on the same old thing. I'm telling you how something is supposed to be done, yet you're doing it completely differently. That's what's bugged me the most about this whole argument.

The only reason I'm being more polite to you, Fox, is because I've seen you around and have a fair bit of respect for you. Percival on the other hand, I've only seen (as far as I know) today, so I've had no time to find any respect for him. Sorry to say that Percival, but it's how it is. =/

You're doing the same to me, that is, making me choke on the same old thing. It's all opinionated at this point. I've said my share and there is no point in repeating myself for the third or fourth time. I'll leave the discussion on this: Bonus experience exists.

I hope we can still be friends after this. Felt like another Tashi war.

[Zanryu]

I'm making you choke on how this sort of thing is supposed to be done though, that's the difference. So I'll leave it at this: Bonus Experience exists, but that and stat boosters aren't taken into account when debating a character's worth/utility/etc.

There's no hard feelings, a debate is a debate. Words get tossed, then it's over. Big deal.

[Florete]

Since the argument (I dislike the word debate) is officially over, I'll say this about Meg:

I don't like using Meg because she's ugly. Hell, if she were hot, I would probably use her all the time. Why do you think I love using Astrid? And Mist? And Sothe?

Edited July 11, 2008 by Fox

[Zanryu]

I would consider using her if she was half decent. I mean, I used Heather because she's a hot lesbian. I got lucky too, one time I've ever had anyone get more than 1 over any averages. =X

[Florete]

I would consider using her if she was half decent. I mean, I used Heather because she's a hot lesbian. I got lucky too, one time I've ever had anyone get more than 1 over any averages. =X

First time I used Heather: phail. Second time: WIN! She capped everything, including strength, pretty early on. Plus, she's hot, and she's the character most like me! :P

[Zanryu]

Oh, so you're lesbian now? =O (I kid, I kid. And even if you are, that's cool. xP)

She capped Strength, Skill and Speed early on for me too, some how. My first third tier. I forget what chapter it was, but I remember shoving her at the top of the stairs with Eddie, her guarding the ledge too with a Steel Knife. Nothing survived a round. XD

[Gemini-Saga]

My Meg Turn out to be a Female BK :P

She did great with Alondight in Normal mode.

[Zanryu]

She turns out to be a female BK all the time,

she is the BK!

=O

Now wouldn't that be a kick in the balls? >_>

[Florete]

Oh, so you're lesbian now? =O (I kid, I kid. And even if you are, that's cool. xP)

She capped Strength, Skill and Speed early on for me too, some how. My first third tier. I forget what chapter it was, but I remember shoving her at the top of the stairs with Eddie, her guarding the ledge too with a Steel Knife. Nothing survived a round. XD

bi, actually. I know, I probably sound lesbian all the time because there aren't many "hot guy" discussions around here.

She turns out to be a female BK all the time,

she is the BK!

=O

Now wouldn't that be a kick in the balls? >_>

That would be....no.

[Zanryu]

Cool, my ex is bi, actually. Bi people always seem to be so fun to hang around, you can always find something common to talk about, be it males or females. XD

For males it would be. XD

[sandmanccl]

EDIT: Averages are going to remain constant, so they're the closest thing to fact. If you don't use them, what can you use? Personal experience is leagues away from fact, whereas averages leave only small room for error in the factuality. There's the randomness, yes, but that's not what's considered. What's considered is if the unit were to follow the strings of average stats, then the joining conditions, weapon triangle, etc. How many times do I have to say it? That's just how it is, nothing will change that unless stats are fixed to raise at a certain point in time and reach a specific number, which won't happen.

The problem with average stats is that they aren't average. I don't know the math on it, but your characters are far less likely to have the stats shown on the average charts than people want to admit. If your person has less than 50% gains in an area, you can be next to guaranteed that stat for them will be much lower than the average stat growths chart shows.

Math is weird. It makes my brain hurt.

Just a question because I'm still uninitiated in this whole behind-the-scenes crap: How in the world do people figure out what the percentages are for each stat to increase for each character? Does Nintendo release this information somewhere or do people figure it out by hacking the game?

[Zanryu]

They figure it out by hacking the game data and finding the values for such things.

Also, just because the growth seems low doesn't mean it won't get close to the average. Averages are based around the growths, actually.

Also, that argument was settled, so don't bring it back up.

[Mufasa]

Anyway, I've been using Meg lately, and she's actually quite good. I like her a lot more than Edward.

[Masu]

Anyway, I've been using Meg lately, and she's actually quite good. I like her a lot more than Edward.

R U FREAKIN KIDDING ME!?

[Hibari]

Anyway, I've been using Meg lately, and she's actually quite good. I like her a lot more than Edward.

You don't say. Well, to each his own, as long as you win.

[Mufasa]

R U FREAKIN KIDDING ME!?

You don't say. Well, to each his own, as long as you win.

And that would be the perfect example for the difference between you two.

Anyway, I've never liked Edward as a charcter, or a unit. I can't deny that he's good if you use him right, but I'm always focused on someone else. Plus, Zihark has the advantage of gaining +2 stats. And, he was in Por. which makes him more favorable as a character in my eyes.

[Masu]

And that would be the perfect example for the difference between you two.

Anyway, I've never liked Edward as a charcter, or a unit. I can't deny that he's good if you use him right, but I'm always focused on someone else. Plus, Zihark has the advantage of gaining +2 stats. And, he was in Por. which makes him more favorable as a character in my eyes.

SOUNDS LIKE TOS 2 SYNDROME!!!!!!!!!

Except this syndrome is acceptable since THE MAIN CHARACTERS FUCKING SUCK!

I try to give the new RD characters a chance before I go "RARWRGH POR CHARACTER! HIT THE BENCH RD PERSON!!!"

But I dont think I will ever use meg. She's ugly, she ALWAYS sucks for me when ever I actually TRY to use her, and Brom is better.......and i actually like brom.

[Mufasa]

SOUNDS LIKE TOS 2 SYNDROME!!!!!!!!!

Except this syndrome is acceptable since THE MAIN CHARACTERS FUCKING SUCK!

I try to give the new RD characters a chance before I go "RARWRGH POR CHARACTER! HIT THE BENCH RD PERSON!!!"

But I dont think I will ever use meg. She's ugly, she ALWAYS sucks for me when ever I actually TRY to use her, and Brom is better.......and i actually like brom.

I do prefer Por people over RD only people. I'm more familiar with their personalities, their skills, and they're my favorites.

Byass: Yes

Un-efficient: No

And Meg is really good for me when I combine her with Leonardo. They make quite a beastly team. It's crazy. Plus I'm doing an ugly run-through, so I have to use her. If I don't then I may as well call it: "Just like everyother time" runthrough. Plus there are more reasons to why I dislike Edward. He can't hold his own for shit in the first few chapters. For me he always gets speed screwed and never caps it when he's a swordmaster and Zihark, and Mia always cap speed and skill by level 16. I love Stefan and always bring him to my endgame (with the exception of this time cause he's clearly not ugly.) and I prefer to give my exp for micaiah's team to Jill, Zihark, Illyana, and others that I actually use in the game.

[Nightmare]

Uh...Lyle...it's bias...

[Mufasa]

Uh...Lyle...it's bias...

<_<

Whatever. Byass, bias, Buy ass, it's all the same.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Lyle Dayek

[Masu]

I do prefer Por people over RD only people. I'm more familiar with their personalities, their skills, and they're my favorites.

Biased: Yes

Un-efficient: No

And Meg is really good for me when I combine her with Leonardo. They make quite a beastly team. It's crazy. Plus I'm doing an ugly run-through, so I have to use her. If I don't then I may as well call it: "Just like everyother time" runthrough. Plus there are more reasons to why I dislike Edward. He can't hold his own for shit in the first few chapters. For me he always gets speed screwed and never caps it when he's a swordmaster and Zihark, and Mia always cap speed and skill by level 16. I love Stefan and always bring him to my endgame (with the exception of this time cause he's clearly not ugly.) and I prefer to give my exp for micaiah's team to Jill, Zihark, Illyana, and others that I actually use in the game.

And most characters who cant hold their own at the beginning grow to be amazing later. Edward for me, his speed was insane. Leonardo....ANOTHER character who i will not use after failing so many times at TRYING to make him usefull.

[Mufasa]

And most characters who cant hold their own at the beginning grow to be amazing later. Edward for me, his speed was insane. Leonardo....ANOTHER character who i will not use after failing so many times at TRYING to make him usefull.

Well again, this is an ugly people run-through. Of course I'm gonna use Meg and Leonardo.