Assassins Vs. Rogues Vs. Everyone

[Lokiyuna]

Well I got bored, and I'm new here! Kinda...been reading for awhile but I only just made an account.

Anyways, I have always hated that even with the utility of these classes they seem to get left behind in stats and diversity and come out kind of meh, which I just can't stand for!

So I decided to change a few stats, toss some skills in, and break some universal caps (Luk) while lowering some (Hp) to kinda sorta MAYYBBEEEE balance them out.

Either way I got a bit carried away and they are probably a tiddle to much...

Ahh well...Tell me what you think!

-------------| HP STR SKL SPD DEF RES LUK CON MOV

Assassin (M) 60 22 30 32 23 21 35 20 6

Assassin (F) 60 21 30 32 22 23 35 20 6

Skill: Lethality- Activation rate of (Crt%/2), kills the enemy in one hit.

Skill: Disarm- Stand on a trap to disarm it permanently.

Skill: Lockpick- Use a lockpick to pick chests and doors.

Skill: Sight- Vision in Fog of war +5

Skill: Critical +20%

Slight Revision...

-Female Assassin Received a Res boost +1 to compensate for -5 hp.

-Assassins are the only class able to cap Spd & Skl at 30.

-Luk cap was increased to 35 like the rogues to complete balance (May be kinda useless but hey its there.)

----------| HP STR SKL SPD DEF RES LUK CON MOV

Rogue (M) 60 23 29 31 22 20 40 20 7

Rogue (F) 60 22 29 31 21 22 40 20 7

Skill: Pick- Pick chests and doors without a lockpick.

Skill: Disarm- Stand on a trap and disarm it permanently.

Skill: Steal- Pilfer unequipped items from enemies slower than you.

Skill: Pass- Can travel through enemy occupied spaces.

Skill: Sight- Vision in Fog of war +5

Skill: Critical +5%

Slight Revision...

-Toxin Skill -A Pass Skill

-+2 Str for both Male and Female Versions

-Also -2 Skl for Male and Female Versions

Heatha Foevaaaa. Still.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

No apostrophes.

Rogue not rouge.

Why do Rogues need an extra skill to help them fight better? What does buffing Luck help? Why is Heather, of all people, here?

[Lokiyuna]

I can't do much about the title spoof-ups right now...

But thank you for the heart warming welcome. Haha.

I thought the skill would help give alittle more character to the class, and the luk change was more for the fact that I imagine a thief/rogue as a lucky unit and seemed like a good place to drop some points to set them apart. Shit, could have some use right?

Either way, if they were like this in the game would you imagine they would see much of a change in they're use or effectiveness?

Heathers my favorite rogue, shes perty and I wanted to put her there. That is why.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

You can fix the title. Just edit the OP and hit Use Full Editor - the boxes are right up top there.

Most of the problem with thieves in general is growths, not caps - FE10!Sothe is the only exception I can think of off the top of my head right now. Colm, taking an example, will never hit his middling STR cap on average, Sin or Rogue. Same deal with Rennac. Joshua does as an Assassin, but he's not a Thief so I don't think he ought to count.

Poison wouldn't really grant anything to Rogues. A little DoT isn't going to fix their combat, especially if it ticks during the EP (which it would) since *most* anything that attacks your thief is going to die once you can spare the manpower.

Luck has another problem, related to the first - Thieves don't hit their Luck caps, so raising the caps would do *precisely* nothing.

EDIT: Well, no, not precisely nothing. A Thief fed all the Luck boosters in the game would see an increase of, what, five points of avoid. On the other hand, that's SUCH an outlying scenario I don't think it ought to be considered.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Integrity

[Lokiyuna]

I knew It might mostly end up pointless haha... Dangit.

But thanks integrity for the run-down on the whos and whats-its as to why this wouldn't really work.

Got any ideas for a good combat skill for rogues? Something that could actually serve a purpose other than quickly smiting your foe?

Also, what if poison hit them each time the enemy had to engage in combat, it could allow it to effect the enemy on the same turn... But then again you would probably just be able to cut them down with someone else anyway eh...

{title fixed}

Also.... +1 Mov huzzah!!!!

:p

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

I'll redirect you to this, since you're on the MOV train.

It's kinda the best idea ever concocted.

The thing with Rogues is you're not promoting them for combat ability, you're promoting them for better thievery. Especially with FE8's branched promotions, if you want a Thief-Fighter you promote him to an Assassin - conversely, if you want a Thiefv2.0 you promote him to a Rogue.

[whase]

why do rogues need combat skills? they just need enough speed to avoid and steal, and get some more experience for everything they steal, or even for opening chests.

other than that, rogues should get the pass skill.

[Lokiyuna]

why do rogues need combat skills? they just need enough speed to avoid and steal, and get some more experience for everything they steal, or even for opening chests.

other than that, rogues should get the pass skill.

I agree with the EXP and Pass skills.

Going through the Thief poll I saw that expanding their inventory slots might not be a bad idea either.

Also, I voted goat. Pack-Goat to be exact trololol.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

Also, I voted goat. Pack-Goat to be exact trololol.

Of course you did. That's because it was an amazing idea.

[MacLovin]

What would it take for rouges to be good combat units.

[Lokiyuna]

Updated. Assassins got in on the luk cap action and rogues have a new skill and more stable killing power.

Rennac's growth changes...

-Luck 60%

-Def 35%

-Base Def is now 10

-Base Luck is now 15

Colm's growth changes...

-Luck 70%

-Def 30%

-Base luck is now 9

Also I'm adding heather (Might make her a sprite )

Heather's growths...

-Luck 80%

-Hp 55%

-Str 35%

-Skl 45%

-Spd 70%

-Def 20%

-Res 25%

-Base level is 5

-All base stats are +1 off of colms, besides hp, res, and def which are +2.

Eh?!?

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

Slight typo there: you have Sins capping SPD and DEF at 30 rather than SKL and SPD.

Now you've created a whole separate problem: why would you ever promote to Assassin? Lethality? That doesn't seem to compensate for almost globally better caps (if the caps matter, depends on how you set the thief's growths) and the grab-bag of abilities Rogues now get.

[Lokiyuna]

Check it now, and tell me if thats not atleast alittle better.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

...don't see a difference besides the typo fix.

[Lokiyuna]

Rogues lost immunity (Might make or find a class more suitable for it) and -1 skl.

The only thing a (M) rogue has over a (M) assassin is +1 str, steal, picking without a lockpick, and the pass skill.

An assassin now has +1 skl, +1 Def, and +1 Res to top a rogue along with Lethality.

In the game they both had the same stats as each other, and the same skills they have now. But just with no rogue pass.

Thats not even?

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Integrity]

One-stat cap differences aren't going to make a significant difference. Either the two classes have to be *radically* different or they're doomed to be essentially the same.

Whether or not it's "even" shouldn't necessarily be a question, the question should be whether they're balanced in other facets - and the problem is, stealing *sucks* in GBA FEs. So you have to give Rogues more combat ability to compensate. So Assassins get shafted in comparison, and the spiral continues forever.

So if you're really looking for it you have to attack the root problem. Tweaking caps one point or another in one way or another isn't going to change anything distinctly. If you want to fix things by changing caps you have to decide how important thieving is and, if it's important, cap the fuck out of Rogue Str/Def so their combat ability is significantly hampered compared to Assassins.

[Lokiyuna]

...balanced in other facets - and the problem is, stealing *sucks* in GBA FEs.

So its a gameplay issue not a class issue really...

Basically if I revised say...The way in which you can steal items (Weapons aswell) and the amount of those items within the game increased. The utility (Along with pass) would begin to help create a large enough gap between the two to set them apart? Hell I'd give assassins better caps +3 if it meant they seem and felt more defined from each other.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Lokiyuna

[Anouleth]

If I were in charge, spelling "Rogue" as "Rouge" would be a bannable offence.

[Lokiyuna]

If I were in charge, spelling "Rogue" as "Rouge" would be a bannable offence.

Well its good that none of them are spelled as such right now.

[Integrity]

Actually, when you posted that it was still Heather the Rouge, so okay.

And yes, what I'm saying is it's a gameplay problem. You can't make up for Assassins having any better combat with better thievery by Rogues because there's nothing to steal. Therefore the line has to be Lethality vs. Pick or everything goes everywhere.

Increasing the amount of shit to steal doesn't really affect much - you have to increase the quality of shit stolen. Limiting Keys would help, obviously, as would removing the ability for some of the statboosters/promotion items to drop, requiring they be stolen. On the other hand, we're creating a state where you HAVE to rely on Thieves, and nobody likes FE5.

[Aethereal]

The problem with rogues/thieves isn't going to be fixed by combat. Making a thief with better combat parameters is just giving a myrmidon or merc extra move, pick, and steal. The problem they have right now is a design issue. If their only utility is stealing and picking, then you need a significant amount of good crap for them to steal to be any good. Like Integ said, better items being stealable is probably a good solution. But, increasing combat doesn't do anything except make myrm and merc obsolete. Which is crappy. But it sucks that they have basically crap for combat too. I think the solution is to give them some sort of utility in combat that isn't tied directly to increasing stats. FE7X gave them 1-2 range at all times, which is a cool solution. I haven't played enough of that, as it's only it's demo and only one chapter has a thief iirc, to tell you if that made them significantly more useful, but that's the right line of thinking. Maybe give them the ability to stun, sleep, or poison an enemy every now and then for a turn? I dunno, this obviously isn't a well thought out idea, but my point is they need to have unique combat utility, so they aren't just replicas of other classes, with pick+steal.

I've only skimmed through this thread, so apologies ahead of time if I just regurgitated what other people said. (Whoooo, unoriginality)