The Maps of The Divine War

[CT075]

The grass patches are still too uniform. Make them more wavy and don't cut them off with straight lines.

[Onmi]

This looks done to me. if you guys give it the okay, we'll move onto Chapter 5.

Right now we're templating chapter 5. It's supposed to take place in Thoria, as a Skirmish map (Small map in other words) a rout map against 'Bandit' forces.

Now again keep in mind, this is just a template. no detail has been added yet (beyond a few mock roads)

[Primefusion]

The height errors I mentioned about the indoor map continue to persist. The six pillar room is two staircases lower than the far right wall and yet both walls are the same height. The room just below the throne and the throne room itself both have 1 tile staircases leading to them but their walls have different heights. Speaking of the horizontal staircase, 1 tile just looks weird. 2 tiles would create a much nicer look.

[Onmi]

Hows this looking?

Mask got back to me with Operation Hells Gate with the grass edited.

To me? the map is fine. I may drop off the Fort just before the castle if only to give your army a place to regroup after the previous hell. but otherwise everything looks fine.

Keep in mind I chose Raised land over mountains because you can't put Ballista, or staff units on mountains.

Also don't worry I see the out of place tile at the north west fort I have to clean up

Edited February 22, 2012 by Onmi

[Onmi]

Me and Masked are at the last stages of Chapter 5, adding the mountain range. unfortunately he's asleep and I haven't slept for 24 hours so "Wooooooo"

[CT075]

Ooh, I like. Only thing is that the path near the bridge is cut off and ugly.

[deranger]

The lake is oddly shaped, but the paths and everything look decent.

[Onmi]

Ooh, I like. Only thing is that the path near the bridge is cut off and ugly.

I'll clean up the dirt roads, I'm better at them than Mask, and in response he can actually do mountains. I envy him. hows the updated Hells Gate? and Chapter 3?

[CT075]

Mountains are easy.

I hate critiquing castle maps because they're super-subjective. I, for one, find the wall patterns repetitive and bland, but there's nothing wrong with it I can see.

My issues with Hell's Gate are more with the premise than the map.

[Onmi]

And finally we have the latest version of chapter 1 (What's this 7 shown? 20 all together) Now I'm as sick as posting this map as you are of seeing it. So if there's problems with the forest, circle them. for no other reason so that none of us have to see this damn map again... outside of the game itself.

[CT075]

You're getting the idea with the forest. Still some issues with incomplete trees but on the whole it's decent.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Camtech

[Onmi]

I think I see the problem and when I get the chapter from Mask I'll fix it

[Onmi]

I say again. Fuck the tiny ass map sizes in FE7/8

See what we try to do for maps like Chapter 2 or Chapter 4, is if they have a canonical FE6/7 counter part we try to combine them. Well the plan was simple, lets combine 8 and 29. Seems simple enough but we encounter one massive problem

It's too large for FE7/8 to handle but not too large for FE6 (of course everyone knows how catastrophic that game turned out being when hacked) So instead me and mask have to cut the chapter shorter. Unless someone magically hacked the max map size when I wasn't looking. which I doubt.

I know it's not a big problem, I know a lot of you will say "Even shortened to 36 tiles high, you still have a pretty large map" it's just that things like this annoy me. Hell if I could have larger maps I would combine 'The Sword of Seals' with 'Cog of Destiny' and have it be a pincer map (that's perfectly possible right?)

Although I think having just reminded collective FE6 and FE7 players of both those maps a collective scream ripped through the fandom

[Chocolate Kitty]

no offense or anything, but I hardly think those maps are small, in fact the large ones for FE6 were just stupid because you didn't have a lot of units, so there was loads of freespace(which was pretty pointless), and movement speed wasn't stellar either, adding on the redundancy because all they did was waste turns just trying to get somewhere. like for example, your chapter 3 map is stupidly large. That is not a good thing. All that map will do is waste people's time by forcing ridiculously large turn counts, and with not many allied units, it wouldn't make sense for the map to be filled with enemies either, adding to the huge amount of empty space all around the map. Idc if it annoys you, maps that are that large are entirely pointless. Especially early game.

In all seriousness, if you hate "small" maps so much, why aren't you just hacking fe4.

[Celice]

In all seriousness, if you hate "small" maps so much, why aren't you just hacking fe4.

You do realize there is a factor of scale to be taken into account between FE4 and the other games, yes? FE4's tilesets focus on detailing entire countries and continents, whereas the other games concentrate more on regions and smaller-scale areas. Even the large maps shown here are comparatively smaller to FE4's smallest maps of scale--without creating his own tilesets, perhaps the right level of scale this guy wants is possible with these tilesets, not the ones FE4 provides.

[Chocolate Kitty]

You do realize there is a factor of scale to be taken into account between FE4 and the other games, yes? FE4's tilesets focus on detailing entire countries and continents, whereas the other games concentrate more on regions and smaller-scale areas. Even the large maps shown here are comparatively smaller to FE4's smallest maps of scale--without creating his own tilesets, perhaps the right level of scale this guy wants is possible with these tilesets, not the ones FE4 provides.

Of course, I said hack FE4 because of the map size limit obviously.

[Onmi]

no offense or anything, but I hardly think those maps are small, in fact the large ones for FE6 were just stupid because you didn't have a lot of units, so there was loads of freespace(which was pretty pointless), and movement speed wasn't stellar either, adding on the redundancy because all they did was waste turns just trying to get somewhere. like for example, your chapter 3 map is stupidly large. That is not a good thing. All that map will do is waste people's time by forcing ridiculously large turn counts, and with not many allied units, it wouldn't make sense for the map to be filled with enemies either, adding to the huge amount of empty space all around the map. Idc if it annoys you, maps that are that large are entirely pointless. Especially early game.

In all seriousness, if you hate "small" maps so much, why aren't you just hacking fe4.

I do not hate 'small' maps, what I dislike, is the small maximum SIZE of FE7/8 so I can't do maps like the united CoD/SoS. Which would most likely be a map that divides up your forces and squares you off flanking the Shrine of Seals, fighting on two fronts.

And there's enough going on in Chapter 3 that we needed that much space, yes. really. I tried a smaller map and it did not accommodate the 4+ objectives the chapter needs you to complete.

The finally thing you need to take into account? Chapter 1,3,8 and 9 are all 'War' Maps. Maps I specifically stated would be large, and would have multiple objectives and a larger deployment rate to give contrast to the more numerous and smalller Skirmish maps. that would be (at the moment) 2,4,5,6,7,8x.

There will be more Skirmish maps than War maps. but all of them have something going on all over the map specifically so there's no wasted space. I may be a bad mapper but I know what I'm doing when it comes to keeping the pace. Even if it means bumping up the max movement of units.

[Chocolate Kitty]

I do not hate 'small' maps, what I dislike, is the small maximum SIZE of FE7/8 so I can't do maps like the united CoD/SoS. Which would most likely be a map that divides up your forces and squares you off flanking the Shrine of Seals, fighting on two fronts.

And there's enough going on in Chapter 3 that we needed that much space, yes. really. I tried a smaller map and it did not accommodate the 4+ objectives the chapter needs you to complete.

The finally thing you need to take into account? Chapter 1,3,8 and 9 are all 'War' Maps. Maps I specifically stated would be large, and would have multiple objectives and a larger deployment rate to give contrast to the more numerous and smalller Skirmish maps. that would be (at the moment) 2,4,5,6,7,8x.

There will be more Skirmish maps than War maps. but all of them have something going on all over the map specifically so there's no wasted space. I may be a bad mapper but I know what I'm doing when it comes to keeping the pace. Even if it means bumping up the max movement of units.

Just because you stated such, doesn't mean that it doesn't seem entirely superfluous ;/

[Onmi]

I know what I'm doing. I'd rather not divulge every tiny event that's going into Chapter 3 and would rather let the demo speak for itself. But rest assured I don't wish to make country spanning maps. only to convey the fact that FE6 is a war. If this was a small scale conflict, I would make much smaller maps. If this was a continent spanning war, I would go hack FE4. I'm a big proponent of story merged with gameplay. If you are fighting a war, the game should reflect that, not throw you into a random bandit chapter in chapter 5.

Besides if I REALLY wanted to bog you down? I would make multiple desert maps with huge map sizes. As it stands Nabata is the only arc which gets a sole chapter actually devoted to it's locale. because fuck deserts for bogging down the game as much as they do.

[Chocolate Kitty]

I know what I'm doing. I'd rather not divulge every tiny event that's going into Chapter 3 and would rather let the demo speak for itself. But rest assured I don't wish to make country spanning maps. only to convey the fact that FE6 is a war. If this was a small scale conflict, I would make much smaller maps. If this was a continent spanning war, I would go hack FE4. I'm a big proponent of story merged with gameplay. If you are fighting a war, the game should reflect that, not throw you into a random bandit chapter in chapter 5.

Besides if I REALLY wanted to bog you down? I would make multiple desert maps with huge map sizes. As it stands Nabata is the only arc which gets a sole chapter actually devoted to it's locale. because fuck deserts for bogging down the game as much as they do.

Funny, I wasn't referring to chapter 3 in my last post... I was referring to your odd "war chapter" statement.

Bold: when did I ever mention that chapter or were you just throwing that in for kicks?

I never said you were trying to waste people's time, I'm simply saying it's a bit much for early game.

What I'm now trying to figure out is are you trying to fix FE6's issues or add a whole new pseudo-plot and change essentially everything that happens early game.

[Onmi]

As it stands, the same basic plot happens. And by basic plot I mean "Chapter 1 is Pherae is under attack as Roy returns home from Ostia to find it under siege, Chapter 3 is still about Roy breaking into Araphan to find survivors, Chapter 4 is still about Erik being a traitorous dick" Hell even Chapter 5 is still technically "Bandits are attacking a location and Roy steps in to help"

Only the location is Thria/Thoria (depending on your localization it seems) The place under attack is Castle Thria and the surrounding villages, and the Bandits are actually Bern soldiers pretending to be bandits (Big give away is that none of them are actually Brigands or Thieves, and that one fort spawns a Wyvern Knight around chapter 5) which is a hint that not everything is as it seems in Thria. Leading to Chapter 6 which is still the same. Wagner invites Roy into Castle Thria so he can kill him, Cath warns him. Roy just pieces together that not everything is as it seems thanks to the previous chapters hints (Keep in mind the previous chapters forces are still labeled as Bandits.)

There are wholesale new chapters, like the new chapter 9. or Operation Hells Gate, And then there are the Spotlight Chapters, which are little gaidens that focus on the past or present and a select few characters.

Spotlight: Dieck takes place during the event described in Dieck's B support with Lot (being captured by Bern and tortured) detailing how he broke out (Read: Snapping a bar off the cage, murdering his guard and then killing his way through the prison) or Spotlight: Thite, which stars her, Alan and Klein during the Etruria arc, acting as a vanguard force (The requirements of course mean these chapters are all side chapters, can't have Spotlight: Thite if Thite, Alan or Klein are dead after all)

Then there are things I have to redo completely, like the second-last chapter, which is simply too damn large for FE8 to handle. So I have my own idea of how to handle the end game.

Rest Assured FE6 is still very much there.

Also yeah the Chapter 5 thing was a shot at Chapter 5 of FE6, not at you.

Finally yes I do sort of agree it is a bit much for the early game. But I'm sticking my current course.

[Chocolate Kitty]

Mm, as long as you can see where I'm coming from, there's not much more I can say then.

I'm curious to how you plan to have Deick and Thite's sidestory(not story-wise, hacking wise), my only guess would be similar to chapter 5x of FE8.

[Onmi]

Mask has finished up his mountain work on Chapter 5. When originally going over Chapter 5 for FE6 it always seemed disjointed. For a chapter named "The Fire Emblem" (or "The Emblem of Fire" I'm not picky) it really didn't have anything to do with the titular stone until the ending scene. It also just took place in a province not worth naming against bandit forces long after such things should have been left behind. In short I didn't see much of a point to the chapter.

The chapter now synchs up better with Chapter 4. After leaving Laus and Erik in the dust, Roy heads towards Ostia through Thria so the remnants of the Alliance army can assert control and quash the forming rebels. They stumble over Saul (Monk) and Dorothy (Soldier possibly. Considering the presence of Sue in the next chapter and the lack of playable Soldiers (Treck, and Zealot is a Halberdier) fighting 'Bandits'. The two of them bring up the situation in Thria and Roy agrees to help them Rout the bandits (yes despite the presence of a castle this is not a Seize map. The castle is there for the boss AND to link it up better with Chapter 6)

Of course the player will immediately notice what's wrong with the 'Bandit' forces noticeably that none of them are traditional bandit units. they are equipped much better, and the fort up top produced Wyvern Knights. Upon the Rout, Wagner will come out to invite Roy in and Saul will drop the Fire Emblem bomb shell to the party.

Really what annoyed me most in the original chapter 5 is, Saul shows up for 5 seconds to show he's there, then pops in at the end of the map to go "Oh hey Guinevere has the fire emblem" I'm going to try alluding to the stone more before Saul shows up, he's also playable in Chapter 5, thus him not just popping up at the very end and going "Hey I have plot significance!"

Of course I didn't want to do the "Princess loses plot MacGuffin which is stolen by bandits and thus requires a fight to get back" or "Princess is kidnapped by enemy forces sent to snatch her, fight them to get her back" especially considering Guinevere is going to come in after the Western Isles as a Lord. Best not undermine her now.

So by setting the map location to Thria we gain greater continuity between Chapter 4 and 6, hopefully letting the story feel like it's not just pissing around to extend the chapter.

If there are problems with anything but the roads (I'll be going over them when I get the map back) let me know. Also this is a Skirmish map. meaning it's much smaller and compact than other maps.

[deranger]

Solid looking map, no glaring errors. I woulda bordered at least part of the lake with cliffs, because it looks too calm to be a lake that big, but that's nitpicking.

[Chocolate Kitty]

...Now that I look at it, I see FE4 Prologue O_o