dudedudedudeo Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Is this also a lunatic+ club? :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Units? As in, plural? What use are they? In the land of Luna+/Hawkeye, having multiple units stand side by side effectively increases your HP and reduces the number of attacks your units take per EP. Having enough units also lets you form a wall to protect Olivia, a healer, a Rallybot, or other utility unit of your choice. For Cht.23 and 24, the last Route chapters, having multiple units really helps keep you from getting swarmed as well, because you can draw off chunks of enemies, and Grima is very hard (maybe impossible) to ORKO with just Avatar and an untrained Chrom. At the very least, train Lucina and Morgan. Additionally, around Cht.13 your Avatar's exp growth is low enough that you'd get much more use out of the exp if you gave it to the children who are appearing with high bases and low ILs. There's also a lot of exp to be had from doing child paralogues, and raising parents isn't too hard- having a source of magical chip damage, a ferry or an extra healer is very useful. Is this also a lunatic+ club? :3 Yes, it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Alright, so I'm past Chapter 9 now, and I'm wondering, which skill will allow me to do more damage, Ignis, or Vengeance? And might Vantage be worth getting? Hmm, decisions decisions... EDIT: I hear your suggestions Kuroi, but I'm running a Male MU, so Dark Flier is out. And I think Tomebreaker would be more useful than Luna, given that Luna is something with a less than 50% chance of activating. Still wondering about Vengeance vs. Ignis though... Edited February 22, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Vantage-Vengeance is a popular combo. Vengeance will easily overshadow Ignis, but requires getting seriously hurt. Galeforce isn't strictly needed, but allows female Avatar to start laughing at Lunatic+ after a certain point. Male Avatar would actually like the staff battery more, because he can run up and 2-range bomb a Counter enemy, then if there's more Counter guys in the area than he can handle, the staff botters can pull him back out of range. In the land of Luna+/Hawkeye, having multiple units stand side by side effectively increases your HP and reduces the number of attacks your units take per EP. Having enough units also lets you form a wall to protect Olivia, a healer, a Rallybot, or other utility unit of your choice. For Cht.23 and 24, the last Route chapters, having multiple units really helps keep you from getting swarmed as well, because you can draw off chunks of enemies, and Grima is very hard (maybe impossible) to ORKO with just Avatar and an untrained Chrom. At the very least, train Lucina and Morgan. A Chrom who has been dedicated support for either Avatar, at least where the Avatar is the team's main tank, should have gained enough EXP to allow an Avatar/Chrom duo take down Grima will little issue (just possibly some resetting for bad luck). I've had more than a few runs where Chrom didn't even engage the enemy more than 10 times as lead unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald Ink Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I'm looking to join this club after my current run, but I'm a little worried that the jump from Normal CLA (yeah, I know, I'm a noob...) to Lunatic is going to be a bit more of a shock than I'm anticipating. Is it worth it to try and play Lunatic on Casual, or am I just fooling myself by not even trying to play on Hard first? If I do attempt Lunatic...does anyone have any advice for my avatar's asset/flaw, and any pairings that work out particularly well? I'd be using a female avatar, and would prefer not to marry any of the kids. I know it's not optimal, but it just seems...squicky. I'm thinking of +MAG/-HP or +SKL/-HP for the avatar, since HP eventually caps out with enough levels no matter what and I'm probably going to be hiding behind Frederick until I get access to the grinding DLC maps anyway. I don't have access to Limit Breaker yet, though, so that's something I'm trying to take into consideration. So, uh, yeah...how deluded am I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuvarkz Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 You should try Hard first, and Lunatic on Casual is just not the same thing as Lunatic on Classic by a long stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Alright, so I'm past Chapter 9 now, and I'm wondering, which skill will allow me to do more damage, Ignis, or Vengeance? And might Vantage be worth getting? Hmm, decisions decisions... Assuming you're still doing no DLC/spotpass, skip Vantage. You really shouldn't put your Avatar through more than two base classes because otherwise you'll hit your caps and waste levels, and it won't help that much anyway- unless you can OHKO foes (with a DS), it does nothing, if you Vantage a Counter foe with a healing attack (Sol, nos) it can actually hurt you, and if you're using Bows it won't do anything either. I've even seen a case where Vantage activated, causing a unit to attack before getting hit and losing a bit of potential Vengeance boost, and died from Counter as a result of not OHKOing. I'm looking to join this club after my current run, but I'm a little worried that the jump from Normal CLA (yeah, I know, I'm a noob...) to Lunatic is going to be a bit more of a shock than I'm anticipating. Is it worth it to try and play Lunatic on Casual, or am I just fooling myself by not even trying to play on Hard first? If I do attempt Lunatic...does anyone have any advice for my avatar's asset/flaw, and any pairings that work out particularly well? I'd be using a female avatar, and would prefer not to marry any of the kids. I know it's not optimal, but it just seems...squicky. I'm thinking of +MAG/-HP or +SKL/-HP for the avatar, since HP eventually caps out with enough levels no matter what and I'm probably going to be hiding behind Frederick until I get access to the grinding DLC maps anyway. I don't have access to Limit Breaker yet, though, so that's something I'm trying to take into consideration. So, uh, yeah...how deluded am I? Just try it anyway. Even if you don't make it past the Prologue, you'll get a taste for what it's like and Lunatic isn't the kind of mode that can be beaten entirely through prior knowledge. For Asset/Flaw, it can be beaten with any, but Mag, Spd and Def are usually the good asstes and Skl and Lck don't hurt too much as flaws. I'd advise against -HP because your Avatar's durability is very important early on and it will completely kill that. FYI, Asstes/Flaws don't affect only the stat they say they do- they also raise/lower two others (by smaller amounts). Lunatic is completely beatable without DLC, so don't worry about that. It does make it a lot easier, if you're struggling, but it's hardly necessary. For Lunatic(+), Avatar-F is probably best off with Chrom so that he has a good place to hide on Route maps and Lucina gets Veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranny Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I restarted my Lunatic playthrough since i was extremely low on Javelin & Silver Lance uses by Ch. 5. I went with Classic mode this time. I may cave in to DLC grinding if i know i won't make it through at some point (this is for the sake of unlocking Lunatic+). I beat chapter 5 with a 4 use javelin and no silver lance but what I did is kind of dependent on the whims of higher beings. Best of luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald Ink Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Just try it anyway. Even if you don't make it past the Prologue, you'll get a taste for what it's like and Lunatic isn't the kind of mode that can be beaten entirely through prior knowledge. For Asset/Flaw, it can be beaten with any, but Mag, Spd and Def are usually the good asstes and Skl and Lck don't hurt too much as flaws. I'd advise against -HP because your Avatar's durability is very important early on and it will completely kill that. FYI, Asstes/Flaws don't affect only the stat they say they do- they also raise/lower two others (by smaller amounts). Lunatic is completely beatable without DLC, so don't worry about that. It does make it a lot easier, if you're struggling, but it's hardly necessary. For Lunatic(+), Avatar-F is probably best off with Chrom so that he has a good place to hide on Route maps and Lucina gets Veteran. Ah, I didn't know that about the assets or flaws. What other stats does -HP lower? I see Luck being the main one that everyone takes as their flaw, but...I dunno, Armsthrift is really tempting. I'm kind of terrible at keeping track of how many uses are left on my weapons, even though with the gold dlc I have infinite money, and I'd like to be able try forging some of the rarer tomes/weapons and still get to use them for a reasonable portion of the game after I get them. Maybe I could do +MAG/-SKL? I like crits, but I suppose if I'm dealing enough damage anyway then they don't really become as important. As for the DLC - I figure I have it, so I might as well use it and just be very judicious with my Master and Second Seals until I can buy them. I do have some frame of reference for a Lunatic run in the form of the one my boyfriend is doing at the moment, but it really does sound like something I just need to experience firsthand. I do want to finish my current run before I start a new one, though, and I'm still in the process of support grinding all the kids because apparently I like to find ways to torture myself even on Normal difficulty. I am curious about some of the other pairings, though. I've been trying to do some research, but all I've been able to find that's consistent is that Stahl!Severa kicks all kinds of ass. I'm thinking: Chrom/Avatar (for reasons stated above) Lissa/Libra (mostly for Sorcerer!Owain and so that he gets a decent STR stat from a dad who won't kill his MAG in the process) Sully/Donny (doing this pairing in my current run, and Kjelle is turning out really well. I gave her Aptitude this time, but maybe Counter would be better on Lunatic. Plus, they're pretty cute together) Miriel/Ricken (I might change this since Ricken offers little to nothing in the way of new classes for Laurent but then I think of the MAG he'll have and go weak in the knees) Sumia/Henry (Because I'm taking Chrom, I really don't like her support with Gaius, Frederick apparently is not kind to Cynthia's stats, and two ladies can not make babies. If they could, Sumia/Sully OTP. So Henry it is, and at least he gives Cynthia a good MAG for when she becomes a Dark Flier) Maribelle/Lon'qu (I'm not entirely sure about the logic behind this one apparently being really good as well, but it's either him or Vaike, and of the two, I'll take Lon'qu any day) Panne/Gregor (Gregor seems like he gives Yarne everything he wants in terms of stats and new classes) Cordelia/Stahl (Because Severa doesn't need MAG anyway) Nowi/Kellam (Kellam gets forgotten to history, but he leaves behind a daughter who laughs in the face of your feeble attempts to even scratch her) Tharja/Gaius (Counter seems like it's gonna be pretty important for Noire, even though the image of Gaius being a Warrior is completely ridiculous, but at least she gets the Pegasus Knight, Thief, and Myrmidon lines out of the bargain, which always seem to be a good combination. Shame I don't really like Tharja all that much :/ Alternatively, I could do Miriel/Gaius and Tharja/Ricken and turn Noire into a magic-based unit, though she'll lose out on a lot of good skills) Olivia/Virion (In light of the fact that I'm taking Chrom, I figured that Olivia would still be a good match for Virion, since it means Inigo gets SKL for days, which means crits everywhere. Plus, their support even starts off with her going "oh no he's hot," and it only makes sense that the unlucky womanizer of the second generation is the kid of the unlucky womanizer from the first) Cherche/Frederick (Thinking of passing down Luna and Renewal for these two...they should make Gerome a pretty decent tank) Sorry if I'm spamming...I like to understand why the mechanics work the way they do and how they affect how things compliment and interact with each other. Call it a side effect of wanting to be involved with the competitive Pokémon scene. But do these seem like workable pairings? Edited February 22, 2014 by Emerald Ink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedudedudeo Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I went Normal Cas, Lunatic Classic, Lunatic+ Casual, Lunatic + Classic. My start button is actually ripping off from all of the soft resets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Ah, I didn't know that about the assets or flaws. What other stats does -HP lower? I see Luck being the main one that everyone takes as their flaw, but...I dunno, Armsthrift is really tempting. I'm kind of terrible at keeping track of how many uses are left on my weapons, even though with the gold dlc I have infinite money, and I'd like to be able try forging some of the rarer tomes/weapons and still get to use them for a reasonable portion of the game after I get them. Maybe I could do +MAG/-SKL? I like crits, but I suppose if I'm dealing enough damage anyway then they don't really become as important. As for the DLC - I figure I have it, so I might as well use it and just be very judicious with my Master and Second Seals until I can buy them. Asset/Flaw table is here: http://serenesforest.net/fe13/char_max.html If those pairings are for Lunatic, keep in mind that you won't want to raise very many units- I try to keep it to Chrom, Avatar, their spouses, and their children, with maybe one more set of parents max. Having few units with high stats is better than many units with low stats because all the enemies will just go after your weakest unit. Even with DLC, you'll still have trouble coming by Second Seals early on (Masters can be found in Harvest Scramble). Edited February 22, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I beat chapter 5 with a 4 use javelin and no silver lance but what I did is kind of dependent on the whims of higher beings. Best of luck to you. This was a long time ago. :P i got Lunatic+ beat now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) Ok, here's my thoughts after some tests, and I want to know what you think... Avatar to Lvl 20 by Chapter 3 > Second Seal (Mercenary to Lvl 10) > Master Seal (Hero to Lvl 15) > Second Seal (Gryffon Rider to Lvl 15) > Second Seal (Sorceror to Lvl 15) > Dark Knight How's that? Gryffon Rider is for Lancebreaker and Deliverer as well as to make Chapter 12 easier to deal with, since I have to K.O. a ton of people AND keep Cherche alive at the same time. Edited February 23, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Beastkiller++ = Dead Griffon. There are also plenty of Silver Swords, Silver Bows, and Rexcaliburs in Valm. Go for a Bow class after Hero instead, probably Warrior (Counter and more Str) or Sniper (the Longbow from Cht.13). You might want to consider Bow Knight over Hero so you can start building Bow exp earlier, the extra move also helps a lot in Cht.9 and 10. There are no reinforcements or fliers in Cht.12, so Cherche can either escape over the water, hide behind someone, or wait at the back of the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedudedudeo Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Has anyone beaten Lunatic+ WITHOUT DLC or Wireless content? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 It's been beaten with a lot more restrictions than that, though it becomes significantly more RNG-based the more you pile on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Ok guys, turns out, my plan worked absolutely BRILLIANTLY, especially once I switched back to Sorceror after getting Dark Knight. Seems Vengeance + Forged Nosferatu REALLY tears the game apart, to the point where I can just jump into enemy encounters all the up until even Chapter 23! But now I'm having a problem defeating Grima. I blew a lot of boosters on Avatar, and only have two Staff bots, so I guess that's why I'm having problems? I tried both Dark Knight and Sorceror (each with 4x hitting weapons), and neither of them can seem to survive for long enough to get the job done. What do you guys usually do to guarantee a kill on Grima? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roivann Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 If it's the actual fight with Grima that's giving you trouble, I find that softening him up with Mire before going in for the kill can work wonders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Mire? How does that do any damage? Does it negate his defensive bonuses or something? Anyways, now that I think about it, how about Astra? When you get your five extra attacks, does each extra strike have a chance of Chrom striking as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roivann Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Mire can get damage on him through some combination of rallies, pair-ups, skills, and minmaxing. It's not much, but it counts. Astra (and any other procs) won't activate with Mire (if that's what you were wondering), and no, all five hits of Astra are counted as one attack, so your partner will only roll to dual strike after all five hits finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Shoot...huh. Sounds like Grima's going to be a pain to take down. I can't seem to live past the Enemy Phase when I try to kill him, and yet, it seems to take at least three fights with him to take him down consistently. In case you're wondering, my setup is... Grandmaster w/A Support with Chrom: Max MT and 15+ Hit Brave Sword, Ignis, Vengeance, Deliverer (gets me to Grima since I'm not Dark Knight), and Lance and Axe Breaker (to try and live through enemy phase). What might you suggest? Would Luna be helpful do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuvarkz Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Are you using full rallies? With those two units, Grima can be consistently ORKO'ed via Aggro, Ignis, Tomefaire/Swordfaire, Deliverer, Luna on MU, Aether, Aggro, DS+, RFK, Luna on Chrom. Agressor on MU physical will add 10x0.4x0.5x4=8 damage, while magical should give 10x0.4x4=16 damage, assuming full hits on Chrom he should deal 32 more damage as well (Or 16 if he is using the Exalted Falchion). Assuming GM (before stat mods), you should be getting 40+10+2+9+2+10+5= 68 base might with CG against 40+10+2+15+3+3+10+5=78 base damage. That means each CG strike should hit for 8 pre-Ignis, and each Brave Sword strike should do so for 6. This means, that pre-Ignis procs, you should have at least 32 dmg from MU BEFORE the averaged 2 Ignis procs and 1 Luna proc. Now, given that magical is hitting harder and doesn't get furtherly halved via pavise, we can assume that each Ignis proc will add 11 damage, while each luna proc will add 10 damage. This adds up to an average of MU doing 64 damage, which means that other than the 32 damage from Chrom, he'd need to do an additional 3 damage. Grima is far much easier to one-turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Thing of it is, Chrom never seems to use Aether on a Dual Strike. I always assumed that that was a game mechanic, but the way you phrase it makes it sound like it IS possible for Chrom to perform Aether on a Dual Strike! Is that true? EDIT: Also, this is assuming there's no DLC being used, just so you know. Edited February 24, 2014 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 You cannot use any actives on Dual Strikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Well, don't say I didn't warn you... But this is why you want to train multiple units. Especially Morgan and Lucina. Lunatic(+) Grima is seriously underestimated 99% of the time and not just a quick boss kill. Skills can't proc on DSes, adding Aether and the like to Chrom is a waste. Astra counts as one attack for all support purposes (either all hits or none are DGed, it only allows one DS) so it won't help much there. EDIT: Ninjas. You have two courses of action: add up how much damage you'll get with perfect RNG (Avatar procs Ignis every time, Chrom DSes every time, all attacks land) with appropriate Tonics, and if you can kill Grima with that then just keep spamming until it works. If that's not enough, you could try forging a Katarina's Bolt with +15 Crit, Grima has 45 Lck so you'll have about 30 listed Crit from support bonus + Skl/2. Without the extra Chrom attacks, that might not be enough, but Ignis Crits are fairly potent. Of course, if you don't have an Katarina's Bolts, that could be a problem... At least use Celica's over Brave Sword, it'll bypass Pavise+. If you can reclass to Sniper/Warrior and use a Brave Bow, that's even better (another reason why Bow exp is important). If you can make Chrom a GK, do so for the extra Str on Falchion and the extra Move on Avatar. I don't know if you got Anathema, but that's nice if you're going the crit route. Luna will be better than Ignis, Grima has 50/50 defenses and you're not going to have more Str/Mag than that. Unless Grima does more than 50 damage to you, skip both Vengeance and Ignis (use only Luna) and use something else instead. tuvarkz, where are you getting 0.4 from? Edited February 24, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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