Were Plegia and Valm really credible enough as enemies? (SPOILERS)

[Retsudo]

Chrom and Co. go through the game repeatedly routing Plegian and Valmese armies. Gangrel ends up losing a chunk of the soldiers after Emmeryn's suicide and is then beaten by Chrom. Walhart gets whooped without even making it to the continent he wanted to conquer. Team Grima keeps on getting routed too, with Team Grima honestly not really getting that much done on-screen.

So really, were all of them really all that credible as enemies?

Edited February 25, 2013 by Retsudo

[shadykid]

so, just like every other game except FE4 gen 1 (cause of the ending) and FE5?

[Retsudo]

And PoR. And MotE+Remake. And Sacred Stones.

Either you had maps where you were running from the enemy country or on the defensive. Or the antagonists kept getting things done on-screen.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Retsudo

[NeonZ]

I thought Valm was credible enough at least. Chrom was winning the skirmishes, but they made it clear that Valm had the superior forces, the avatar even has to resort to an incendiary tactic, something that got Micaiah labeled as a villain in FE9, just to get to Valm. It also helped that I wasn't grinding and was playing on hard, so the whole "have to finish this mission quickly before reinforcements arrive" set up, like in the Mila tree mission, actually was true gameplay-wise too. All that would seem kind of stupid if you're so powerful you can just wait for the reinforcements in order to get more exp though.

Don't forget Basilio's defeat too.

On the other hand, yeah, it was always clear that one way or another Plegia was going to lose, and after Validar was beaten, even if Grima seemed like an invincible enemy, the Plegian and Grimleal themselves just didn't seem like big enough threats. It doesn't help that they lacked significant commanders or tactics, with just a bunch of open field battles and not even named commanders by that point, aside from Aversa, who was by far the least interesting main antagonist in the game. Of course, then we get to Grima, and I thought his build up as a dangerous threat was very well handled, to the point it kind of undermined Naga. I also really enjoyed the final battle itself.

Edited February 25, 2013 by NeonZ

[shadykid]

HA

pretty sure Emmeryn's death is onscreen dude

and Sacred Stones, the game where Ephraim captures a castle with 3 other men, isn't the best example

[Constable Reggie]

It probably has to do with the design choice of making every chapter a route/kill boss objective. A shame they didn't have any defend/escape maps, I would have really enjoyed them.

Chrom was winning the skirmishes, but they made it clear that Valm had the superior forces, the avatar even has to resort to an incendiary tactic, something that got Micaiah labeled as a villain in FE9, just to get to Valm.

That's a big problem with this game imo, the game tells you everything instead of showing you. They tell you the Valmese army is super powerful, but you're just steam rolling through everything anyway. They tell you Valm was able to easily conquer everything around them, but we're never shown anything like it. It's all told to you. Also, I don't think setting enemy ships on fire is nearly as heinous as pouring oil directly onto people with intention of setting it on fire.

[shadykid]

It probably has to do with the design choice of making every chapter a route/kill boss objective. A shame they didn't have any defend/escape maps, I would have really enjoyed them.

That's a big problem with this game imo, the game tells you everything instead of showing you. They tell you the Valmese army is super powerful, but you're just steam rolling through everything anyway. They tell you Valm was able to easily conquer everything around them, but we're never shown anything like it. It's all told to you. Also, I don't think setting enemy ships on fire is nearly as heinous as pouring oil directly onto people with intention of setting it on fire.

yeah, but OMG MICAIAH IS SO HORRIBLE LOLS

the rout/bosskill thing really does hurt that though, chapter 18 for example really could've been an escape map

[Gangrel]

Actually, it explains clearly that chapter 21 or 22 (can't remember which one) is an escape map. And it pratically is. You go from top to bottom to get out while defeating the enemy commander. They did have defend maps too, like where they had to defend Port Ferox from the Valm Invasion. The reason they didn't show anymore about that, is because Ylisse probably already blockaded/blocked off the entrances to their continent from Valm after that, so there was no need to go in more depth. I mean, if you were attacked from the door of your home, wouldn't you block every entrance to it after you defeat the enemy? I agree, they could have gone in more depth with the enemies, but it would have taken longer, and probably decreased how many fans continued to wait for it. All in all, the enemies are all 'good enough' imo

EDIT: Also, they probably just did not name them that way to make it seem more like a SRPG, and less complex

Edited February 25, 2013 by USFEAEXPert

[S.C. Amigo]

The best way to think of some of the chapters, like say Chapter 19, is like how the Dynasty/Samurai Warriors game cover their story modes. It's more of a highlight reel of the famous battles, so obviously there had to be more battles and skirmishes in the story, it's just not as famous or ends with Chrom's victory like said Chapter did.

But, that's just me.

[Bearemy]

There were a handful of defend missions, but they weren't outright stated. Examples include the Paralouges with Tiki & Severa.

I'm sure that if I hadn't grinded my way through the game (I've only played on Hard mode), I would've seen Valm and Plegia as credible threats. I do remember having some trouble early-game because I didn't have the opportunity to grind...

I guess my point is that whether Valm and Plegia are actual threats depends on gameplay experiences, because players have the choice whether to trivialize the game or not.

If the story had shown how powerful the Valmese and the Grimleal were, as opposed to just telling us, I think that they would've come across as actual threats either way.

[Constable Reggie]

I wouldn't call Tiki's map a defend map, more like a "kill these helpless idiots as they move towards you" map.

Port Ferox and the like aren't defend maps either. There's a different between the enemies moving towards you and a defend chapter. If they were the same, every Fe12 chapter could be considered a defend map.

Admittedly chapter 21 plays pretty much like an escape map. It actually made Plegia seem like a threat, instead of the rest of the game having us streamroll through everything with no sweat.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Iridium]

and Sacred Stones, the game where Ephraim captures a castle with 3 other men, isn't the best example

Three other men?

Not counting the defenseless convoy and the useless Myrrh presumably hiding within, he took on what was allegedly the most powerful army on the continent, and broke halfway through the army alone. The only reason he had any help at all was because Duessel realized that, holy hell, this man is freaking insane and changed clothes to avoid Ephraim's deific fury. Knoll only came after they'd already won.

Edit: Oh, wait, you're speaking of 5x. Well, count this as another example, then. Still, credit where it's due, he did 5x with a mole.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Iridium

[Raine]

I can't wait 'till the harder DLC comes out-- make Plegia and Valm look like cuddly teddy bears~ It's true, I wish those two were a bit more badass-- I remember getting to the fight with Walhart, putting my swordmaster up against him and saying: "... wait, that's it?"

For a guy who takes out someone who's supposedly badass, takes over a whole continent and wants to come across the ocean and singlehandedly reunite the world under a single flag-- he's an incredibly weak unit in and of himself. The only surprise I got was that he moved to greet me before I was ready-- still, it wasn't so bad since the unit I wanted him to fight was the only one within his range. If I were to try to cover for them, I'd probably say that it was the further exemplify that those armies had been destined to fail in their endeavours and were made weak to embody this. I think that the final few fights should have been ramped up in difficulty in comparison. Final fight was awesome, but still pretty easy for a maxed unit. I'm currently playing through to see if Lunatic will pose any more of a challenge for My Units.

[shadykid]

heh, I played Tiki's map on the offensive with Galeforce everywhere

Chrom was relegated to the last line of defense

[Retsudo]

HA

pretty sure Emmeryn's death is onscreen dude

Gangrel failed to get what he wanted from Chrom (hence why Emmeryn was held her hostage) and a chunk of the army ditched him. Not sure why you're trying to spin that as something to show credibility.

and Sacred Stones' date=' the game where Ephraim captures a castle with 3 other men, isn't the best example[/quote']

We see the Sacred Stones destroyed and the countries holding them invaded throughout the game. Which is what Leon and Co. were doing and at least what Leon and Riev wanted. That shows they were getting things done.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Retsudo

[Gone2Ground]

CH9 was a pretty crushing defeat for Chrom. He failed to save Emm, they were forced to retreat from the larger forces and it was made clear that Plegia wasn't even phased. While I do hold by the storytelling maxim of 'show, don't tell' when it comes to visual mediums like videogames, I do hold the opinion that Valm is a credible threat, although I have been weaned on stories where the good guys win a small battle but progressively loose the war.

For example, there's an old UK comic series called Charley's War set in WW1. During the Tank arc, Charley and his mates break through the trenches and into a German-occupied town thanks to the aid of the Tanks. However, they are forced back into the trenches because the tanks broke down all over the rest of the front. This works as a storytelling technique, as it makes the reader feel depressed that what they previously saw as a great victory is a mere pebble in the grand scale of things, and they are now once again locked in a stalemate.

[Georg]

CH9 was a pretty crushing defeat for Chrom. He failed to save Emm, they were forced to retreat from the larger forces and it was made clear that Plegia wasn't even phased. While I do hold by the storytelling maxim of 'show, don't tell' when it comes to visual mediums like videogames, I do hold the opinion that Valm is a credible threat, although I have been weaned on stories where the good guys win a small battle but progressively loose the war.

For example, there's an old UK comic series called Charley's War set in WW1. During the Tank arc, Charley and his mates break through the trenches and into a German-occupied town thanks to the aid of the Tanks. However, they are forced back into the trenches because the tanks broke down all over the rest of the front. This works as a storytelling technique, as it makes the reader feel depressed that what they previously saw as a great victory is a mere pebble in the grand scale of things, and they are now once again locked in a stalemate.

This might not completely relate to Plegia and Valm's impotence but CH9 is probably one of the worst offenders in the game's story since Chrom is out of Plegia and back to gut Gangrel in what 2 chapters? Imagine if Ike decapitated the Black Knight the moment he stepped out of that house in that one chapter (YOU KNOW THE ONE) or if Darth Vader just outright died during the trench run after killing Kenobi, they basically squandered all the emotional cash Emmeryn had banked immediately.

[shadykid]

This might not completely relate to Plegia and Valm's impotence but CH9 is probably one of the worst offenders in the game's story since Chrom is out of Plegia and back to gut Gangrel in what 2 chapters? Imagine if Ike decapitated the Black Knight the moment he stepped out of that house in that one chapter (YOU KNOW THE ONE) or if Darth Vader just outright died during the trench run after killing Kenobi, they basically squandered all the emotional cash Emmeryn had banked immediately.

let's go, extend the game by 10 more chapters!

[IkeandMia]

Yeah I will say that none of the antagonists in this game ever gave me a feeling that they were gonna wreck my face like some of the other guys in this series have.

Gangrel has no business sharing the "Mad King" title with a swirling vortex of chaos like Ashnard, for example. Gangrel went down like a punk. Batou from Ghost in the ShellWalhart actually managed to accomplish a few things and you got the sense his underlings were genuinely afraid of him. Validar just makes me lol...how can anyone take this guy seriously as a legitimate "king" of Plegia with that look? And openly worshiping the embodiment of utter darkness and destruction? C'mon now.

At least killing a deranged version of yourself was kinda interesting. I absolutely love everything about this game except the antagonists, seriously some of the weakest in the series to date in my opinion.

[Tormod]

The best way to think of some of the chapters, like say Chapter 19, is like how the Dynasty/Samurai Warriors game cover their story modes. It's more of a highlight reel of the famous battles, so obviously there had to be more battles and skirmishes in the story, it's just not as famous or ends with Chrom's victory like said Chapter did.

But, that's just me.

Actually this is kind of how I was viewing it. As is, there's an arseload of battles in the game - there's a grand total of about 23 side chapters (once we get all the spotpass) and still 28 main game chapters - so that's fifty one goddamn chapters.

With that said, because of the "You can go to these Paralogues any time" thing, the 23 side chapters weren't really able to be integrated properly into the plot; if they were battles against subjects of Plegia or Valm at the times they appeared, I think it would have helped the stories and conflicts feel a bit bigger. So because it comes down to 26 main game chapters, they had a plot with the same scale of events and major conflicts as most other FE games - but a little less time to do it in. There's very little 'extraneous' battles in the main tale.

Also, as for the question of an Escape chapter: With the freedom to level endlessly, it would be pretty hard to make an Escape chapter actually feel all that punishing. Or at least that's my thoughts on the matter.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Tormod

[Georg]

Actually this is kind of how I was viewing it. As is, there's an arseload of battles in the game - there's a grand total of about 23 side chapters (once we get all the spotpass) and still 28 main game chapters - so that's fifty one goddamn chapters.

With that said, because of the "You can go to these Paralogues any time" thing, the 23 side chapters weren't really able to be integrated properly into the plot; if they were battles against subjects of Plegia or Valm at the times they appeared, I think it would have helped the stories and conflicts feel a bit bigger. So because it comes down to 26 main game chapters, they had a plot with the same scale of events and major conflicts as most other FE games - but a little less time to do it in. There's very little 'extraneous' battles in the main tale.

Also, as for the question of an Escape chapter: With the freedom to level endlessly, it would be pretty hard to make an Escape chapter actually feel all that punishing. Or at least that's my thoughts on the matter.

26 isn't that bad. Not every Fire Emblem is a content monster like 7 (Hector chapters) or Radiant Dawn, 9 did plenty with 29 or 30 or however many and most of the others barely make or pass 30 with their side chapters.

[Faye]

Maybe it's because I'm not a true veteran yet, but I'm playing Hard Mode, and by some miracle plus some grinding, I'm on Chapter 11, where you get to kill Gangrel, and I'm having the Hardest time getting past this chapter. D8; I struggeled against the Plegian army in Hard Mode, and I shudder to think of how hard later chapters will be, once you start seeing some promoted men sporting Silver weapons. Eep. On harder difficulties, they make a tough foe, I should think. Or I just suck, I guess, but I'm dreading the time when I have to start facing Walhart's army.

[Constable Reggie]

Gangrel's map is probably one of the hardest in the game, as the reinforcements arrive in really bad spots to screw you. Nothing in Valm really compares to Gangrel's map.

[Gangrel]

Actually this is kind of how I was viewing it. As is, there's an arseload of battles in the game - there's a grand total of about 23 side chapters (once we get all the spotpass) and still 28 main game chapters - so that's fifty one goddamn chapters.

With that said, because of the "You can go to these Paralogues any time" thing, the 23 side chapters weren't really able to be integrated properly into the plot; if they were battles against subjects of Plegia or Valm at the times they appeared, I think it would have helped the stories and conflicts feel a bit bigger. So because it comes down to 26 main game chapters, they had a plot with the same scale of events and major conflicts as most other FE games - but a little less time to do it in. There's very little 'extraneous' battles in the main tale.

Also, as for the question of an Escape chapter: With the freedom to level endlessly, it would be pretty hard to make an Escape chapter actually feel all that punishing. Or at least that's my thoughts on the matter.

1. Yes, that is a lot of content, but what's so bad about a lot of content? Should they have left Paralogues out and bored people easier?

2. They wouldn't even help if they were, because then, if they did that, they should of just been chapters, not PARAlogues.

3. That's 3 threats that each take a considerable amount of time, what are you talking about?

4. Since when did escaping a map have to feel punishing? Tying escaping with feeling punished is exactly the example of an emotional-based opinion

5. The enemies are fine, and your argument is invalid

[Iridium]

4. Since when did escaping a map have to feel punishing? Tying escaping with feeling punished is exactly the example of an emotional-based opinion

Please tell me why I would ever bother escaping in an escape map if I could steamroll the enemy and would in fact be recommended to do so for the experience it would give me.

If it's not punishing, it doesn't work.