Lunatic+ advice?

[HeroMystic]

JActually, there's no "try different strategies" in Lunatic+, as outlined by Interceptor. Its just a matter of being prepared for everything, which means everyone having ranged weapons, bows, high HP tanks and keeping track of enemies with Pass. Basically, its having every option open. That is not a strategy, that is just seeing what an enemy has and reacting accordingly.

Which is why I still stand by my perspective that its bad design, because it actually doesn't do anything except require you to check every enemy. You can do this without randomizing skills.

[Redwall]

Well, that sounds pretty similar to how dictionary.com defines strategy: the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations. Being restricted to bows and/or Galeforce-skipping isn't necessarily fun (I certainly don't find it fun), but that doesn't make it any less strategic.

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[Chiki]

I think you guys are complaining because you don't want to think even though Fire Emblem is played for the mere sake of thinking.

Now LTCing Lunatic+, that is a legitimate complaint.

[thefairman]

we are stating the fact that Lunatic+ exposes just how lazy the "difficulty" in the game is. there is still no thought in Lunatic+. every map, it's the same start process: reset until x enemies have y skills. we are forced to think and have a new "strategy" in each map (when in truth, the strategy is just locate Counter enemies and use ranged attacks against them. reset if too many enemies have Counter etc) but that's because the game is literally throwing everything it can at you to make things difficult.

additionally, those defending the mode as "requiring you to change your strategy each time you replay the map", does this mean you don't reset when enemies don't have favorable skill placements? because that point is empty if you load a map, see it has unbalanced skill placement, and just reset.

in the end, i'm upset at the fact the mode exists and masquerades as difficulty...when in reality, any SRPG in existence can simply triple the amount of enemies, give them skewed stats and weapons, and then throw broken skills on for good measure. it doesn't actually change the flow of each map or add anything new to the game. what i don't like to see is people acting "special" because they can play Lunatic+ ("this mode isn't for everyone!"). it is horrendously balanced and designed and IS can hopefully recognize this for future FE games.

the trend of adding difficulty by messing with enemies does not make for a more favorable game experience, it just makes it more frustrating. Lunatic+ looked great on paper: tough enemies and tough skills. but then you play it and realize that tough enemies are only there to mask the fact that every map requires you to rout (no variety) and the tough skills are sidestepped by reseting 5-10 times between map plays.

[Othin]

Have you missed the part where everyone supporting Lunatic+ has specifically said they don't reset for skills? Once again, if you're resetting for skills, it's because you didn't leave yourself enough room to deal with them. Don't blame the game for your own inadequacies.

The difference between those who complain about Lunatic+ and those who don't is quite simple. Those who complain about it attempt to use Lunatic strategies and reset whenever the two skills enemies have won't allow it. Those who don't are those who make their own higher-level strategies to take advantage of the five skills those enemies don't have.

[thefairman]

Have you missed the part where everyone supporting Lunatic+ has specifically said they don't reset for skills? Once again, if you're resetting for skills, it's because you didn't leave yourself enough room to deal with them. Don't blame the game for your own inadequacies.

The difference between those who complain about Lunatic+ and those who don't is quite simple. Those who complain about it attempt to use Lunatic strategies and reset whenever the two skills enemies have won't allow it. Those who don't are those who make their own higher-level strategies to take advantage of the five skills those enemies don't have.

exactly the type of attitude of someone who can't recognize bad design.

i've read several playthroughs here of Lunatic+. they all involve reseting unfavorable skills. the tips in this topic involve reseting. no one has said anything about not reseting here! and furthermore, it's not possible to do without reseting maps anyways...it wasn't designed to be (and a loss in an unfavorable skill placement map is a "reset"). your defense of the mode is laughable, acting like its some sort of accompishment.

those who complain about Lunatic+ (in this topic) have noted how unbalanced the game mode is and how vanilla the maps which allow this "difficulty." you are not reading any points and inserting words in my mouth. congratulations.

Edited May 12, 2013 by thefairman

[Chiki]

There's no such thing as bad design. That's your personal opinion; don't be so arrogant as to force your opinion down our throats.

[thefairman]

There's no such thing as bad design. That's your personal opinion; don't be so arrogant as to force your opinion down our throats.

>exactly the same maps

>no variety in enemy objectives

>only difference in game modes is increased amount of enemies and buffed stats/skills

maybe "bad" is the wrong word. maybe "lazy" is the correct one. try looking at the game objectively.

[Chiki]

Lol objectively? Can you put "lazy" design in a test tube and react it with hydrochloric acid? I don't think so.

[arvilino]

>exactly the same maps

>no variety in enemy objectives

>only difference in game modes is increased amount of enemies and buffed stats/skills

maybe "bad" is the wrong word. maybe "lazy" is the correct one. try looking at the game objectively.

I'd argue the buffed enemies and the extra things you've missed out; different reinforcements turns, moving bosses and different turns at which enemy groups or every enemy on some of the maps all begin to move towards you makes the maps play out differently.

It's really the moves/actions that the buffed enemies prevent being possible in comparison to the lower difficulties that make most of the difference in most Fire Emblem games, unless it's something extreme like Cog of Destiny in HHM of FE7.

Edited May 12, 2013 by arvilino

[Othin]

Laziness tends to have costs. I certainly would enjoy Lunatic+ more if the skills were distributed more purposefully rather than randomly. But even if laziness keeps something from being as great as it could be, it doesn't necessarily make that thing bad, either.

[thefairman]

Laziness tends to have costs. I certainly would enjoy Lunatic+ more if the skills were distributed more purposefully rather than randomly. But even if laziness keeps something from being as great as it could be, it doesn't necessarily make that thing bad, either.

and this is where my (and others') problems are. it is very easy to increase difficulty by simply giving the enemies virtually every sort of destructive power they want and then making the objective of every map be rout or rout the boss. that's what this game did: it went the easy way to simulate difficulty, everything else be damned.

[Othin]

and this is where my (and others') problems are. it is very easy to increase difficulty by simply giving the enemies virtually every sort of destructive power they want and then making the objective of every map be rout or rout the boss. that's what this game did: it went the easy way to simulate difficulty, everything else be damned.

Why should we care about it being an easy way? It works, and it creates a set of difficulty levels that are fun and challenging for different groups of players. As players, what more could we ask for?

[thefairman]

Why should we care about it being an easy way? It works, and it creates a set of difficulty levels that are fun and challenging for different groups of players. As players, what more could we ask for?

...

you must not be reading my posts previoiusly. by going this easy route, it has exposed the lazy design in the game. when every level is the same, the only difficulty is because you are tasked with killing every one of these jacked up enemies. there are no tricks, there are no secrets, there is no variation map-to-map. the objective always remains the same.

as players, we can demand more. IS has brought a lot of good things back in this series (split generations, customizable skills, interactive world map) but other key elements have suffered. Lunatic+ brings this all to the forefront.

[arvilino]

...

you must not be reading my posts previoiusly. by going this easy route, it has exposed the lazy design in the game. when every level is the same, the only difficulty is because you are tasked with killing every one of these jacked up enemies. there are no tricks, there are no secrets, there is no variation map-to-map. the objective always remains the same.

as players, we can demand more. IS has brought a lot of good things back in this series (split generations, customizable skills, interactive world map) but other key elements have suffered. Lunatic+ brings this all to the forefront.

Wait you're saying every level is the same now? It may have 2 map objectives but I challenge you to show that every single level is the same. Here's a question, how is chapter 21 the same as Paralogue 17? What makes chapter 6 the same as chapter 8?

Edited May 12, 2013 by arvilino

[thefairman]

Wait you're saying every level is the same now? It may have 2 map objectives but I challenge you to show that every single level is the same. Here's a question, how is chapter 21 the same as Paralogue 17? What makes chapter 6 the same as chapter 8?

yes, every map structure is the same. open maps littered with enemies. no mountains, split starts, hidden rooms, sectioned off areas -- all maps are one giant area populated with enemies. sometimes you start at the corner, sometimes you start at the middle, sometimes you start at the top, etc. they are completely linear, with the same objective: rout all enemies. the only different map in the game are the two desert maps (Ch8 and Ch9) because of how the desert works. just because two maps don't look the same doesn't mean they don't play the same.

Edited May 13, 2013 by thefairman

[Chiki]

Map structure has nothing to do with Lunatic+ per se.

[XeKr]

Hmm, I actually don't mind Lunatic or Lunatic+, though I still dislike the randomness of the latter in principle. I think I prefer the difficulty of enemies putting huge pressure on your movements and positioning (as in FE9 Maniac, FE12/13 Lunatic), which feels more organic than setting arbitrary values you must meet (as in Funds, Exp rank, etc). Though I know some people feel the opposite way.

There is a tendency for maps to become repetitive steamroll fests but I consider it more an artifact of other intrinsic issues with the game mechanics (namely fast exp gain and high stat caps encouraging superunits) rather than enemy stat inflation or the actual map design. And Lunatic+ does mitigate aspects of those issues, at the expense of other stuff.

I would prefer Lunatic+ style but with fixed skills, or more of the Future Past style with tons of tricky skill builds and enemy variety/positionings (restricted Rescue also matters a lot).

More on topic, TC, if you're planning to grind, it's probably easier to use a Frederick+Chrom and +Spd Avatar brute force strategy to get to the DLC. If not, a +Def Avatar is much better long term. And there are no unwinnable combinations, just ones where it's not reliable to complete. And I think that's only true for some rare combinations in Chapter 1 and 2 with a high density of Luna+ and Hawkeye spawns. Chapter 1 still might be reliably doable with complex kiting tactics, but Avatar likely can't get all or most of the exp. It's still quite hard to say if maps are or aren't doable reliably since there's always strategies out there you probably haven't tried.

It is also exceptionally hard to give detailed advice due to the randomness of the mode, but kiting/turtling tends to fix mostly everything. <_<

Edited May 13, 2013 by XeKr

[Interceptor]

JActually, there's no "try different strategies" in Lunatic+, as outlined by Interceptor.

Oh nice, now we're doing the thing where we put stuff in quotes that nobody actually said. This is my favorite part of discussions, because parrying straw-men is more awesome than jelly beans.

What I actually said was that Luna+ forces you to "use the game's mechanics in ways that you're probably not used to", which means employing things that work in other modes, but are either 1) superfluous, 2) sub-optimal, or 3) nonsense. Things like using bows heavily, or trading away weapons so that people can't counterattack, or intentionally sacrificing units for the greater good, or stuffing spaces full of garbage units so that Pass enemies can't get by, or using a weak weapon that's shot to hell by Aegis+/Pavise+ and relying on a Dual Strike for damage because Counter hurts too much, or breaking a hundred Rescue staves in the name of hit and run attacks, etc etc.

You know, using your brain and dealing with new challenges by using old things in different ways, because Lunatic+ punishes you in ways that make dumb things smart.

[Thor Odinson]

Is L+ doable without grinding? I want to do that since I don't like the idea of grinding before postgame on any mode on Hard or higher since that ruins the whole point of harder modes for me.

[Othin]

Is L+ doable without grinding? I want to do that since I don't like the idea of grinding before postgame on any mode on Hard or higher since that ruins the whole point of harder modes for me.

Yes. Personally, I like to allow a single run per DLC map, like with normal sidequests, which makes things even easier if you want to go for that, but even if you'd rather not, it should be entirely doable.

[Missile]

Since I didn't get no answers about Lunatic + in an another topic maybe I will get them here.

- I want to get 50 000 renown before playing this mode, which character should get stats boosters, Naga's tears or Boots ?

- This time I will used MU with Veteran and second seals, on which class should I reclass her ? (Or should I train her until I get Rally Spectrum for morgan ? )

- Besides Nowi, Lon'qu, Panne and Cordelia, are they any another really good units ? (I heard about Virion, but his bases sucks, maybe he will love naga's tears ? )

Thanks

[Interceptor]

Disclaimer: my style of play may not appeal to you.

- Your best non-Veteran character in terms of stat boosters. Boots are up to you.

- Choice is yours. My choice was to reclass to Mercenary, promote to Bow Knight, and then reclass to Sniper. Infinite uses of Blessed Bow and Longbow. Morgan can get Rally Spectrum on his/her own if needed. I passed down Armsthrift.

- Morgan is excellent, Gregor is really good as well. I like Lon'qu sort of, but if I did it again I'd use Gaius instead since he can become a Warrior.

[Othin]

Virion doesn't need base stats since he can fight from range. If you're getting Renown, you'll have a ton of great bows for him to use long before anyone else can even use bows, and bows are a fantastic weapon type on Lunatic+ because they bypass so many problematic skills.