How should we handle a long-term Lunatic tier list?

[XeKr]

Vaike gives a decent early Pair Up and maybe Hero can help in routs, even underleveled, due to Sol. Hero is also one of the best Pair Ups, giving Spd and Def. Does Virion do anything at all? Chip Wyverns?

Say’ri gives 7-8 Spd even without Support. That’s probably worth something given how high Spd benchmarks get. She’s also probably the one supporting Tiki since Anna has Rescue duties. Tiki with Say’ri and Rally Speed at base is a competent fighter and she snowballs insanely fast. I know she has uses in 23 and 24 at least.

Though if we want to get technical, I think Tiki costs turns overall (there’s also no way Anna is that high). To that end, I was thinking we can consider either optional paralogues as stated or mandate the auto-unlocked paralogues (1-4, 17, spotpass. Turns still count for those. Child ones are optional). More characters, more content, etc. Or is the ruling that they are free?

The latter also gives reason to train more units beyond Avatar and Morgan (maybe?). I want to comment on Morgan vs. Lucina but maybe later. >_>

Maybe split C and give Donnel his own tier.

[Anouleth]

Chrom should be higher on the tier list: since without him, it is not possible to recruit Anna, Libra, Tharja, Gaius, and Panne, the turn savings he creates are very strong. He should be in Top Tier, without a doubt.

Premonition is basically a cutscene. Nothing that you do there has any impact on the actual game.

More to the point, Premonition is just supposed to be a vision of the events of Chapter 23. To count Chrom's Chapter 23 and Premonition turn savings would be double-counting, since they're the same chapter.

[Chiki]

I'm with Redwall on Premonition. It might be a cutscene, but you still can fuck around with it if you choose.

[Florete]

I don't see the problem. There's no logically necessary reason to punish Olivia for being dependent on a combat unit to do the dirty work. Often a Lunatic team will benefit more from adding Olivia than from adding another combat unit since the EXP distribution is going to be concentrated onto fewer units with Olivia present.

Just because she's better than a 14th string combat unit - which is definitely true - doesn't mean she's the 4th best character in the game. Multiple wide open spaces and 5 Move make it difficult for her to do a lot after the first turn in multiple maps, and buyable Rescue kind of duplicates her use anyway, at least as far as movement is concerned. Galeforce also.

Morgan has 1-2 range over her, and can simultaneously have Galeforce (inheritance) and Veteran. Yeah, the Parallel Falchion rocks, but even with Veteran, I found Lucina really difficult to train since she was sword-locked. Promoting her to Great Lord didn't change anything since she would have needed 15 rounds of combat with a forged Log just to get Javelins. I'll move her into A tier now that you mention her perks, but I don't think Morgan vs. Lucina is a contest at all.

Morgan > Lucina is something I definitely won't argue against, but Lucina (Avatar) should still be in the same tier. She has all the classes Avatar does + Lord and getting her to D Lances is pretty easy if you just have her equip any Lance with her support partner. In my experience, at least, the game doesn't so much range that Sword users are very hard to make good use of. These two should be in the same tier.

Flight is pretty much it; she can also take a Master Seal to insta-promote for an extra Mov point, which is helpful for nabbing treasure and ferrying staffbots. She can also aid in cleaning up C12, though this is comparatively minor. I have in mind a pretty Rescue-heavy playstyle, making flying over obstacles pretty useful.

This is definitely not enough to keep her above Sully and Nowi. You're banking on utility in the absence of stats, but it's nothing multiple other units can't replicate, including Sully (and even Nowi) herself, only Sully has been around longer and has better combat.

I love my Wyvern girls, but I am continuously finding Cherche grossly overrated. She just doesn't have the stats.

I think all three of Nowi, Sully, and Stahl have situational uses, but Nowi is the only one who lays claim to being invincible after reaching critical mass. Stahl is way too slow, and gets doubled in his joining chapter. Sully takes a surprisingly long time to get going since she's Lv 2 and gets OHKOed in her join chapter by Barbarians unless she gets Stahl's Bronze Sword. I don't think Chrom is that bad since C5 and C7 nab him easy EXP and since Dual Attack+ nets him a lot of secondary EXP.

Chrom and Sully, barring a few insignificant differences, have the same bases, the same growths, and nearly the same availability. Sully "takes a while to get going" but Chrom nabbing experience in Ch5 and 7 is saving his ass? What is this? Chrom is considered better re-classed to the class Sully is already in (and even if he does, Sully is using strong Lances much faster than he is). Sully can also choose to fly if she so wishes. Sully gives better overall Pair Up bonuses and is using both Swords and Lances from the get-go. She can fix basically any statistical problem she has with the right support partner, an option much more limited for Chrom. She can also reach two spaces further.

How is Chrom winning this? He's better against a few enemy types and has +10% Dual Strike rate. I am not seeing how Chrom is winning this at all. They are so very similar but the advantages clearly lie in Sully's favor.

I agree. How does one playthrough's worth of Renown (~330) to start sound, with 10 Renown being awarded for each completed level thereafter?

That's good imo, if we want to keep it simple. Other things depending, I could also see it starting at 550 and 1000.

Panne's a pretty good Pairbot even without the Second Seal: she gives +4 or so to each of Str and Spd and supports with Cordelia, who is pretty solid thanks to Rally Speed and being a flying Rescue user. With the Second Seal, she can just get Rescued by a staffbot if anti-air appears.

Pair Up bonuses shouldn't be given so much weight. They're definitely valuable, but to give them so much that Panne might make S tier is overdoing it. At the end of the day, Say'ri is an amazing support bot but is at the bottom of the list; unless a unit's support bonuses alone make a significant difference and can't be replicated, they shouldn't be the main factor that puts the unit so high.

I feel like we're talking past each other since we have different views on how quickly to play; for the time being, I'll stick with my LTC-oriented criteria, but you're obviously free to do things your way when you take over.

What do you mean? I haven't argued against Anna, Libra, Cordelia, and Sumia because I assume Rescue/Galeforce, and in the absence of that, moving as fast as reasonable with high chances of success.

@Premonition: counting this is like crediting Lucina for saving Chrom in Ch 13 under the logic that we'd get a Game Over if she didn't.

[Chiki]

You can choose to screw around in Premonition, but you can't really have Lucina kill Chrom. I think that key difference is what matters.

[Redwall]

Chrom should be higher on the tier list: since without him, it is not possible to recruit Anna, Libra, Tharja, Gaius, and Panne, the turn savings he creates are very strong. He should be in Top Tier, without a doubt.

More to the point, Premonition is just supposed to be a vision of the events of Chapter 23. To count Chrom's Chapter 23 and Premonition turn savings would be double-counting, since they're the same chapter.

I think Interceptor and Red Fox are right: there is no need to account for actions that are literally necessary to complete the game (or, if you want to get pedantic on me, "semi-necessary" in the case of Premonition). The goal of any Fire Emblem tier list, whether it is an efficiency tier list, a LTC tier list, or a 0% growths tier list, naturally includes completion of the game as one of the end goals. We should assume that at least one character is fielded and has a weapon equipped, that the Lord is alive, and that either Chrom or Avatar is going to take out Validar, because players do not visit tier lists to determine what is necessary for completion of the game and what is not.

Now onto your first question: I am assuming the player is recruiting all first-generation characters. This is, as I am sure you're eager to point out, an arbitrary restriction, one that many people and I are fond of. Because a playthrough abiding by the current set of criteria will, by necessity, have recruited all those characters you mention, I do not consider it necessary to award or penalize Chrom for his role in recruiting these characters.

-I'm going to update the OP with the new Renown rules: 330 base, with 10 awarded for each completed level thereafter.

-I'll address the character-specific arguments brought up once we settle this question: how low of a chance of death should we shoot for, and should sacrificing characters be allowed? I think going for a 5% COD threshold (compared to the 40% one currently assumed) would make a few more characters in C tier, particularly Nowi, a bit more competitive as long-term units.

[Vapo]

Two things.

How on earth is Olivia so high?

If this is based on being able to complete the game, then Olivia shouldn't be above everyone but MU and Morgan just because she saves turns. She's frailer than MARIBELLE and can't do a thing in combat. LTC does not make characters good in Loony.

As for recruiting all first gen characters: no, what sane person would take the effort to train Donnel in Lunatic? And sacrifices should definitely be allowed, seeing as it's incredibly difficult to do chapter 2 without them, because there's nearly no safe spots. Onto my second point.

How is Frederick required in any way?

It's possible to complete the entire game without using him at all. I haven't done it myself, but even then he doesn't deserve to be that high. Let's make Chrom required, why don't we, since we're forced to use him in every chapter when he's better off as pair-up fodder? I've only ever needed to use Frederick for 4 things in the entire game. Killing a Myrmidon, weakening two Barbarians, killing one, then killing the mage. After that it's possible to do the entire game without using him at all. He helps, but no way in hell does he deserve to be that high, let alone required.

[Chiki]

Yeah, Olivia sucks in all LTCs. Drop her down to bottom tier.

Donnel isn't assumed to be recruited.

4. Save for Paralogue characters, all characters are assumed to be recruited.

I think this goes against the purpose of an LTC. Why recruit Tharja?

It probably doesn't make a difference in the end (Chapter 9 Lunatic takes 3 turns I think) but the rule seems a little ad hoc to me.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Chiki

[Hawk King]

Cherche is too high. There are too many enemies with Silver bow forges, Longbow forges and Rexcaliber forges who can OHKO her.

Sumia and Cordelia face the same problem, only they are even squishier to normal weaponry.

Sully UP she is beastly with a Fred pair up early. Then a Vaike pair up when she gets up to speed.

[Redwall]

How on earth is Olivia so high?

If this is based on being able to complete the game, then Olivia shouldn't be above everyone but MU and Morgan just because she saves turns. She's frailer than MARIBELLE and can't do a thing in combat. LTC does not make characters good in Loony.

Careful, that's your wife you're talking about. Completion of the game is assumed, certainly, but merely requiring completion of the game is not enough to provide any clean framework in which to rank characters. The player is expected to play quickly in order to expose the differences between characters and to encourage him or her to, well, think.

I had no trouble keeping Olivia out of harm's way in my Lunatic run. Most of the stages in the second half of the game are assassination missions in which the enemy won't even get a turn. The presence of buyable Rescue staves makes it relatively simple to keep her safe in rout maps like C24.

As for recruiting all first gen characters: no, what sane person would take the effort to train Donnel in Lunatic? And sacrifices should definitely be allowed, seeing as it's incredibly difficult to do chapter 2 without them, because there's nearly no safe spots. Onto my second point.

This tier list allows for players to use Donnel if they are so inclined. In any case, Donnel isn't required to be recruited under the current set of criteria (perhaps you should re-read the OP).

And, OK, I'll count your vote for sacrifices, but I don't see why making the game easier should have anything to do with it. This is a tier list for the second-hardest difficulty in Awakening; there's nothing wrong with making the player think.

How is Frederick required in any way?

If you can convince me that the likelihood of completing each chapter in his absence satisfies the current chance of death criterion, then I'll change the name of his tier. Having never tried a no-Fred run myself, I can't say for certain. You'll have to demonstrate for me that the Avatar can be expected to grow enough Def to make C1 and C2 reliable.

Regardless, the only character who compares to Frederick in terms of turn-shaving is the Avatar. At worst, Fred's moving down to the top of S tier.

I think this goes against the purpose of an LTC. Why recruit Tharja?

It probably doesn't make a difference in the end (Chapter 9 Lunatic takes 3 turns I think) but the rule seems a little ad hoc to me.

I wouldn't really consider this a true LTC tier list to begin with. The only other playlogs I've seen (those by Red Fox of Fire and XeKr) featured full recruitment, IIRC, so I thought full recruitment would appeal more to people. You're right that it's ad hoc, though; if enough people join you in objecting, I'll remove the full-recruitment assumption.

[XeKr]

Re: criteria. I agree this should be resolved first. I prefer a low chance of death because it rewards more thoughtful strategies and potentially makes more characters viable (note I wouldn't necessarily reject strategies that don't meet it, they're just not as preferred. Much current evidence doesn't meet that lofty and ideal optimum). Recruiting all and not sacing them seems to be more in the spirit of FE (there's no unnecessarily convoluted cases in this game), so if you prefer that then it's fine with me. I can already see potential silliness like C20/C21's reliable 2 turn clear be boosted by mass sacrifices to preserve various utility unit lives.

But yes, it's inevitably arbitrary, and the alternatives may be faster/more reliable. Make a poll or just decide or something. Do people like arguing these particular details? >_>

It would be useful to have the Renown rewards we do already have after C3, when it opens, listed in the OP.

Edited June 6, 2013 by XeKr

[Vapo]

Yes, move Frederick down to at least S tier.

[Redwall]

^I'd love to, but I cannot do so under the current criteria unless you can demonstrate for me that a Lv 10 +Def Avatar can survive C2 reliably when paired with Chrom. In my previous post, I linked you to an article describing the binomial distribution.

[Chiki]

Even if the Avatar can survive C2 reliably, which she can by going on a mountain, Frederick needs to be at the top of the tier list without complexity, in his own tier. Once Sumia gets Galeforce, she can replace the Avatar. The Avatar doesn't shave as much turns throughout the whole game as Frederick does (Frederick saves like 40 and the Avatar probably doesn't save as much).

Edited June 6, 2013 by Chiki

[Redwall]

After 9 level-ups, a +Def/-Lck Avatar with 50% Def growth has a 74.6% chance of gaining at least 4 Def from base (for a total of 4+8+3 = 15 Def including the mountain bonus), and a 50% chance of gaining at least 5 Def from base (for a total of 16 Def). How many enemies are able to traverse the mountain to attack the Avatar, and how many attack at a time?

[Chiki]

Only two or three at a time, I believe.

You have to consider Dual Guard and avoid as well, and the Elixir.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Chiki

[Redwall]

OK, I'll sit down and do some arithmetic. Do you remember what sort of hit rates you faced when on the mountain?

[Chiki]

Not at all. Do you have the enemy stats website? I'm pretty sure that has Lunatic Mode, and you can use this:

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/calculation.html

To calculate avoid, hit, might etc.

I'll probably be doing my own Lunatic LTC playthrough soon, but it'll have a lot of RNG abuse.

[Redwall]

[spoiler=time for maths:]For the purposes of C2, +Def/-Lck Avatar has 19 HP and 11 Def at base (remember that the mountain gives +3 Def/Res). We assume the site's growths of 80% HP and 50% Def. Interceptor's ongoing Lunatic+ playlog has a Lv 10 Avatar at the beginning of C2, so I will assume that.

Recall that in the lower half of C2, there are two Barbarians (26 Atk), three Soldiers (22 Atk), and two Mercenaries (23 Atk). I assume the Avatar has a tome equipped.

Using the binomial distribution, we will get an HP stat of:

24, 6.61% of the time (we get at least 24 HP 98.05% of the time)

25, 17.62% of the time (we get at least 25 HP 91.4% of the time)

26, 30.20% of the time (we get at least 26 HP 73.8% of the time)

27, 30.20% of the time (we get at least 27 HP 43.6% of the time)

28, 13.4% of the time

As for Def, after including the mountain:

14, 16.4% of the time (we get at least 14 Def 90.0% of the time)

15, 24.6% of the time (we get at least 15 Def 74.6% of the time)

16, 24.6 of the time (we get at least 16 Def 50% of the time)

Assume for this example the Avatar has. at least 15 Def (74.6% odds). The Soldiers (Mercenaries, Barbarians) deal no more than 7 (8, 11) damage to the Avatar when on the mountain. Given 15 Def at 74.6% odds, the Soldiers need four hits to kill the Avatar if he or she at least 19 HP, which occurs 100% of the time. The Mercenaries need at least three hits to kill the Avatar in all cases; if the Avatar has at least 25 HP, which occurs 91.4% of the time, the Mercenaries 4HKO the Avatar. The Barbarians are more problematic; they will generally 3HKO, but the conditional probability of getting 2HKOed, given 15 Def, is less than 1% since the Avatar will have at least 23 HP more than 99% of the time.

Note that sacrifices can be made to improve odds further.

With all this in mind, I think under the current chance of death constraints, a Frederick-free strategy is permissible for C2, though certainly not recommended. Any pedants can perform more careful analyses if they wish

I'll soon address the character-specific arguments that were brought up. For now I will say that I'm changing the chance of death threshold to 30%, in order to strike what I perceive as a better balance between fast play and reliability, and limit it to Chrom and the Avatar to permit sacrifices. In other words, strategies that have a 70% or greater chance of not getting a Game Over are permissible.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Redwall

[darkkfan]

I think Gregor should be much higher, maybe above Cherche/Henry and at the very least in the same tier as them. He comes at the same level (10) and there is even a seal in his join chapter. He can become an immediate powerhouse in a team with few trained members with an insta-promo, and if trained he will have a significant level advantage by the time you get Cherche or Henry. Besides, Hero is godly (sure, he won't be taking advantage of armsthrift too much with that low luck but his skill is still above average for Sol).

Aside from that, I don't think there should be such a big gap between Gaius and Vaike. I suggest dropping Gaius a tier and raising Vaike one. I haven't really used either of these people much in Lunatic, so feel free to disregard this, but I've heard of people who have trained Vaike with good results and not so much for Gaius.

[Redwall]

Say'ri gives pretty good Pair Up bonuses, especially for someone like Tiki. I think her availability might give her an edge over Basilio/Flavia who only exist for like 3 chapters.

Vaike seems significantly more salvageable than Virion at the very least. Better bases, better growths, better class set etc.

OK, I'll move up Say'ri.

As for Vaike, I think I will move him above Virion since Virion's post-C1 contributions can be replicated by Miriel and Ricken. I don't know if Vaike should be that high since his Pairbotting is only really useful in C2 (Panne gives better bonuses), and since he wants a contested Second Seal (Renown is now in play).

Just because she's better than a 14th string combat unit - which is definitely true - doesn't mean she's the 4th best character in the game. Multiple wide open spaces and 5 Move make it difficult for her to do a lot after the first turn in multiple maps, and buyable Rescue kind of duplicates her use anyway, at least as far as movement is concerned. Galeforce also.

If anything, buyable Rescue improves her use. It effectively gives her as much mobility as anyone else on your team, allowing her to get in position to assist with clean player-phase KOs on beefcakes like Walhart and Grima. In assassination levels where it is not necessary to have your boss-killer get two rounds of PP combat, she in turn can improve the characters capable of using buyable Rescue by increasing their own effective mobility.

As for hiding her in rout maps, it is generally not so hard. The mandatory rout maps after and including her join time are: C11, C12, C15, C23, and C24. C11 gives the player tons of breathing room; C12 tends to favor keeping most units, including your one or two Rescue users who can bail out Olivia, huddled up near the bottom while your main badass goes head-hunting; C15 gives you the space immediately above the stairs which the player can seize turn 1 player phase; and C24 allows enough space as long as the player is aggressive and uses enemy-phase counters to prevent Wyverns from threatening the squishies on the LHS of the map. I agree that C23 can be a problem, though.

The main advantage I see Olivia having over some of the less-competitive combat units is she saves turns in every context I can imagine, even if the player is restricting himself or herself to using suboptimal units; meanwhile, Sully saves only a few turns unless we restrict ourselves to those contexts which feature her as a long-term combatant.

Morgan > Lucina is something I definitely won't argue against, but Lucina (Avatar) should still be in the same tier. She has all the classes Avatar does + Lord and getting her to D Lances is pretty easy if you just have her equip any Lance with her support partner. In my experience, at least, the game doesn't so much range that Sword users are very hard to make good use of. These two should be in the same tier.

Lucina's ability to reclass to whatever she wants is not a huge boon, in my opinion. If she reclasses to a tome-using class in an attempt to match Morgan's enemy-phase countering, she's stuck with E tomes. If she reclasses to a Cavalier, she loses out on Spd: the Paladin class has three less base Spd than does the Great Lord (F) class. I think this can often make a difference since, in my own run, a Chrom Pair Up, Spd Tonic, and a mom who passed down a fair bit of Spd due to being in the Pegasus tree, just barely allowed 16/1 Lucina to double the C17 War Monks (if she had two fewer points, she wouldn't have doubled).

As for her pseudo sword-lock, I found it problematic in C15, which features Spears, tomes, and Tomahawks scattered near the starting point. After C15, she has a hard time gaining EXP since the mandatory levels tend to be assassinations.

This is definitely not enough to keep her above Sully and Nowi. You're banking on utility in the absence of stats, but it's nothing multiple other units can't replicate, including Sully (and even Nowi) herself, only Sully has been around longer and has better combat.

I love my Wyvern girls, but I am continuously finding Cherche grossly overrated. She just doesn't have the stats.

In order to reclass to Wyvern Rider, both Sully and Nowi require a fair amount of EXP which will not come without opportunity cost; they won't be doubling anything save for Knights for a long, long time. Cherche requires only a Master Seal and zero EXP investment to get 8 Mov, something that is useful not just for ferrying staffbots in C16-19, but for getting difficult-to-reach treasure chests like in C14 and C18. Cordelia can replicate this (which is why she is above Cherche), but often she will be busy either using Rescue or using Rally Speed.

I will move Cherche down, though only slightly.

Chrom and Sully, barring a few insignificant differences, have the same bases, the same growths, and nearly the same availability. Sully "takes a while to get going" but Chrom nabbing experience in Ch5 and 7 is saving his ass?

I actually do not disagree (much): Chrom isn't much of a lead combatant when he's not killing Wyverns. Now that I think about it, Chrom probably wasn't doubling Wyverns before C9, though they were still clean 2HKOs. Chrom was Lv 12/1 at the end of my run, and I doubt he would have gained much more EXP were I playing more reliably (like, Lv 20/1 at best). However...

What is this? Chrom is considered better re-classed to the class Sully is already in (and even if he does, Sully is using strong Lances much faster than he is). Sully can also choose to fly if she so wishes. Sully gives better overall Pair Up bonuses and is using both Swords and Lances from the get-go. She can fix basically any statistical problem she has with the right support partner, an option much more limited for Chrom. She can also reach two spaces further.

How is Chrom winning this? He's better against a few enemy types and has +10% Dual Strike rate. I am not seeing how Chrom is winning this at all. They are so very similar but the advantages clearly lie in Sully's favor.

Chrom's main advantages, in my opinion, are not only his good supporting skills, +Spd bonuses (which are huge, IMO), and Wyvern-slaying, but also his Grima-killing abilities. Although Lucina generally has higher Skl than Chrom, she's not getting an S support (for Dual Attacks) with anyone capable of lasting more than a round against Grima; for this reason, her effective accuracy against Grima is not going to be so good. The Parallel Falchion winds up having 9 less Mt (translating to a 4-5 reduction in damage for each hit) than does the Exalted Falchion after accounting for Grima's weakness.

If Chrom's Exalted Falchion hit Wyverns for effective damage but not Grima, I'd probably rank him near Sully.

Pair Up bonuses shouldn't be given so much weight. They're definitely valuable, but to give them so much that Panne might make S tier is overdoing it. At the end of the day, Say'ri is an amazing support bot but is at the bottom of the list; unless a unit's support bonuses alone make a significant difference and can't be replicated, they shouldn't be the main factor that puts the unit so high.

Okay, I'll move Panne down to the higher part of B tier. Now that the Renown Second Seal is in play, I think getting Panne up to speed should not be so bad if the player is so inclined.

Cherche is too high. There are too many enemies with Silver bow forges, Longbow forges and Rexcaliber forges who can OHKO her.

Sumia and Cordelia face the same problem, only they are even squishier to normal weaponry.

Sully UP she is beastly with a Fred pair up early. Then a Vaike pair up when she gets up to speed.

Right, Cherche will be moved down.

I'm not considering Sumia's worth as a lead combatant; we agree that she does that terribly. Without her flight and Spd boosts, however, Frederick becomes a lot worse.

I agree that Cordelia is squishy, but I find her combat stats just enough to get her to a level where she can promote and start spamming Rescue and Rally Speed.

While Sully may or may not be too low (I don't think she is), I don't think a Frederick Pair Up is the way to argue her upwards. Eschewing the Sumia/Fred combo means that both C5 (Fred needs +Spd to double Wyverns) and P2 (you want to cross the river with Fred ASAP) get cleared more slowly.

I think Gregor should be much higher, maybe above Cherche/Henry and at the very least in the same tier as them. He comes at the same level (10) and there is even a seal in his join chapter. He can become an immediate powerhouse in a team with few trained members with an insta-promo, and if trained he will have a significant level advantage by the time you get Cherche or Henry. Besides, Hero is godly (sure, he won't be taking advantage of armsthrift too much with that low luck but his skill is still above average for Sol).

Aside from that, I don't think there should be such a big gap between Gaius and Vaike. I suggest dropping Gaius a tier and raising Vaike one. I haven't really used either of these people much in Lunatic, so feel free to disregard this, but I've heard of people who have trained Vaike with good results and not so much for Gaius.

Gregor's strong, and can do some useful things in the early levels (C8, P3) regardless of whether the player chooses to make him a long-term unit. However, given the pace assumed in the tier list, insta-promotion is generally bad on combat units who don't have Veteran, except for perhaps Cordelia, who isn't really a combat unit. He can take one of two pre-C12 Second Seals, but it is one that units like Avatar and Panne also want.

Gaius' Locktouch and +1 Mov make him a decent character no matter which units the player chooses to train. I cannot say the same about Vaike, whose +4 Str is useful in C2, outclassed by Panne's after C6, and unnecessary between those chapters.

I think I will drop Gaius slightly since the +1 Mov only helps for treasure chests, and not so much for boss-killing since the bosses are strong enough to warrant +Str/Mag partners.

poll added: What does everyone think about buying from Spotpass characters? Keep in mind that Europe doesn't yet have everything, that not every Internet user has access to wireless, and that allowing these items can make more characters competitive as long-term combatants.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

It depends on if we ask too much by asking a tier list viewer to go to McDonalds or somewhere else to get wireless.

[Florete]

As for hiding her in rout maps, it is generally not so hard. The mandatory rout maps after and including her join time are: C11, C12, C15, C23, and C24.

I didn't say anything about rout maps; just because a map is boss kill doesn't mean it can just be cleared in one or two turns. And of those that can be, like 14 and 19, Olivia often doesn't need to be used at all anyway.

However, I'm not going to bother with Olivia anymore because arguing Dancers is hella annoying.

Lucina's ability to reclass to whatever she wants is not a huge boon, in my opinion. If she reclasses to a tome-using class in an attempt to match Morgan's enemy-phase countering, she's stuck with E tomes. If she reclasses to a Cavalier, she loses out on Spd: the Paladin class has three less base Spd than does the Great Lord (F) class. I think this can often make a difference since, in my own run, a Chrom Pair Up, Spd Tonic, and a mom who passed down a fair bit of Spd due to being in the Pegasus tree, just barely allowed 16/1 Lucina to double the C17 War Monks (if she had two fewer points, she wouldn't have doubled).

That's not the most fair comparison; Ch 17 is where the difficult spikes and many units are going to perform worse at that point. Avatar!Lucina's 1-2 range problem just doesn't last long enough to justify her being a full tier or more below Morgan.

In order to reclass to Wyvern Rider, both Sully and Nowi require a fair amount of EXP which will not come without opportunity cost; they won't be doubling anything save for Knights for a long, long time.

Not many are better. This is Lunatic. Sully gets up to speed much faster than most units, including everyone below S tier (yes, that includes Chrom). She'll be more durable and powerful than Cordelia and Sumia. Sully way more than makes up for any opportunity cost she takes.

Forgot even A tier for now. Lon'qu? Panne? Gaius (what the fuck?)? These people are not better than Sully no matter how you slice it. I can even say from my Lunatic log that Gaius is really tough to get going and just isn't that good, even with a +Str/Def partner.

Cherche requires only a Master Seal and zero EXP investment to get 8 Mov, something that is useful not just for ferrying staffbots in C16-19, but for getting difficult-to-reach treasure chests like in C14 and C18. Cordelia can replicate this (which is why she is above Cherche), but often she will be busy either using Rescue or using Rally Speed.

To be completely honest, Cherche's position in itself isn't that bad considering what her tier is, it's just that she's above better units. Nowi and Sully need to go up.

Chrom's main advantages, in my opinion, are not only his good supporting skills, +Spd bonuses (which are huge, IMO), and Wyvern-slaying, but also his Grima-killing abilities. Although Lucina generally has higher Skl than Chrom, she's not getting an S support (for Dual Attacks) with anyone capable of lasting more than a round against Grima; for this reason, her effective accuracy against Grima is not going to be so good. The Parallel Falchion winds up having 9 less Mt (translating to a 4-5 reduction in damage for each hit) than does the Exalted Falchion after accounting for Grima's weakness.

If Chrom's Exalted Falchion hit Wyverns for effective damage but not Grima, I'd probably rank him near Sully.

Killing Grima is obviously a good thing, but...it's one enemy. Killing one enemy shouldn't put him over someone who's better than him for 90% of the game, especially when he really can't even do it alone. You're pretty much going to need to team up against Grima.

Lucina's S rank doesn't need to survive two rounds against Grima because that shouldn't happen. If things are taking that long, you'll be in deeper trouble. Also, Fortify.

I'm not considering Sumia's worth as a lead combatant; we agree that she does that terribly. Without her flight and Spd boosts, however, Frederick becomes a lot worse.

Wait...Sumia is in S tier with just flight and support boosts? I avoided talking about her because I wanted to avoid a Galeforce discussion, but this is ridiculous.

While Sully may or may not be too low (I don't think she is), I don't think a Frederick Pair Up is the way to argue her upwards. Eschewing the Sumia/Fred combo means that both C5 (Fred needs +Spd to double Wyverns) and P2 (you want to cross the river with Fred ASAP) get cleared more slowly.

Fred can take a different partner for a map.

poll added: What does everyone think about buying from Spotpass characters? Keep in mind that Europe doesn't yet have everything, that not every Internet user has access to wireless, and that allowing these items can make more characters competitive as long-term combatants.

I say yes.

[XeKr]

Re: Spotpass. If yes, does this also imply we are allowing the Bonus Box legendaries too? The ability to hire Spotpass units if we wish to spend the turns/gold? How much is Camus anyway? >_>

Introducing easy access to Celica's Gale/Braves/Mire/Legendaries (Book of Naga. :O) could certainly shake things up though...

I don't really mind (the items at least), but the consequences are hard to gauge.

[Chiki]

Hiring Spotpass units goes against the purpose of the tier list.

Also, does Spotpass really sell legendaries?