Is Armsthrift overrated?

[Chiki]

Mercenary is fairly practical in Lunatic+ as a pathway to either Sol or Bow Knight. Reclassing as a promoted unit imposes a high penalty on the internal level, so it's preferable to instead get to the Hero class by means of a Master Seal rather than a Second Seal.

Veterans make good use of Armsthrift to preserve +5 Mt forges since they will flirt with the Luck cap before too long. Preserving these forges isn't anything special during maingame campaigns on the lower difficulty settings, but dealing with the rather strong L+ enemies can be a bit easier with abundant +5 Mt forges. A max-forged Longbow has 14 Mt and 85 Hit, and is nice for avoiding counterattacks from any non-Longbow enemy.

If you're going for Sol, then why use Longbow forges? It's a pretty bad combo because the amount you can heal is limited and the main reason Sol is so good in the first place is because of enemy phases. It's also extremely risky to rely on Sol to heal you during the player phase, and even then it's not enough because you'll die if you get ganged up on.

You want Sol to combo with Nosferatu in Lunatic+. And if that's your goal, then it's quite unnecessary to have Armsthrift since you don't need forges.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Chiki

[Mighty Kamina]

I like Armsthrift, mainly for the novelty of equipped Regalia and having them never run out. (Owain with Mysteltain, Avatar with Tyrfing, Helswath, and Forseti, etc.)

Oh right and I like saving preserving uses on my weapons otherwise.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Kamina

[Redwall]

I wasn't advocating a Sol + Longbow combo; I only brought up Longbow since it is among the weapons that benefits the most from forging, and since player-phase bow-spamming is among the more reliable long-term strategies for Lunatic+.

Sol + Nosferatu looks like another reliable long-term strategy, and it's certainly not necessary to have Armsthrift for that, but I can only see it helping. You can still get Armsthrift without any hassle by reclassing from Tactician to Mercenary, then promoting to Hero, and finally reclassing to Sorceror; once you're in the Sorceror class, a +5 Mt, +15 Hit Nosferatu gives you extra healing against anything that doesn't have Counter, which can help against the Luna+/Hawkeye combo. When faced with a lot of Counter enemies, you can simply kite and switch to an unforged Nosferatu if need be. I'm certainly not claiming Armsthrift to be on the level of Veteran or Galeforce, but it is rather easy to get and gives the team some benefit, which is more than you can say for many abilities.

[Chiki]

Nosferatu only has 65 hit, so it'd be smarter for the Avatar's asset to be +Def -Luk rather than +Def -Skl. And an Avatar who has a 2 luk base and 50% luk growth.. that's not so good. I don't see Armsthrift saving much money at all other than the occasional activation.

[The Fush]

Your argument is clearly not well-thought out. I suggest thinking more deeply before posting next time.

1. Only Gregor has Armsthrift naturally. Why class change your units into Mercenaries? Solely for Armsthrift? It's a waste. By the time 16 comes up, depromoting to Mercenary would be quite stupid as it's a bad class--5 move and swords? No thanks.

2. Your luck will never be high enough to make Armsthrift useful, especially in no grind runs.

3. If you want Sol, you can instead class change at level 10 promoted to a level 1 Hero instead.

4. Not everyone can become a Mercenary. In fact, only Donnel and Cordelia can, not counting Basilio. Who cares about a piece of shit like Donnel? And Cordelia already has two 8 move classes, so why bother with Hero?

5. Gregor isn't even a good unit.

6. Gregor has 8 luck base and a 45% growth. No promotion bonuses.

7. Cordelia only has one luck above Gregor and the same growth. No promotion bonuses.

8. It takes 30 levels or so for luck to go up by 13.5, and that's only a 45% chance or so of activating Armsthrift for both of them!

The game throws money at you and there's a large amount of bullions and etc. that you can get. I doubt many people have an issue with money.

Nobody said Armsthrift is completely omnipotent before postgame, I'd argue that it's far better within post game.

It's just that it's very nice utility during the game's story. Weapons such as Ruin and Alm's Blade can't be bought early on, or at all, without Spotpass Shops, making them stupidly powerful when tinkered with and armsthrifted.

Money isn't as plentiful here as it is in, say, Path Of Radiance. Throughout the story you'll only be receiving the occasional medium or large bullion, which will most likely go into Master/Second Seals, and buying weapons isn't all that cheaper otherwise, particularly with Silver and Iron ones when they first appear in shops. Even when you reclass to start getting armsthrift, you're not gonna be a millionaire unless you spam Golden Gaffe.

Also, movement is not everything within a class. Granted, it helps a ton, but it's not the determinator for your stats, and the classes who have such high movement usually have big drawbacks. For example: Pegasus Knights and Cavaliers in the first/mid parts of the game are great for whizzing around, but Cavaliers are impeded by the frequent sand/forests, and Pegasus Knights have a more frequent problem with the army of archers in their way. Particular repetitions of this problem are clear in Paralogues 2 and 3, and Chapter 9. Granted, it's not terribly frequent, but even then these classes have some problems regarding stats; Wyvern Riders have problems with Resistance and Speed, while Pegasus Knights aren't terribly hardy when it comes to Strength and Defense. You may argue that pair ups and tonic help solve these problems, but they can work greatly with ground units aswell. As the class in case here is Mercenary, I'll focus it to that.

If you've realized that ground units are far from useless, then you'll see that the Mercenary class has some good early skills, along with generally balanced stats that give you a break from the early units that could be slow, weak, or frail as hell. I'll say that Gregor isn't the best unit, and not even much of a great one, but he still works as one. The good thing about Mercenaries is that they can use Swords and actually deal substantial damage with them.

If we're looking at Armsthrift, it's the only reason, as I said earlier, why I bother to train Donnel; I can get him up to level 10 with just Paralogue 1, Chapter 4 and Chapter 6 (because 5 has enemies dancing everywhere), and, if I need, them, the extra paralogues, chuck a second seal at him, and suddenly he has armsthrift and can kick ass with his bronze sword, and conserve a glass sword with his stupidly high luck. By this same process, by the way, I'm just going to disregard Gregor entirely, because he and luck mix as well as skittles and gravy.

Cordelia makes a very nice Mercenary, although it's understandable why it's best for her to stay as a PG. Another good choice could be a Male Avatar (or Female), since he has generally high stats all around. There's also factors such as tonics and the two Goddess Icons you get, along with the fact that things such as Rally Luck give a high boost to Luck. You're not going to be focusing a whole set around it, but the idea is there.

Also, disregarding Gregor, even a luck stat of 10 can give you a 20% chance to conserve a weapon use. You say 45% is bad, but it's absolutely far from it; you'd be conserving uses on nearly half your hits, and generally saves a lot more than people think, especially on weapons with lower uses, or weapons that are rare; the annoyingly large amounts of Plegian Wyverns and Valmese P.Gs are going to be a lot less worrysome if you have a Celica's Gale on the MU that really doesn't give two shits about 2 or 3 losses of use.

And when children characters start popping up, Donnel's child will be as lucky as he is, and you're most likely going to get the class passed down to a lot of kids. That, and Morgan, too.

Keep in mind that this is my opinion when it comes to Lunatic and Hard; barely any people even play Lunatic+, which you seem to use as a point frequently.

Also, promoting at level 10 is a waste, since around that time your promoted unit would now be facing units that feed it little to zero experience, with little new stat boosts to actually back up the power, making it more wasteful than say, acquiring Sol when promoting at level 20, when you've kept yourself reasonably in line with the game. You'd only make a move like that if you're willing to burn an early Second Seal in order to actually train them properly again.

So, if you play the game normally and use a mercenary or two, Armsthrift's occasional activations will save you money over time, help you out over the problems in the chapters, such as the pegasus knight reinforcements in chapter 12, or the constant having to wall a line with a few units that would normally burn that pretty looking Seliph's Blade in your hands there.

My point is that while Armsthrift isn't a major lifesaver in any way, it still helps out and makes a neat little contribution if you play the game in an efficient, normal manner. Which, no offense, your points don't really tend to care about at all.

(when I look over this an hour later I'm going to see how many stupid points I've made and facepalm)

Edited June 17, 2013 by The Fush

[LunaSaint]

Forget money, I just enjoy it for the vastly reduced time spent micromanaging gold, inventories and menus.

I can easily take it off if I'm doing a chapter that requires serious preparation, but those are relatively few.

[Robinigo]

I have armsthift for the sake of having legendary weapons. Since even after maximizing the possible amount of children with armsthrift. You still have 6 without, granting Lucina, Yarne, Nah with their exclusive weapons, remaining 3 children as staves users.

Giving you the options because "you Can but choose not to" , rather than "you can't even if you want".

Nidhogg seems weak as a bow, but Noire still use it when I'm searching for Double Bow.

They should make legendary weapons STRONGER than brave weapons, not other way round.

It's just special to me because I loved sacred stones, and that's what nidhogg is from.

[Interceptor]

Your argument is clearly not well-thought out.

It's not necessary to make a fully fleshed-out argument here. Your point is invalid on its face. Armsthrift is useful in no-grind and no-DLC runs. You're not even contesting that, just doing a sleight of hand where you pretend that someone said it was amazing (when actually it was just said to be useful).

As Redwall pointed out, it's particularly useful in Lunatic+ to create strong forges that break slowly/never, but your ignorance here is excusable since it seems that you've never played that mode.

I doubt many people have an issue with money.

For someone who rides the Semantics Train™ so often, this careless mistake from you is a bit surprising. It's not "issue", it's "factor". Money is not unlimited, but more effective money gives you greater options. Forging is extremely expensive.

I suggest thinking more deeply before posting next time.

Ashera protect us all, the day that I start taking advice from someone who makes as many errors as you do. Edited June 17, 2013 by Interceptor

[lonelyVoxel]

Donnel with capped luck+Armsthrift. 'Nuf Ced.

[Chiki]

As Redwall pointed out, it's particularly useful in Lunatic+ to create strong forges that break slowly/never

Money is not unlimited, but more effective money gives you greater options. Forging is extremely expensive.

Let's start off by removing the parts which aren't rhetoric / personal insults.

A +Def -Luk Avatar has a 2 luk base and a 50% growth. On average, a level 1 Sorcerer Avatar who grew 30 levels will have 17 luk, and with a luck tonic and an S Chrom support that's a 48% activation. You're quite good at sophistry, aren't you? It won't break slowly at all; it only gives one forge 10 extra uses.

Constant use of forges is pretty useless for the Avatar. The +5 extra might isn't very useful, because the Avatar can one round every enemy on Lunatic+ anyway (assuming Lunatic stats), as an S Chrom support is assumed. It isn't very useful against Aegis+ either, because using a forge is only 2 extra damage.

How can one use forges wisely? Simply use them when you see a strong enemy to kill--for example, Generals, Dark Knights and the boss in Chapter 15. You get around 100000 coins in this game just from Bullions (assuming you visit the first 4 paralogues) and that's 10 Nosferatu forges. You need to be smart and only use forges when they're necessary, because the Avatar doesn't really need to use them constantly, and it's quite stupid to suggest otherwise.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Chiki

[HadouKirby]

It's not a must have, but it's convenient not to have to micromanage inventories as often. It also helps rare items like Celica's Gale or Leif's Blade last longer. Sure, you could buy more, but that involves summoning a team every single time you want one, and that gets irritating after a while.

[Redwall]

I think you're correct about Armsthrift being unhelpful for tome users in Lunatic+, now that I look at some numbers. Even with an unforged Nosferatu, the enemies in C23/24 are all ORKOed reliably by the Avatar+Chrom combo, with some of the beefier enemies needing a single Chrom Dual Attack at high odds. Though the accuracy problems for a -Skl Avatar are not as big as you claim: the Lv 10 Mercenary skill gives +10 Hit/Avo during the enemy phase; Chrom's Charm gives +5 Hit/Avo always; and there are also support bonuses.

With other strategies (for example, bow-spamming), Armsthrift is pretty decent, though. You get a Blessed Bow in Paralogue 3, and Anna shops can sell other Blessed weapons on occasion. When attacking with physical weapons, you don't have the luxury of hitting Res, so in these contexts, forges can become staples of an army, and not just as a means of OHKOing the limited number of enemies vulnerable to effective weaponry.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Redwall

[Nobody]

If armsthrift was a woman I'd marry it.

[Interceptor]

Let's start off by removing the parts which aren't rhetoric / personal insults.

By which you largely mean ignoring the things that are devastating to your case; but this is no surprise to anyone familiar with your posting style. And it's also not a problem, since I'm not that easily distracted.

For example:

A +Def -Luk Avatar

The +5 extra might isn't very useful, because the Avatar can one round every enemy on Lunatic+ anyway

Sorcerer

This is all evidence that you are inexperienced with Lunatic+. You have a +DEF/-LCK Armsthrift setup instead of a more sane +DEF/-SKL, you ignore the fact that OHKO > ORKO in Lunatic+ because of Counter (early forged effective weapons are absurdly useful because of this), and you suppose that your vanilla Lunatic Sorcerer crutch is a solution to the problem. I mean, FFS, if you don't mention Bows anywhere, you can't be taken seriously. Blessed and Longbow are amazing weapons in Lunatic+.

File this under "why you're not a debating partner that I have any respect for", and understand it's why you can't expect full arguments from my corner.

it's quite stupid to suggest otherwise.

I'll interpret this ad hominem to mean that you've conceded the point that Armsthrift is useful, since you never actually disputed that point. Edited June 18, 2013 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

By which you largely mean ignoring the things that are devastating to your case; but this is no surprise to anyone familiar with your posting style. And it's also not a problem, since I'm not that easily distracted.

For example:

This is all evidence that you are inexperienced with Lunatic+. You have a +DEF/-LCK Armsthrift setup instead of a more sane +DEF/-SKL, you ignore the fact that OHKO > ORKO in Lunatic+ because of Counter (early forged effective weapons are absurdly useful because of this), and you suppose that your vanilla Lunatic Sorcerer crutch is a solution to the problem. I mean, FFS, if you don't mention Bows anywhere, you can't be taken seriously. Blessed and Longbow are amazing weapons in Lunatic+.

File this under "why you're not a debating partner that I have any respect for", and understand it's why you can't expect full arguments from my corner.

And this is just bad math, since a forge can get you to +3 damage to Aegis+ because of rounding down on an odd base number. Not an important point, just another example of your haphazard posting style.

I'll interpret this ad hominem to mean that you've conceded the point that Armsthrift is useful, since you never actually disputed that point.

I think you're correct about Armsthrift being unhelpful for tome users in Lunatic+, now that I look at some numbers. Even with an unforged Nosferatu, the enemies in C23/24 are all ORKOed reliably by the Avatar+Chrom combo, with some of the beefier enemies needing a single Chrom Dual Attack at high odds.

Argument over.

[Interceptor]

Argument over.

You inflate your own worth; there was no argument to begin with. Only the naked ignorance of your position, and the subsequent dance-moves that you employed to wiggle out of being wrong.

Redwall's post doesn't even address a point that was in contention, and you even ignored the part where he gently pointed out where you were missing something important (bows). The takeaways here are that you 1) are a Lunatic+ novice, 2) make mistakes constantly, and 3) won't admit when you are in error, and 4) didn't quite read what you quoted.

[Chiki]

You inflate your own worth; there was no argument to begin with. Only the naked ignorance of your position, and the subsequent dance-moves that you employed to wiggle out of being wrong.

Redwall's post doesn't even address a point that was in contention, and you even ignored the part where he gently pointed out where you were missing something important (bows). The takeaways here are that you 1) are a Lunatic+ novice, 2) make mistakes constantly, and 3) won't admit when you are in error, and 4) didn't quite read what you quoted.

Your entire argument falls apart with this simple truth: I've already used this strategy successfully, and it allowed me to beat Lunatic+ in under 10 hours. Bows aren't really worth it in Lunatic+, thanks to my Sol + Nosferatu strategy. I was able to easily one round most enemies with merely unforged Nosferatus--no RNG abuse. This was classic mode.

It's the easiest and best way to play, because once you've prepared your Avatar, all you have to do is watch out for enemies with Counter (stay out of their range if possible, and kill them on the player phase). So bows aren't even worth considering.

It's so trivially easy after Chapter 2, and it's quite ridiculous to take your time training other bow users when you can simply beat it with the Avatar.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

Your entire argument falls apart with this simple truth: I've already used this strategy successfully, and it allowed me to beat Lunatic+ in under 10 hours.

Evidence (further evidence, that is) that you never understood my argument in the first place, since the "entirety" of it contains things without anything to do with Lunatic+.

Bows aren't really worth it in Lunatic+, thanks to my Sol + Nosferatu strategy. I was able to easily one round most enemies with merely unforged Nosferatus--no RNG abuse. This was classic mode.

It's the easiest and best way to play, because once you've prepared your Avatar, all you have to do is watch out for enemies with Counter (stay out of their range if possible, and kill them on the player phase). So bows aren't even worth considering.

A novice, like I said. You are a slave to a RNG, be it via Sol activations or Counter density. You give no value to avoiding resets, which alone would make your argument hilarious, but it's coupled with a seeming inability to understand what the word "useful" means, for extra flavor. Edited June 18, 2013 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

I said "no RNG abuse," didn't I? That means little to no resets.

[Interceptor]

I said "no RNG abuse," didn't I? That means little to no resets.

Leaving it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what this means in practical terms. Does he not understand the implications of skill distribution with no limiters? Is it hyperbole and empty boasting as usual? Does "little" actually mean "a whole lot more than he cares to admit"?

Smells like all of the above, to me. We'll never know, since even getting you to admit that Armsthrift is "useful" (not even good, just "useful") is like nailing Jell-O to the wall.

[Chiki]

Leaving it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what this means in practical terms. Does he not understand the implications of skill distribution with no limiters? Is it hyperbole and empty boasting as usual? Does "little" actually mean "a whole lot more than he cares to admit"?

Smells like all of the above, to me. We'll never know, since even getting you to admit that Armsthrift is "useful" (not even good, just "useful") is like nailing Jell-O to the wall.

By resets I mean strategical mistakes. I had no need to reset for enemy skills: that would be RNG abuse.

I don't really blame you for not being able to figure out the easiest strategies possible--even though you're writing a guide--because you tend not to think very deeply. If you were able to, I'm sure you wouldn't need to tediously train a bunch of bow users to deal with Lunatic+.

The best possible strategy to easily beat Lunatic+ does not require Armsthrift at all. Simply put, Armsthrift isn't really useful at all--it can be useful in some contexts, such as using a bunch of bow users, but a strategy like that is inferior to mine.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

By resets I mean strategical mistakes. I had no need to reset for enemy skills: that would be RNG abuse.

Instead, it's PEMN. Counter-spam coupled with unlucky failed activations tends to overwhelm the solo artist.

I don't really blame you for not being able to figure out the easiest strategies possible--even though you're writing a guide--because you tend not to think very deeply. If you were able to, I'm sure you wouldn't need to tediously train a bunch of bow users to deal with Lunatic+.

Likewise, I wouldn't expect you to know the difference between a high-reliability guide for dummies and my personal inclinations.

best possible strategy [...] require Armsthrift [...] useful

Did you ever watch Sesame Street as a kid? Edited June 18, 2013 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

Instead, it's PEMN.

Why should I care about how you cleared Lunatic+ with bow users?

[Interceptor]

Why should I care about [...]

Sorry, I can't give meaning to your life; that's a job for your local preacher.

All that this soldier can do, is say things like "Armsthrift is useful any time that money is a factor" in response to "it's only good for grinding". And point out that the Emperor has no clothes, that clowns will be clowns, etc. It's a thankless job.

[Redwall]

I don't think the implication was that your playthrough wasn't worth caring about, but rather that Counter et al. would potentially pose problems if, for example, the entire map spawned with Counter. I wouldn't know anything about this, since I've never tried using Nosferatu on Lunatic+.