Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Cú Chulainn]

Oh, and right now, I don't have a scum read on Mint Slice per say. The reasons I was worrying about him and ChanServ being buddies was they were arguing a lot but it felt kinda forced to me and then ChanServ kept saying things like "You're wrong, but you're still probably town" and that was pinging my radar. So. Yeah.

[Kamina]

Looking back, Fluttershy's Javert vote is actually kind of prod-vaguey even though I think Javert is scum. Would like her to make a more clear post detailing who she thinks is scummy and why.

I agree that Jugger being stubborn and refusing to give requested reads is scummy as hell. ChanServ, what has you thinking that Jugger couldn't falsify his tone as scum? This is a really weird conclusion for you to jump to and seems like you're townreading people too easily.

You're getting the short version since I gotta leave soon. I'll elaborate more when I return in a few hours.

My original vote on Javert was to generate discussion, since it was your idea to get the less-memorable people in the spotlight, and I figured two people to talk about was better than one. Javert's content since then was mostly defense, and his reads are basically nonexistent.

My read on Jugger is that he's under emotional stress, which is making his content really hard to read. I think the weirdest thing from him is his ignorance of both me and Chanserv pointing out that phase end isn't until tomorrow. Source:

So you changed deadline? No wonder I'm confused. Why couldn't you just have postponed deadline in an hour instead of making us suffer through another day of aggravation?

This strikes me as sloppy, which is null. I can't tell whether or not Jugger is being stubborn because he's scum or because he's irritated about something else. It's why I asked him to calm down and come back a little bit later.

. . .and I am out of time. I'll finish this when I come back.

[Refakitty³]

I didn't insist that Bob was scum from Fluttershy's report. In fact, I thought he was probably Vig- go reread my posts at the time. But then he claimed Neighbourizer, so I started pushing him for non-role reasons. I didn't drop Flutter because she's the Tracker either. I dropped it because the way in which she claimed doesn't seem like it had scum intent. Claiming because the person you tracked visited one of the kills is hardly something that's going to result in that person's lynch, when there are so many outs to that. And even if it did result in a mislynch, there's no reason to tie yourself that closely to Bob, who could have gotten lynched easily even without it. Doesn't seem like a scum move.

My style, especially in smaller games, is to try and PoE from townreads as the game progresses. I don't automatically label people not my townreads as scum, but those are the people I tend to look more at.

@Javert- If being wrong made you scum, everyone in the thread would be scum, as everyone alive attacked Darth, Orion, and/or Kumaneko yesterday, all of whom flipped town. Townies can be wrong and often are.

[Cú Chulainn]

That's not quite what I meant? It was something about the way you two were arguing but how you kept saying "Oh, you're still probably town." Like I said. It was largely gut based.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Sorry browskis, I'm late to the party.

First off, ##Vote: Javert

The last time I spoke about him I left my read as unsure on him; I don't think he changed my view on him. Ftr, his first D2 post he voted Bob and said he'd wait and see what Bob posts, but then he spent a post dedicated to defending his inactivity over posting more about what he thinks of Bob. And if you want reasons for why i think you're scummy, its because you over-react to any case made against you. That and you really only spoke about Orion last phase when you could've said so much more. Instead of defending your 'inactivity' why don't you actually post reads instead of one read?

tl;dr f5 has a good case on Javert.

I don't find jugger to be outright scum; though its annoying to see him handwave Javert and England as "They have less interactions." less interactions doesn't mean they're not scum. Don't really understand the case on f5 ; I don't get your logic behind leaving Bob alive; yes he can prove he's a neighbourizer, so? The role doesn't tell alignment.

EDIT: Actually I think Jugger's on MS and f5 are more scummy after a re-read. There's not much elaboration on it; one post says Mint Slice is spammy and isn't scumhunting; the former is true but doesn't mean they're scum; Case on f5 is basically "I don't agree with your scumreads and think you're scum"

Bob isn't really cleared but he looks better than England, who's LD1 play(esp after I saw kumo's flip) looked bad to me. His arguments against MintSlice though, while not convincing, don't sound as scum to me, so I think his D1 play is scummier than his D2 play.

I feel like Mint Slice

[Shiki Ryougi]

meh I got cut by many posts. Oh well

[Shiki Ryougi]

oh yeah and the last part wasnt finished.

Its really hard to read MS's posts cuz too many walls and they're so spammy. W/e, because I edited that in in the post.

[Shiki Ryougi]

and I'm off now, brb later

[Cú Chulainn]

Meh. I can claim if people want to try and prevent rushing around closer to deadline, but I really feel like most of the cases on me aren't that strong and are largely based on "He's inactive and doesn't have a lot of scum reads, lynch now please."

[Sham]

If your claim is something obvtown then I'd get it out now rather than later.

[Cú Chulainn]

I'd prefer to get some opinions from other people before claiming. So. Expect me to check back in about 30 minutes, maybe a bit sooner.

[Estelle]

But then, Mintslice just drops both his suspicions of Chanserv and f5 after some arguing with f5. Like... completely. That doesn't fit. Ugh.

not necessarily. i've already stated this in thread somewhere, but i haven't dropped suspicions entirely. heck, recently i did push against chanserv again because of a post, and i'm still getting a gutread on them.

in other news, i just reread javert, and i'm not particularly on board with it. sure, inactive, but looking past the inactiveness there's actually decent content, imo

[Sham]

What decent content is there?

For all the people saying that Javert's content is acceptable, nobody has bothered to explain how he's been contributing significantly to the game.

[Estelle]

let me try and explain. when i read javert's iso, i saw that javert actually had decent opinions on players, when they have come out.

He doesn't talk about the actual content of my posts ever. He is literally attacking the fact that I haven't had a lot of reads in this game.

i agree with this criticism. unless you've made a post that i've forgot about, you haven't been actually looking at the content itself when it is present, rather than the lack thereof.

so what i'd like from you f5 is an actual analysis of javert's content if not already done, thanks

[Estelle]

and if you handwave it with "oh javert doesn't have much content and must lynch" i will :/

[Estelle]

or in simpler terms

For all the people saying that Javert's content is acceptable, nobody has bothered to explain how he's been contributing significantly to the game.

burden of proof is also on you; prove the opposite is true. show his "lack of contributions".

[Sham]

holy fucking shit I swear you people literally can not read

[Estelle]

unless you've made a post that i've forgot about

sorry.

[Cú Chulainn]

[spoiler=Les Mis parody that's mostly for Snike anyways]

Who am I?

Can I condemn this man to getting lynched

Pretend I do not feel his agony

This anony one who hides his face

Who goes to judgement in my place

Who am I?

Can I conceal myself for evermore?

Pretend I'm not the man I was before?

And must my name until I die

Be no more than an alibi?

Must I lie?

How can I ever face my fellow men?

How can I ever face myself again?

My account belongs to Prims, I know

I made that bargain long ago

He gave me hope when hope was gone

He gave me strength to journey on

Who am I? Who am I?

I am Jean Valjean!

Alright, well, not enough support for me to claim, so I'm not going to yet.

In response to f5's linked post above:

There is no reason to bring up a thoughts quicktopic here. None. It's a defensive mechanism that implies Javert is a townie but has no real game relevance; essentially something scum would do to fake seeming like town with a thought process. What's worse is that Javert never expanded on the two bad jumps he pointed out. If you're writing notes, shouldn't you be referring to them? The post is literally just a passive-aggressive threat, and if people are blaming Jugger for doing this recently then Javert is ten times as bad.

As I said earlier (and copied straight from my quicktopic, fun facts :p):

First off: My quicktopic. I mentioned it in the first place so that people know I have it so that if I end up saying something like "Oh right, like I said in my quicktopic" they don't misunderstand me and think that I was scum slipping up. As for the two bad jumps I mentioned, I ended up not doing anything about those jumps on me because one of them flipped town and the other shot them. So... yeah. What's likely town vig and proven town. They were bad hops, but there was nothing else supporting a scum read on them so I dropped it. I also don't really get how mentioning it is passive aggressive? So... yeah. Moving on.

I really would appreciate if you explained how me mentioning my quicktopic was a passive agressive threat. Just saying so doesn't make it true.

It's the middle of the day and DV, Orion and Bob are all viable wagons. This post addresses none of that and gives town nothing to work with aside from a huge defense of Javert's ED1 actions, which have barely been updated for the current situation. I find it impossible to believe that Javert had no opinion on the wagons whatsoever, and if Javert was townreading any of them, then somebody being wagoned is really the most important time to talk about a townread. The result is that Javert appears to care about his own standing more than the day's progression and is totally unaware of anything unrelated to his ED1 Orion vote. This is not a town effort at all.

Yeah, I'm behind the times, I get it. I was voting Orion though, which if nothing else, should explain that I still find him scummy. Weren't you the one getting mad about people not understanding that not stating the fact that you still find someone scummy doesn't mean you don't find them scummy anymore? At that point in time, I didn't have any significant views on Bob one way or the other and was more concerned with explaining why my previous posts weren't as bad as people were trying to make it out to be.

Javert has claimed that he has mostly town reads, but ChanServ / MintSlice evidently wouldn't fall into this if he thinks they are scumbuddies on gut. Why would he not bother to look into his gut read on them beyond this? It's essentially another non-effort The Muscle suspicion could have been elaborated on since Scum Dayvig isn't unheard of - at the very least, it'd give the player something to react to and elaborate on even if he was town.

I hadn't fully reread at that point. Still haven't tbh, but I've been distracted so... I was stating what I had then. Since then, I've had this:

Oh, and right now, I don't have a scum read on Mint Slice per say. The reasons I was worrying about him and ChanServ being buddies was they were arguing a lot but it felt kinda forced to me and then ChanServ kept saying things like "You're wrong, but you're still probably town" and that was pinging my radar. So. Yeah.

As for my Muscle thing, if you recall, the reason I was suspecting Muscle was only due to his misrep of me. However, the dayvig made me think that he was probably just a townie who made a bad post. My original suspicions weren't very strong, so I dropped them after I was presented with things that made me feel better about him. Gee, I updated my scum reads. Imagine that. Here I was thinking that I wasn't doing anything except having one read a day.

"Wow this whole claim situation sure is weird and controversial, but I'm going to avoid giving any real opinion on it for now and disappear. Bye!" England is guilty of the same thing btw.

Wow gee, I wanted to see reactions before I decided one way or the other what I wanted to do. Imagine that. I might actually think that hearing from other people is a useful thing that might help prevent me from making a mistake. Gasp! Such a crazy thing! And to think, you were the one who was getting mad at Mint Slice for jumping on Fluttershy for what might have been a reaction test because it might ruin reactions. This wasn't a reaction test, but I was looking to see reactions to my case. Gosh, golly, it's like I'm not allowed to wait for a response to my post.

Oh right, since I'd forgotten to do this before since I didn't have a good target for it until now.

##Unvote

##Vote: fffff

"What? Javert, you're voting someone who's voting you? Isn't that an OMGUS?"

Why no my friends, it's not! See, I'm not voting f5 simply because he's voting me. I'm voting him for a variety of reasons. And here they are!

-This phase, after his slapfight with Mint Slice, has basically been focusing solely on inactives and refusing to admit that being inactive =/= scummy to the point of major tunnel vision on both me and England.

-Being super aggressive and saying things like "These people need to be firebombed now", "Lynch right now", etc. and using said emotions to support his case. This reads as an attempt to manipulate the emotions of the people he is trying to convince to vote as opposed to coming up with solid reasons for why England and I are scummy, that one post aside since I don't really think it shows why I'm scummy.

-Calling things "passive-aggressive" and other strong scummy words like that, but not actually explaining why those things are that.

-Also then there's this:

My top suspect at the moment. I can understand why a townie would want to make a reaction test, but when somebody makes an elaborate breadcrumb only to spend all of one paragraph evaluating the actual reaction, it screams mafia trying to look productive by faking a town tell. I'm far from impressed by him popping up afterwards to continue defending himself but ignore the influx of content after his last post, as it shows his lack of interest in anything other than the fact that he made a Reaction Test and townies make Reaction Tests and hot damn everyone look at this man right now he is a townie making a Reaction Test. For all his hot air there's no scumhunting.

...that said, Javert isn't actually good either. His absolute REACTION TESTS BAD mentality doesn't consider why a reaction test might be scummy and that reaction to Kumaneko was just horrible. But at least he's looking for scum, unlike the guy he's voting.

So lets see. You find me scummy because... I don't like reaction tests because 99% of the time they do literally nothing except waste town's time on finding the person making them scummy and causing all sorts of screwed up reads? Also, why was my reaction bad? You never explained that. You just handwaved it as "Oh this is horrible, moving on" but then you move on to say that I'm scumhunting. (see, I do do that. Even you said so)

Basically, he found Orion scummy for his reaction test, but then finds me bad because I don't like reaction tests because they almost always caused screwed up reads. Like... his read on Orion.

-

Fluttershy, what's your take on Mint Slice's interactions with ChanServ?

Asks this, but himself has said only this:

How is ChanServ flailing, at all? "He isn't but I felt like making an adhom attack on him" isn't a valid explanation.

hasn't really talked at all about MintSlice's interactions with ChanServ. He has mentioned that he finds Mint Slice scummy, but not due to the interactions with Chan Serv, but rather because of his vote on SR.

-Next post, claims that he hasn't had any issues with me since his previous post, a time line which includes my defending of my ED1 post that he now has issue with. Interesting that.

-Then this:

I was going to say that Javert might also be a good shot as I can't really remember him doing much today other than talking about his Orion vote but then the vig went off, weak. I'm not sure if they make sense as scumbuddies anyway.

So I go from being so-so in his eyes with him having no issues with me recently to being a good vig shot. Wouldn't you want to shoot scummy people, not inactive people you find ok?

-Massive slapfight with Mint Slice where he doesn't even stop to consider that maybe Bob was a non-threatening role that targeted DV. Feels forced to me. The automatic assumption that a tracker report is a 100% guilty is a bad one because tracker is not cop and it's always possible that multiple people visited DV or that DV was hit by something like an interceptor and that assumption can lead to a mislynch easily.

-Talks about how he wishes people would stop talking about meta (which I totally agree with, guys seriously it's an anon game, drop meta talk) but then goes and posts this:

Also, for what it's worth, I think England isn't actually Shin, just somebody using RP as an excuse to lurk on purpose. Shin puts his emoticons before his punctuation :P.

just over an hour later. Really dude?

-I repeat, saying things like "Guys stop arguing and vote England with me, he's mafia." is not helpful and feels like appealing to emotion to get people to do what he wants them to do.

[Cú Chulainn]

Oh wrathdammit. Spoiler below is my post as it should actually appear with quotes in the correct place.

[spoiler=fixed hopefully]

Alright, well, not enough support for me to claim, so I'm not going to yet.

In response to f5's linked post above:

There is no reason to bring up a thoughts quicktopic here. None. It's a defensive mechanism that implies Javert is a townie but has no real game relevance; essentially something scum would do to fake seeming like town with a thought process. What's worse is that Javert never expanded on the two bad jumps he pointed out. If you're writing notes, shouldn't you be referring to them? The post is literally just a passive-aggressive threat, and if people are blaming Jugger for doing this recently then Javert is ten times as bad.

As I said earlier (and copied straight from my quicktopic, fun facts :p):

First off: My quicktopic. I mentioned it in the first place so that people know I have it so that if I end up saying something like "Oh right, like I said in my quicktopic" they don't misunderstand me and think that I was scum slipping up. As for the two bad jumps I mentioned, I ended up not doing anything about those jumps on me because one of them flipped town and the other shot them. So... yeah. What's likely town vig and proven town. They were bad hops, but there was nothing else supporting a scum read on them so I dropped it. I also don't really get how mentioning it is passive aggressive? So... yeah. Moving on.

I really would appreciate if you explained how me mentioning my quicktopic was a passive agressive threat. Just saying so doesn't make it true.

It's the middle of the day and DV, Orion and Bob are all viable wagons. This post addresses none of that and gives town nothing to work with aside from a huge defense of Javert's ED1 actions, which have barely been updated for the current situation. I find it impossible to believe that Javert had no opinion on the wagons whatsoever, and if Javert was townreading any of them, then somebody being wagoned is really the most important time to talk about a townread. The result is that Javert appears to care about his own standing more than the day's progression and is totally unaware of anything unrelated to his ED1 Orion vote. This is not a town effort at all.

Yeah, I'm behind the times, I get it. I was voting Orion though, which if nothing else, should explain that I still find him scummy. Weren't you the one getting mad about people not understanding that not stating the fact that you still find someone scummy doesn't mean you don't find them scummy anymore? At that point in time, I didn't have any significant views on Bob one way or the other and was more concerned with explaining why my previous posts weren't as bad as people were trying to make it out to be.

Javert has claimed that he has mostly town reads, but ChanServ / MintSlice evidently wouldn't fall into this if he thinks they are scumbuddies on gut. Why would he not bother to look into his gut read on them beyond this? It's essentially another non-effort The Muscle suspicion could have been elaborated on since Scum Dayvig isn't unheard of - at the very least, it'd give the player something to react to and elaborate on even if he was town.

I hadn't fully reread at that point. Still haven't tbh, but I've been distracted so... I was stating what I had then. Since then, I've had this:

Oh, and right now, I don't have a scum read on Mint Slice per say. The reasons I was worrying about him and ChanServ being buddies was they were arguing a lot but it felt kinda forced to me and then ChanServ kept saying things like "You're wrong, but you're still probably town" and that was pinging my radar. So. Yeah.

As for my Muscle thing, if you recall, the reason I was suspecting Muscle was only due to his misrep of me. However, the dayvig made me think that he was probably just a townie who made a bad post. My original suspicions weren't very strong, so I dropped them after I was presented with things that made me feel better about him. Gee, I updated my scum reads. Imagine that. Here I was thinking that I wasn't doing anything except having one read a day.

"Wow this whole claim situation sure is weird and controversial, but I'm going to avoid giving any real opinion on it for now and disappear. Bye!" England is guilty of the same thing btw.

Wow gee, I wanted to see reactions before I decided one way or the other what I wanted to do. Imagine that. I might actually think that hearing from other people is a useful thing that might help prevent me from making a mistake. Gasp! Such a crazy thing! And to think, you were the one who was getting mad at Mint Slice for jumping on Fluttershy for what might have been a reaction test because it might ruin reactions. This wasn't a reaction test, but I was looking to see reactions to my case. Gosh, golly, it's like I'm not allowed to wait for a response to my post.

Oh right, since I'd forgotten to do this before since I didn't have a good target for it until now.

##Unvote

##Vote: fffff

"What? Javert, you're voting someone who's voting you? Isn't that an OMGUS?"

Why no my friends, it's not! See, I'm not voting f5 simply because he's voting me. I'm voting him for a variety of reasons. And here they are!

-This phase, after his slapfight with Mint Slice, has basically been focusing solely on inactives and refusing to admit that being inactive =/= scummy to the point of major tunnel vision on both me and England.

-Being super aggressive and saying things like "These people need to be firebombed now", "Lynch right now", etc. and using said emotions to support his case. This reads as an attempt to manipulate the emotions of the people he is trying to convince to vote as opposed to coming up with solid reasons for why England and I are scummy, that one post aside since I don't really think it shows why I'm scummy.

-Calling things "passive-aggressive" and other strong scummy words like that, but not actually explaining why those things are that.

-Also then there's this:

So lets see. You find me scummy because... I don't like reaction tests because 99% of the time they do literally nothing except waste town's time on finding the person making them scummy and causing all sorts of screwed up reads? Also, why was my reaction bad? You never explained that. You just handwaved it as "Oh this is horrible, moving on" but then you move on to say that I'm scumhunting. (see, I do do that. Even you said so)My top suspect at the moment. I can understand why a townie would want to make a reaction test, but when somebody makes an elaborate breadcrumb only to spend all of one paragraph evaluating the actual reaction, it screams mafia trying to look productive by faking a town tell. I'm far from impressed by him popping up afterwards to continue defending himself but ignore the influx of content after his last post, as it shows his lack of interest in anything other than the fact that he made a Reaction Test and townies make Reaction Tests and hot damn everyone look at this man right now he is a townie making a Reaction Test. For all his hot air there's no scumhunting.

...that said, Javert isn't actually good either. His absolute REACTION TESTS BAD mentality doesn't consider why a reaction test might be scummy and that reaction to Kumaneko was just horrible. But at least he's looking for scum, unlike the guy he's voting.

Basically, he found Orion scummy for his reaction test, but then finds me bad because I don't like reaction tests because they almost always caused screwed up reads. Like... his read on Orion.

-

Fluttershy, what's your take on Mint Slice's interactions with ChanServ?

Asks this, but himself has said only this:

How is ChanServ flailing, at all? "He isn't but I felt like making an adhom attack on him" isn't a valid explanation.

about it and hasn't really talked at all about MintSlice's interactions with ChanServ. He has mentioned that he finds Mint Slice scummy, but not due to the interactions with Chan Serv, but rather because of his vote on SR.

-Next post, claims that he hasn't had any issues with me since his previous post, a time line which includes my defending of my ED1 post that he now has issue with. Interesting that.

-Then this:

I was going to say that Javert might also be a good shot as I can't really remember him doing much today other than talking about his Orion vote but then the vig went off, weak. I'm not sure if they make sense as scumbuddies anyway.

So I go from being so-so in his eyes with him having no issues with me recently to being a good vig shot. Wouldn't you want to shoot scummy people, not inactive people you find ok even if they aren't great?

-Massive slapfight with Mint Slice where he doesn't even stop to consider that maybe Bob was a non-threatening role that targeted DV. Feels forced to me. The automatic assumption that a tracker report is a 100% guilty is a bad one because tracker is not cop and it's always possible that multiple people visited DV or that DV was hit by something like an interceptor and that assumption can lead to a mislynch easily.

-Talks about how he wishes people would stop talking about meta (which I totally agree with, guys seriously it's an anon game, drop meta talk) but then goes and posts this:

Also, for what it's worth, I think England isn't actually Shin, just somebody using RP as an excuse to lurk on purpose. Shin puts his emoticons before his punctuation :P.

just over an hour later. Really dude?

-I repeat, saying things like "Guys stop arguing and vote England with me, he's mafia." is not helpful and feels like appealing to emotion to get people to do what he wants them to do.

[Sham]

I'm too lazy to respond to that wall right now, but after mulling it over and considering the way Javert went about considering claiming in combination with a night result I'm switching back to England.

##Unvote

##Vote: England

[Sham]

Javert, do you have a night action or not? If you don't, I should be able to confirm this.

[Cú Chulainn]

Don't really see how that's your business and I'm not 100% liking how much you've been prodding at my possible claim tbh.

[Cú Chulainn]

Remember that I think you're scum. So... I don't have much of a reason to tell you.

[Sham]

Also, I did at least skim the wall and the effort is part of the reason I'd rather lynch England now. It's also what made me reconsider claim shenanigans. I know Javert is voting me but I wouldn't really be surprised if a townie did that seeing as most people in this game can't wrap their heads around why lurking is scummy (remind me to quote this postgame when I'm not speaking as a player in a game, lurking is incredibly scummy and also different from inactivity), and he shouldn't need to put that much effort into telling me off as town when scumbags like Jugger can take snipes at my posts without actually reading the game and get away with it. Main issue is where the hell has this been all game.

The actual case looks like somebody frustrated with the way I'm playing (note frustrated rather than twisting it as an excuse to mislynch me), too, so there's that.

Anybody else notice that Bob has basically dropped off the radar since the start of today, too?