Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Refakitty³]

I didn't like fffff's post saying "lynch all lurkers", but I will agree that Javert's reaction to it was scummy. Yeah, activity and effort aren't alignment tells, but that doesn't mean that inactivity is helpful to the town either. Instead of writing a paragraph on why LAL isn't a good idea, actually providing the content you say you're going to provide would be better.

Also, I dislike how Javert attacked fffff back for voting him for having only one read on both days, yet made no mention of Flutter doing more or less the exact same thing.

And England's suggestion that Mint can't call his vote easy due to the vote being on Mint is really bad. It basically says that any attempt to attack someone voting you is invalid since it's biased. England, why is it okay for you to point out that Mint is overeager to look for scum intent in your posts, but not okay for him to say your vote is easy? After all, aren't you biased too?

England, Javert, Bob/Jugger for the scum IMO.

[Olivier]

f5 and mint brings too much emotion into the game. That's probably why I'm so annoyed at them.

[Sham]

Emotion by itself isn't scummy. Being annoyed with somebody doesn't make them scum. I'm annoyed that Ultimate Muscle flaked as dayvig (who the hell does this, seriously?) but my vote's not on him.

ChanServ, would you vote Javert? England wagon is kind of dead rn and I think it'd be more useful to have one large wagon.

[Refakitty³]

I wouldn't mind voting Javert at deadline, but I don't see the need for one large wagon. Hammer isn't even necessary, and for now I'd rather vote the person I find scummiest.

[No Elimination]

And England's suggestion that Mint can't call his vote easy due to the vote being on Mint is really bad. It basically says that any attempt to attack someone voting you is invalid since it's biased. England, why is it okay for you to point out that Mint is overeager to look for scum intent in your posts, but not okay for him to say your vote is easy? After all, aren't you biased too?

England, Javert, Bob/Jugger for the scum IMO.

Don't go around throwing bold statements like this, because should you be wrong on any one of those counts you'll just make yourself look like a big fool :P.

Also, when did I say that? And when did I imply that I wasn't biased towards my own position? :P That's a big duh, of course we are. I didn't say Mint Slice's accusation of my vote was invalid. I didn't like the way he said I was "opportunistic" and my vote was "easy" like it's a given fact, to the point where he didn't feel the need to explain it enough or at all. Someone's not paying attention! :P

I think there had been too much discussion on Uncle Bob's not voting someone on the initial Orion wagon and merely stating he didn't like the speed of the wagon during D1. I can understand why people see this as scummy, but I don't feel that it's a scum action in itself. I've seen at least one townie do a similar thing before :P. However, I can't say I agreed with his vote for Jugger. and I do wish he would've made his stance more clear in D1! I probably need to reread Uncle Bob's posts in context because by ISO alone I'm not sure what's making him look so bad.

Something that seems to have caught my attention, although I believe some others may have caught on already. Mint Slice and ChanServ were at each other's throats in D1, and now nary a mention of each other in this phase. Call me crazy, but methinks that the D1 bicker-fest may be a setup! What's even weirder is that while ChanServ stated that he thought Mint Slice was town back in D1, I see no similar statement on Mint Slice's part. His suspicion on ChanServ seems to have mysteriously disappeared overnight :P. Mint Slice, what do you think about ChanServ now?

[Ochako Uraraka]

I took a nap this afternoon because I was feeling kinda crap so I haven't had a chance to reread f5 yet.

Hastily thrown together votals inbound

(2) Uncle Bob: Javert, Resolute

(2) Javert: Fluttershy, fffff

(1) Mint Slice: England

(1) England: ChanServ

(1) Jugger: Mint Slice

(1) ChanServ: Uncle Bob

(1) fffff: Jugger

(1) Voteless Scum: Ultimate Inactive

I think phase ends in... 3 hours? I'm not around then anyway. I'm gonna try and speedread f5 and possibly some others now

[Ochako Uraraka]

OH YEAH

i forgot about this thing, was meant to go in my last content post but here

also possible baseless rolespec question for people: we have a claimed miller implying a cop, and a tracker claim. do you people think we have both?

Don't like this at all. First off you start by pretty much discrediting it, then you try and line up lynches. Weren't you the one who didn't want to jump on a tracker guilty so quickly in closed setups, then how do you know town don't have both? alternatively I'm miller and there isn't even a cop (prims' games have done this plenty of time before) but basically this kind of goes against what you were saying before, and I really don't like that.

[Ochako Uraraka]

speeding through this for the sake of my body clock, i don't feel like damaging it anymore atm

reread f5 and england. will try and reread mint over the night phase

f5

jumps from mint slice scum->mint slice as bad town fairly quickly

calls dv a bad townie whereas orion apparently wasn't (explain?)

talks about england a lot but only wagons him after coming up with a really bs reason, and earlier on he said it didnt matter if the player was shin or not

doesn't really care about the lynch between lurkers

votehopping like a maniac (i counted 3 switches while doing votals since paper's last votals)

still kind of eh on him because aside from that he's had some good content. Not really comfortable wagoning him atm, especially in face of other targets

england

quick to focus on supreme ruler for something other people did too

defensive of javert, evidenced with his kumaneko point. kind of supplements it

in #128 england talks about um giving more definitive opinions, and a sentence later waffles on orion

uses his inactivity as an excuse for why a lot of his points sound rehashed. suddenly seems to scumread orion near deadline and when orion suspects him

dont like how he discredits mint slice's defence

"Who are you to say that my vote on you was easy, Mint Slice? Of course you would think that because it's on you :P."

there were some other stuff about him i'm pretty sure, but for the sake of trying to get a good night's rest this time i'm not gonna go delve deeper looking for more.

##Unvote

##Vote: England

[Ochako Uraraka]

ONE LAST THING BEFORE I SLEEP the "you'll look like a fool" statement in england's last post is pretty much horrible and a really bad defense. Anyone can use it and it doesn't really prove why you or any of the others are town

[Olivier]

Ugh, I don't like how this day is turning out. If it means putting one of f5 or Mint on the table, I'm willing to switch back.

##Unvote

##Vote: Mint

If we're going to lynch a lurker under the premise that will prevent lurkers at LYLO, you may as well say "I want to make sure tomorrow is LYLO"

[Ochako Uraraka]

LET ME SLEEP URGH

jugger are you ignoring every scummy thing that England's done in this game? my england vote has nothing to do with him being inactive.

[Olivier]

Let's lynch someone who'll flip scum. please.

[Olivier]

Are we just going to wait for deadline to make a decision? Why am I the only one here?

[Kamina]

The topic title indicates that deadline isn't for another 24 hours.

Let's lynch someone who'll flip scum. please.

This sounds like you're certain one of fffff and Mint Slice is scum.

f5 and mint brings too much emotion into the game. That's probably why I'm so annoyed at them.

This sounds like emotion, not logic talking.

From reading your posts, the sense I get is that your vote is driven more by emotion than logic. Do something else for an hour, then come back, reread, and see if you can make a logical case against them.

[Refakitty³]

Yeah, we've still got a full day.

England, he didn't just say "your vote was easy" and leave it at that. He has several posts analyzing your vote and your other content. Additionally, you brought up that he was the target of your vote as a direct counter-argument for why your vote wasn't easy. That implies you were discrediting his argument because he was the target of your vote.

Hmm, the tone in Jugger's posts reads like he's genuinely frustrated? I'd expect a mafia saying "can we lynch scum" to have some smug undertone, which I don't catch here.

[Estelle]

reading notes go

- the sentiment of this post against jugger i agree with. jugger is going "oh if these guys weren't making content" which surprise, they aren't really. also handwaving the arguments against javert/england as such

- I still have a weird gut feeling about chanserv but ehhh

-

Don't like this at all. First off you start by pretty much discrediting it, then you try and line up lynches. Weren't you the one who didn't want to jump on a tracker guilty so quickly in closed setups, then how do you know town don't have both?

uhhhhhh i don't know if we have both and it was never implied as such????????????? I asked if people thought we mighthave both, pls reread the post you quoted

- england still looks scummy for non-content ways of discrediting player's statements, which others have beaten to death by now

-

If we're going to lynch a lurker under the premise that will prevent lurkers at LYLO, you may as well say "I want to make sure tomorrow is LYLO"

flawed premise; lurkers can also be scum???? what's the problem with lynching scummy lurkers? and do you even have any opinions on javert/england, cause you've preactically said nothing, but defended them because "oh they're lurkers and f5/whoever are trying to push mislynches". i don't understand, at all

-

jugger are you ignoring every scummy thing that England's done in this game? my england vote has nothing to do with him being inactive.

Let's lynch someone who'll flip scum. please.

also this lineup of posts also looks like a pretty bad reaction from jugger, because it's still jumping toward the same conclusion; immediate refusal to even give any decent opinions on england

-

Hmm, the tone in Jugger's posts reads like he's genuinely frustrated? I'd expect a mafia saying "can we lynch scum" to have some smug undertone, which I don't catch here.

k don't like this. you're making assumptions on town/scum play and they don't always play like you think they will. have you considered the circumstances, as i outlined just above?

[Refakitty³]

I think Jugger should give opinions on England, yeah, but that doesn't automatically make him scum, especially without England's flip. I admit I make assumptions about town/scum play, and I do it to try and separate what I feel is bad play as opposed to scummy play. My assumptions aren't always right, and I'm constantly improving/changing them, but I don't think that the one I just made was a risky one. I feel that Jugger's tone sounds genuinely frustrated. Do you think that a member of the mafia would sound genuinely frustrated while saying "can we lynch scum", when all four dead people are town?

[Estelle]

I think Jugger should give opinions on England, yeah, but that doesn't automatically make him scum, especially without England's flip.

...miss the point again. jugger is being purposely stubborn about not giving opinions, even when asked.

I feel that Jugger's tone sounds genuinely frustrated. Do you think that a member of the mafia would sound genuinely frustrated while saying "can we lynch scum", when all four dead people are town?

is it not mafia's intention to look like a town? ponder that.

[Paperblade]

I'll be home in an hour or so, deadline isn't tonight

[Olivier]

So you changed deadline? No wonder I'm confused. Why couldn't you just have postponed deadline in an hour instead of making us suffer through another day of aggravation?

Mint do you have any actual townreads whatsoever or is absolutely everyone else scummy because town is incapable of town behavior?

Now I regret getting annoyed at f5's handwaving of Mint;s blatant "everything is suspicious I'm going to make 8000 posts proving this and making snappy retorts at everyone who disagrees" because I'm doing it too.

[Olivier]

but I don't think Mint is frustrated, he's just painting everything red.

[Paperblade]

It's not postponed. Phase started on the fourth and ends the seventh. 72 hours

[Estelle]

Mint do you have any actual townreads whatsoever or is absolutely everyone else scummy because town is incapable of town behavior?

pry harder. yes, i do have some townreads. who? my secret.

i don't like how you decide to attack that because it doesn't exactly bring anything new to the table.

can i request that you actually look at england/javert and give opinions on them

[Sham]

Looking back, Fluttershy's Javert vote is actually kind of prod-vaguey even though I think Javert is scum. Would like her to make a more clear post detailing who she thinks is scummy and why.

I agree that Jugger being stubborn and refusing to give requested reads is scummy as hell. ChanServ, what has you thinking that Jugger couldn't falsify his tone as scum? This is a really weird conclusion for you to jump to and seems like you're townreading people too easily.

[Cú Chulainn]

Ok, lets go.

First off: My quicktopic. I mentioned it in the first place so that people know I have it so that if I end up saying something like "Oh right, like I said in my quicktopic" they don't misunderstand me and think that I was scum slipping up. As for the two bad jumps I mentioned, I ended up not doing anything about those jumps on me because one of them flipped town and the other shot them. So... yeah. What's likely town vig and proven town. They were bad hops, but there was nothing else supporting a scum read on them so I dropped it. I also don't really get how mentioning it is passive aggressive? So... yeah. Moving on.

Working through the last day, posting on people that stick out to me.

Chanserv's sudden drop of Fluttershy was odd. Even if Fluttershy is tracker, role=/=alignment. Even if Bob did end up flipping something other than a killing role, Fluttershy could probably still get away with having claimed that.

Really, both f5's and Chanserv's insistence that Bob must be scum was odd. They both were refusing to consider other possibilities and assuming that a tracker report was the same as a guilty report from a cop.

But then, Mintslice just drops both his suspicions of Chanserv and f5 after some arguing with f5. Like... completely. That doesn't fit. Ugh.

England jumps on MintSlice because he can't understand his logic? He then continues to cast doubt on Mint but for some reason I'm getting odd feelings from it. Ugh, will hopefully get clearer things later.

For the record, if I respond to one person for a thing, but don't respond to another person for a similar thing, it probably just means that I missed it or forgot about it.

Still have more reading to go, but as of right now... I'd probably be ok with lynching f5, ChanServ, or England. This is largely based on the gut feeling I'm getting reading through the thread. Once I'm done catching up, I plan to ISO those three to try and see which I would prefer most.