Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Estelle]

I am still suspicious of Mint Slice's D1 jump to ChanServ . Mint Slice seemed quick to become hostile at ChanServ questioning his wall, throwing around inflammatory language such as "try again before misrepping me", "did you miss so and so or are you just being selective", and "learn context". Then next post he votes ChanServ saying that his last posts make him look worse, but does not really explain how those posts make him worse.

...i'm pretty sure i did explain later what was tipping me off, and continual posts against him would have implied the same

Mint Slice calls fffff's defense of Fluttershy "scummy" and votes him and threatens to lynch him if he can't provide a decent answer for why Fluttershy's tracker report may have been a "reaction test". ChanServ disagreed with your assumptions on Fluttershy's report, what made fffff's defense so much scummier?

not exactly sure why, but i don't even remember if i was awake/or even paying enough attention at the time, and i can miss things.

Then drops it, says he will come back to it, and ... doesn't go back to fffff case or really say anything about him.

do i have to explain every single nuance of my thought patterns? considering i haven't attacked him in a while, it's entirely possible that thinking over it i might find him townier, perhaps? or there were better targets to pursue, like jugger?

Later votes Jugger because his vote was opportunistic, builds a case on him and says that he likes that lynch the most.

gee i wonder why.

Mint Slice, your votes are too fickle :P. Your cases may make sense in your mind, but I see you hopping from person to person, being tipped off by anything and everything, and you dropped your ChanServ and fffff suspicions with nary a word.

for the last time

i have not dropped all suspicions on chanserv, read my posts

now that you've said all that, it's basically a summary. how does all this make me scum? right now it just looks like observations and no definite conclusion has actually been reached. sure i've done all this stuff (maybe), but what does it actually mean?

tl;dr weak case, weak vote. too many observations, not enough pushing

[Estelle]

gee i wonder why.

further on this; if i make a case; and i feel it has a lot of basis, i'm going to vote and push for it. common and single game logic.

this bit is a major point in the "observing over pushing" point

can we get votals, hosts?

[Ochako Uraraka]

will look into more stuff when i'm properly awake but for now

Let's lynch someone who'll flip scum. please.

So you know who will and won't flip scum?

So you changed deadline? No wonder I'm confused. Why couldn't you just have postponed deadline in an hour instead of making us suffer through another day of aggravation?

Weren't you just yelling about how you were the only one there who cared about getting a lynch at deadline? that's a pretty quick change.

[No Elimination]

...i'm pretty sure i did explain later what was tipping me off, and continual posts against him would have implied the same

Perhaps I need to go back and look through your posts again, but whatever it was that was tipping you off I seem to not have caught it yet.

not exactly sure why, but i don't even remember if i was awake/or even paying enough attention at the time, and i can miss things.

do i have to explain every single nuance of my thought patterns? considering i haven't attacked him in a while, it's entirely possible that thinking over it i might find him townier, perhaps? or there were better targets to pursue, like jugger?

You seemed to drop your ffffff case and never mention it again, even though you said that you would give your thoughts on it later. I can't read your thoughts or understand how your thought patterns work. So I found it odd and considered it an inconsistency. How am I supposed to magically know that you thought over it and found him townier? :P

gee i wonder why.

for the last time

i have not dropped all suspicions on chanserv, read my posts

Will have to do that. Perhaps I'm just skimming or not catching too much, but if you still have suspicions on ChanServ it wasn't obvious to me.

now that you've said all that, it's basically a summary. how does all this make me scum? right now it just looks like observations and no definite conclusion has actually been reached. sure i've done all this stuff (maybe), but what does it actually mean?

As I said, you're too fickle and you jump all over the place. You jump onto anything and everything, sometimes even the littlest of things, and your cases seem to come after your initial vote jump. Which comes off to me as if you're trying to push lynches on a whim or trying to push cases that may not entirely be there or are as legitimate as you're trying to make them come off as.

tl;dr weak case, weak vote. too many observations, not enough pushing

No u :P.

[Kamina]

hey flutter

this post was the first instance of jugger being asked to provide reads on england/javert. this post was about 30 hours ago, so whatever you're saying about phase end times and irrationality isn't based in contextual fact that jugger has had ample time to answer

this is about it. it's been beaten to death as is; but the last statement is weak logic for avoiding a lynch candidate.

further posts from this one onward basically have jugger deflect questions, and not giving much of an opinion on england from there.

in addition, i iso'ed jugger and he has not given a single opinion on javert since the initial question was asked. phase end or whatever, jugger made a number of posts between then and the time they paincked over the phase end. whatever you're trying to prove, it's flawed; there's been ample time even assuming a different phase end. him being irrational sure, i might grant, but there was easily a time where jugger had the capacity to, and didn't. see what i'm getting at here?

This is my last post before getting my beauty sleep.

From Jugger's ISO, things start going to shit right about here - there's maybe two posts of analysis from then on out, if you can call it that (post about England and vote on fffff). The stuff you quoted comes after that. I don't know what the deal with Jugger is, but if he's unable to play logically, then I think it would be better for him to sub out, sooner than later. Now I'm kicking myself for not noticing the shift in post quality sooner.

This entire thing does not address the heart of the issue, which is how the emotion used in the post I quoted in my vote could be town motivated. This is why I'm voting you, and this is why my vote hasn't moved.

[Estelle]

your case against me flutter is petty: I made some (potentially) dubious statements (from what you're saying) that are actually pretty simple to ignore/derive meaning from. the fact that you mention this one over any of the other times i've probably done similar in this game is cherrypicking a defense for Jugger.

because the overall case is barely scratching any surface

this still applies. further points toward the case being weak. you have picked one thing out of my entire play, when there's definitely more to pick from.

pry harder. yes, i do have some townreads. who? my secret.

now since you're harping on about this post again, i'll address the bolded (which you yourself added before).

the first part; sure. i will cede that it's a provoking statement. i still stand by it was trying to pry unneessary information out about my reads though.

the second part; seriously? if i think someone is prying (no secret given the first statement), am i not allowed to state that I'm not outing that stuff? you know the whoel sf mantra of "don't out townreads unless they are being lynched", right? i'm just following that, and how the heck is it meant to provoke someone? if they wanted to pursue that line further, i'd keep refusing because it's not relevant to out townreads unless required, whereas that case would be optional to out.

[Estelle]

basically what i'm saying is that your case needs more evidence because right now, the vote is weak and i don't like it beacuse of that.

[All Might]

Da fuq my post didn't go through yesterday. Sorry about that, must be my internet playing up.

This is completely untrue. You make it seem as if my entire reason for finding you suspicious is based on what Javert said. Yeah, I ran with it a little bit, but I had stuff from D1 that I just set aside then because I didn't think you were as bad as Orion or Darth. Also, not pushing you and defending myself isn't the same thing as overdefensiveness. Overdefensiveness is overreacting to a relatively small argument. What Mint accused me of doing is completely different from what you're saying I'm doing. As for me not commenting on it a lot, even if I'm scumreading someone, that doesn't mean I immediately have stuff to analyze about every post of their's.

In my book over defensiveness is someone being overly defensive i.e. they abandon attack and focus on defence.

I think I jumped to the wrong conclusion on this though. Your response is good so I'll drop it.

Except in that exact same post you waffled on Darth. You were like "Darth feels like he's just lazy, as opposed to Kuma who's scummy, but if he gets lynched, that's still okay". And then you "reread" later and decided that he could be scum after all? Honestly it's too much back-and-forth.

That means "Darth is kinda scummy but he might just be a lazy townie" I was undecided so I reread and got a stronger read.

This is a complete misrep of why I thought Jugger was town. Tell me something. If there's a wagon, and people say that the wagon is fast and sheepy, and kind of suspicious, are you, as mafia, going to do every single thing that people found bad about the wagon and tie yourself to it in that way? Whereas if you're town, if you find what the wagonee did was scummy, you'd be more likely to vote for them, not caring if people thought it was weird.

Not a misrep, you said yourself that it was a towntell; it can't be more clearer than that.

As town I would at the very least address people's issues with the wagon and then decide if said scummy person is really scum based on the issues and what the person said.

So do dumb town. If you assume that players are going to be so incompetent, then you can attribute like every scummy thing to dumb town.

No because there's a difference between anti-town and pro scum. Some things can be assigned to both and some to one and not the other and the key is finding which ones are which.

Just because the mafia is given Vanilla as a fake doesn't mean that they're going to use it in a situation where they're claiming to get the lynch off. Mafias should claim vanilla at massclaim, if they want to. If you're claiming because you might get lynched, why would you claim that throwaway a role? That's not going to persuade anyone to stop voting for you. At best, they'll disregard it and treat you the same as before, and if you're unlucky, they might choose you over another potential lynch just because you have a worse role. "Claiming early" like some people were saying they'd do as Vanilla is dumb too, that doesn't make a difference to most people, as evidenced by everyone other than me not giving a shit about the Vanilla claim, and some people actually using its timing to push the lynch more.

Why can't mafia think "Oh they won't lynch me if I claim a useless roles because only townies would claim such a useless role" and hell, if I was a mafia goon/godfather I would claim vanilla because I would know how easy it is to be caught lying by a tracker/watcher report. Even though it would risk me getting lynched I would just get caught further along the line anyway but if I talk my way out of it I would live longer as a result.

This is only scummy if I'm the source of the second anti-town kill. Mafia don't mind discussing a third party because it's something they don't have to fake. And quite honestly I didn't realize after looking at Darth's role that he might have drawn the kill, until someone suggested it later.

So it's only scummy if you're scum? What? The latter part if fair enough, I don't think you're the only person to forget about Darth's role.

Town's first priority is finding scum, and THEN looking townie. Mafia's first priority is looking townie. They prioritize trying to avoid the lynch.

This is true, but many people look townie based on their scumhunting (their method of and how much they do) so to look pro-town Mafia have to hunt "scum" using the same tactics as a good townie would use. There lies the problem with what I see as your scumspec. "Traditional" scumtells are traditional for a reason because they're the result of scum slipping up when trying to imitate a good townie.

I had a small meta thing against Darth

My apologies I got confused. Still, you used meta gaming as reasoning to defend your opinion of someone which is terrible in an anon game.

WIFOM isn't "bad logic leading town astray" either. Where have I led the town astray?

I guess "attempting to lead the town astray" is a better way of putting it.

Making educated guesses on what scum would do isn't particularly scummy as long as you're coming out with other content and actual reads too. Somewhere else in the post you said this:

Hey look, it's predicting what the scum will do, and it's actionspec. Weren't you breathing down ChanServ's throat for this?

I dunno I swear every other post of his there's this scumspec/WIFOM/iunno it's been too long dunno what's it's called. In his response post again he said:

Mafia don't mind discussing a third party

Mafia don't mind, but town should want to because knowing what we're up against would make things easier for us. Admittedly he does contribute a lot more than the likes of England, Javert and I daresay myself but I can't take him seriously when it seems like half of his content is him backing up his points with cases of bad logic.

As for that, I was working under the same assumption that many people were and pointing out that assuming DV wasn't Nk'd intentionally his role would mean that he could swerve an anti-town kill. As there has been no vig claim I think this is likely so yes, I guess it's scumspec. There's a difference between the occasional scumspec and scumspec every other post.

Right, now that I've replied to CS time to catch up on teh rest of the thread; I'm just going to respond to everything in order. If I miss something, point me to it and I'll happily respond.

I'd expect a mafia saying "can we lynch scum" to have some smug undertone, which I don't catch here.

I wrote "every other post" as a slight exaggeration but I'm not entirely convinced it is one anymore.

Javert completely dropped his case on me, and by completely I mean he didn't mention me at all after my response which he seemed pretty eager for me to give after #324. I guess I should be happy that he dropped suspicion of me but it was a bit sudden.

I get the impression that people are failing to tell the difference between inactivity (which isn't a scumtell) to lurking (which is a scumtell). I say this as Javert compared himself to UM in terms of activity, saying "UM isn't active but he's supposedly not scummy" which is missing the point, which is that Javert was holding back reads. Javert made a good read post #475 but it was a long time coming. Better late than never though I suppose.

I think f5 is blowing Javert mentioning his QT out of proportion a bit. It doesn't seem that big of a deal. Javert's attack on f5 is also pretty good and I'm more and more happy with him each post he makes. f5 on the other hand seems to be role fishing for Javert's role and I don't like that at all. I can understand that he wants to clear Javert from his own perspective, but this is no way to do it.

Jugger, why are you so convinced I'm not scum? I'm certain only the mods and I know my alignment. Just a bit concerned because you did think I was scummy in #166. And, uh, most of D1 if I remember correctly :P. Why the sudden change in opinion? Why are you so sure I'm a mislynch?

This is a good catch.

I want votals because I have no idea who's voting who because of all the votehopping.

[All Might]

This update may actually be the worst thing ever.

[Refakitty³]

The spoilers are all messed up in the latter half of your post and I have no clue what you're quoting and what you're saying. Can you clear that up?

I did say that what Jugger did was a towntell. I stand by it. What I'm disputing is your account of what that towntell was. I'm not saying Jugger should have just ignored the criticisms of the wagon, but that mafia are less likely to.

Bob, answer my question. Kumaneko literally said "I am lazy and uninterested". On the other hand, Darth was talking about his research and voting people to gain a broader base of info. From what angle does Darth look more likely to be a lazy townie than Kumaneko?

England- I've never attempted to hide that I make assumptions about what mafia are likely to do. Everyone does. For example, when you push someone for sheeping, you're making the assumption that mafia like sheeping because that way they don't have to fake their own opinions. I'm just making some different assumptions than most people do, and assuming that the mafia are aware of the assumptions that most townies make.

I wouldn't claim Vanilla to get out of a lynch even as a Goon tbh (unless it was all Vanilla). Trackers sometimes test suspicious Vanilla claims, and if you're seen taking the nightkill as a Vanilla, you are screwed. People say that "oh i would claim Vanilla because town would think that mafia wouldn't claim a useless role", but nobody actually does this. It's not worth the risk. Town might take a Vanilla claim into consideration, but they're much more likely to take a PR into consideration.

[Refakitty³]

Looking at England/Jugger's Mint case, I don't really get the point that Mint was sudden to change to me on D1. He stated stuff that he thought was wrong with my posts (overdefensiveness, misrep, etc) when he changed. It was just that that stuff wasn't really correct.

I can kind of see the thing about Mint being too quick to jump on stuff, but if I take his D1 stubbornness into account, it reads more like eager townie than mafia pointing fingers at everything.

I'd also like England to state an actual opinion on me and fffff. He's got a little bit poking at us but hasn't said anything solid like "leaning scum" or even "null".

[All Might]

Yeah I was planning to do that but I had to run a few errands. Here you go:

Making educated guesses on what scum would do isn't particularly scummy as long as you're coming out with other content and actual reads too. Somewhere else in the post you said this:

Hey look, it's predicting what the scum will do, and it's actionspec. Weren't you breathing down ChanServ's throat for this?

I dunno I swear every other post of his there's this scumspec/WIFOM/iunno it's been too long dunno what's it's called. In his response post again he said:

Mafia don't mind discussing a third party

Mafia don't mind, but town should want to because knowing what we're up against would make things easier for us. Admittedly he does contribute a lot more than the likes of England, Javert and I daresay myself but I can't take him seriously when it seems like half of his content is him backing up his points with cases of bad logic.

As for that, I was working under the same assumption that many people were and pointing out that assuming DV wasn't Nk'd intentionally his role would mean that he could swerve an anti-town kill. As there has been no vig claim I think this is likely so yes, I guess it's scumspec. There's a difference between the occasional scumspec and scumspec every other post.

Right, now that I've replied to CS time to catch up on the rest of the thread; I'm just going to respond to everything in order. If I miss something, point me to it and I'll happily respond.

I'd expect a mafia saying "can we lynch scum" to have some smug undertone, which I don't catch here.

I wrote "every other post" as a slight exaggeration but I'm not entirely convinced it is one anymore.

Javert completely dropped his case on me, and by completely I mean he didn't mention me at all after my response which he seemed pretty eager for me to give after #324. I guess I should be happy that he dropped suspicion of me but it was a bit sudden.

I get the impression that people are failing to tell the difference between inactivity (which isn't a scumtell) to lurking (which is a scumtell). I say this as Javert compared himself to UM in terms of activity, saying "UM isn't active but he's supposedly not scummy" which is missing the point, which is that Javert was holding back reads. Javert made a good read post #475 but it was a long time coming. Better late than never though I suppose.

I think f5 is blowing Javert mentioning his QT out of proportion a bit. It doesn't seem that big of a deal. Javert's attack on f5 is also pretty good and I'm more and more happy with him each post he makes. f5 on the other hand seems to be role fishing for Javert's role and I don't like that at all. I can understand that he wants to clear Javert from his own perspective, but this is no way to do it.

Jugger, why are you so convinced I'm not scum? I'm certain only the mods and I know my alignment. Just a bit concerned because you did think I was scummy in #166. And, uh, most of D1 if I remember correctly :P. Why the sudden change in opinion? Why are you so sure I'm a mislynch?

This is a good catch.

I want votals because I have no idea who's voting who because of all the votehopping.

I did say that what Jugger did was a towntell. I stand by it. What I'm disputing is your account of what that towntell was. I'm not saying Juggershould have just ignored the criticisms of the wagon, but that mafia are less likely to.

Towntell in question:

Jugger "not caring as he hopped on" is a towntell, not a scumtell, because scum are more wary of that than town are.

My response:

Handwaving criticisms is bad but apparently because scum knows it's bad they wouldn't do it.

"Because Jugger handwaved the criticisms he is more likely to be town"

Still not seeing the misrep.

Kumaneko literally said "I am lazy and uninterested". On the other hand, Darth was talking about his research and voting people to gain a broader base of info. From what angle does Darth look more likely to be a lazy townie than Kumaneko?

He didn't say that before I voted him though. When he said that I unvoted him and switched to Darth.

[Kamina]

your case against me flutter is petty: I made some (potentially) dubious statements (from what you're saying) that are actually pretty simple to ignore/derive meaning from. the fact that you mention this one over any of the other times i've probably done similar in this game is cherrypicking a defense for Jugger.

this still applies. further points toward the case being weak. you have picked one thing out of my entire play, when there's definitely more to pick from.

now since you're harping on about this post again, i'll address the bolded (which you yourself added before).

the first part; sure. i will cede that it's a provoking statement. i still stand by it was trying to pry unneessary information out about my reads though.

the second part; seriously? if i think someone is prying (no secret given the first statement), am i not allowed to state that I'm not outing that stuff? you know the whoel sf mantra of "don't out townreads unless they are being lynched", right? i'm just following that, and how the heck is it meant to provoke someone? if they wanted to pursue that line further, i'd keep refusing because it's not relevant to out townreads unless required, whereas that case would be optional to out.

It seems either I have not explained myself clearly enough. I will do this ONE MORE TIME, and I'd appreciate a straight answer.

My full theory of Jugger's state of mind is here. The statement I keep bringing up was made after that weird argument about phase end times. What I want to know is the motive behind the provocation in that statement. I can't see town provoking someone who'd argue something as trivial as a phase end time.

This case is special because Jugger is the only one to display this sort of irrational behavior. Everyone else seems to be thinking straight, so they should be able to respond to whatever's thrown at them logically.

tl;dr: WHY.

[All Might]

So I'm going to preview every post now because fucking hell.

Making educated guesses on what scum would do isn't particularly scummy as long as you're coming out with other content and actual reads too. Somewhere else in the post you said this:

Hey look, it's predicting what the scum will do, and it's actionspec. Weren't you breathing down ChanServ's throat for this?

I dunno I swear every other post of his there's this scumspec/WIFOM/iunno it's been too long dunno what's it's called. In his response post again he said:

Mafia don't mind a third party

Mafia don't mind, but town should want to because knowing what we're up against would make things easier for us. Admittedly he does contribute a lot more than the likes of England, Javert and I daresay myself but I can't take him seriously when it seems like half of his content is him backing up his points with cases of bad logic.

As for that, I was working under the same assumption that many people were and pointing out that assuming DV wasn't Nk'd intentionally his role would mean that he could swerve an anti-town kill. As there has been no vig claim I think this is likely so yes, I guess it's scumspec. There's a difference between the occasional scumspec and scumspec every other post.

Right, now that I've replied to CS time to catch up on the rest of the thread; I'm just going to respond to everything in order. If I miss something, point me to it and I'll happily respond.

I'd expect a mafia saying "can we lynch scum" to have some smug undertone, which I don't catch here.

I wrote "every other post" as a slight exaggeration but I'm not entirely convinced it is one anymore.

Javert completely dropped his case on me, and by completely I mean he didn't mention me at all after my response which he seemed pretty eager for me to give after #324. I guess I should be happy that he dropped suspicion of me but it was a bit sudden.

I get the impression that people are failing to tell the difference between inactivity (which isn't a scumtell) to lurking (which is a scumtell). I say this as Javert compared himself to UM in terms of activity, saying "UM isn't active but he's supposedly not scummy" which is missing the point, which is that Javert was holding back reads. Javert made a good read post #475 but it was a long time coming. Better late than never though I suppose.

I think f5 is blowing Javert mentioning his QT out of proportion a bit. It doesn't seem that big of a deal. Javert's attack on f5 is also pretty good and I'm more and more happy with him each post he makes. f5 on the other hand seems to be role fishing for Javert's role and I don't like that at all. I can understand that he wants to clear Javert from his own perspective, but this is no way to do it.

Jugger, why are you so convinced I'm not scum? I'm certain only the mods and I know my alignment. Just a bit concerned because you did think I was scummy in #166. And, uh, most of D1 if I remember correctly :P. Why the sudden change in opinion? Why are you so sure I'm a mislynch?

This is a good catch.

I want votals because I have no idea who's voting who because of all the votehopping.

I did say that what Jugger did was a towntell. I stand by it. What I'm disputing is your account of what that towntell was. I'm not saying Juggershould have just ignored the criticisms of the wagon, but that mafia are less likely to.

Towntell in question:

Jugger "not caring as he hopped on" is a towntell, not a scumtell, because scum are more wary of that than town are.

My response:

Handwaving criticisms is bad but apparently because scum knows it's bad they wouldn't do it.

"Because Jugger handwaved the criticisms he is more likely to be town"

Still not seeing the misrep.

Kumaneko literally said "I am lazy and uninterested". On the other hand, Darth was talking about his research and voting people to gain a broader base of info. From what angle does Darth look more likely to be a lazy townie than Kumaneko?

He didn't say that before I voted him though. When he said that I unvoted him and switched to Darth.

[Paperblade]

Votals

(3) Mint Slice: England, Jugger, Fluttershy

(3) England: ChanServ, Resolute, fffff

(1) Jugger: Mint Slice

(1) ChanServ: Uncle Bob

(1) Javert: Ultimate Muscle

(1) fffff: Javert

Also, with 10 alive it's 6 to hammer, and you have a bit under 4 hours.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Paperblade

[Refakitty³]

Hmm, that's true (@Bob). But still, Kumaneko's posts, which were filled with him not reading stuff, looked more lazy than Orion/Darth, if you were going to call any of them lazy.

And England and Mint Slice should probably claim.

[All Might]

I read it differently.

Hmmm, as deadline is approaching it's clear that my vote on CS is doing nothing. Out of England and Mint I would have to say I like Mint the least for undermining our tracker and causing constant unrest. He has scumhunted more than England but England has reacted well to people's criticisms and I like his recent content so I'm willing to let his shaky D1 slide.

##Unvote

##Vote: Mint Slice

[Ochako Uraraka]

If England is Shin he just went to bed, so we're prolly not getting a claim out of him, which makes me a little more hesitant to lynch him (see Eli in 2hu) but eh. I should really speedreread Mint I guess, but from what I remember I wouldn't be opposed to lynching him.

[Sham]

Fairly confident England isn't Shin.

I don't like the Mint Slice wagon and have been townreading him for most of today. The wagon itself is really bad; the votes consist of England's badvote which other people have already dissected, Jugger who is probably scum voting him out of annoyance and refusing to consider why a townie might be emotional, Fluttershy expecting everybody to think the same way she does and Bob consolidating.

"Causing constant unrest" is a pretty buzzwordy way of attacking somebody, too, and I want Bob to elaborate.

[Sham]

Also, since England was wondering, ChanServ makes me nervous a lot but I don't have anything too solid on him. Would probably lynch him on PoE if he survives for too long.

Otherwise, I'm generally not impressed how England shows up to post a bunch of thoughts but doesn't really come to any direct conclusion or push them too strongly. In his last post he asked a lot of questions and said a lot about me, but he doesn't really mention his reads on the people he's questioning. It looks like he's posting content but it's weak overall.

[Estelle]

i have had not much sleep and i'm really irritable

It seems either I have not explained myself clearly enough. I will do this ONE MORE TIME, and I'd appreciate a straight answer.

My full theory of Jugger's state of mind is here. The statement I keep bringing up was made after that weird argument about phase end times. What I want to know is the motive behind the provocation in that statement. I can't see town provoking someone who'd argue something as trivial as a phase end time.

This case is special because Jugger is the only one to display this sort of irrational behavior. Everyone else seems to be thinking straight, so they should be able to respond to whatever's thrown at them logically.

tl;dr: WHY.

i'm not fucking arguing about this anymore; i don't give a care about the phase end time shit. i wanted a straight bloody answer about reads, and i will keep pushing this until i actually get them. just because someone is acting irrationally DOES NOT EXEMPT THEM FROM CONTRIBUTING GET OFF YOUR BLOODY HIGH HORSE

AND IT'S ONE FUCKING POINT. OF ALL THE THINGS YOU COULD ATTACK, IT'S THIS. THE VOTE IS WEAK, ALWAYS HAS BEEN, AND MY ENTIRE WAGON IS SHIT.

[Estelle]

now that i'm done capsing; town vanilla

[Estelle]

resolute: i don't care if someone isn't around to claim. if they are scummy, you LYNCH THEM

[Estelle]

He has scumhunted more than England but England has reacted well to people's criticisms and I like his recent content so I'm willing to let his shaky D1 slide.

how the fuck does that make him town? scum can do that too, you know

also ##Unvote, ##Vote: England, Not Me Over Me and I still don't like him anyway

[Estelle]

seriously; if anyone has even looked at all the votes on me, you'd probably realize my wagon is made of shitty reasons

see f5's post