Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Estelle]

This wagon on him is sheepy as fuck.

And then what about the Orion wagon? Was that also "sheepy as fuck" or is it okay becaus eyou were on it? Don't be daft.

Actually, I have a better idea again.

##Unvote

##Vote: ChanServ

His last posts have been making my opinion of him worse and worse.

[Estelle]

okay because you were

Fixed. I hate spelling errors.

[Olivier]

Actually I'm back for a minute to note that those posts from Kumaneko are pretty awful, both of those votes, especially the Javert one, both for jumping off first vote because it's gettin' too hot, and for the reasoning given for said vote:

people joining in on the wagon a bit later are more likely to be scum.

Try harder, please.

[Cú Chulainn]

Look down, look down

I care not about your vote

look down, look down,

For no reasons have you wrote.

So now I'm being voted for... ??? Voting Orion? That seems to be about it. Since apparently scum is more likely to jump later on a wagon or some such thing. Give me valid reasoning, then maybe I'll respond more than this.

That makes two bad jumps on me though. I'll make sure to make a note of that in my QT.

[Refakitty³]

Lol how am I misrepping? I gave two examples in which you talk about what people said about events without commenting on the events themselves. Nor did I ever say that you thought that Jugger's vote was scummy. That's why I asked, because you NEVER SAID. And the meaning of "interesting" isn't as clear from context as you make it out to be.

Please link me where I said that the Orion wagon wasn't sheepy. Of course it was. What I said was that Jugger's Orion vote wasn't scummy even though it was sheepy, because he sheeped on AFTER people started calling out the wagon for being fast and sheepy. The later SR votes are scummier because nobody had yet called the wagon out for being sheepy.

Both Mint's vote and arguments against me are a huge misrep, and his comment that SR's posts have been "obfuscating" is completely untrue because there's nothing hidden in his two posts.

[Kamina]

ChanServ, can you please let the next not-you person who gets a vote defend themselves?

[Refakitty³]

Out of the later SR votes, I think Kumaneko's is the worst, for unvoting SR just because the wagon was fast, without even getting anything from him first. It looks too self-aware, which IMO is a large scumtell.

@Fluttershy- I like to let people defend themselves, but when they're not there and scummy stuff is going on, I'm not going to just sit and wait in the sidelines.

[Estelle]

Lol how am I misrepping? I gave two examples in which you talk about what people said about events without commenting on the events themselves.

Two instances =/= all my post. Hence, misrep of my wall. Good job walking into that one.

Nor did I ever say that you thought that Jugger's vote was scummy. That's why I asked, because you NEVER SAID.

When I ask about both sides of an argument, what the heck does that tell you?

And the meaning of "interesting" isn't as clear from context as you make it out to be.

This I will grant.

Please link me where I said that the Orion wagon wasn't sheepy. Of course it was.

Maybe I missed it. My apologies.

What I said was that Jugger's Orion vote wasn't scummy even though it was sheepy, because he sheeped on AFTER people started calling out the wagon for being fast and sheepy.

How is this relevant? Flail harder, I'm liking your reactions immensely. Jugger's vote is irrelevant to the point that I was making here, so why choose to bring it up?

The later SR votes are scummier because nobody had yet called the wagon out for being sheepy.

So my that logic, you should find some of the later Orion votes also scummy (But not Jugger's, I understand that), but yet from memory, I'm pretty sure you don't take much issue with them? Please inform me if I'm wrong, though.

Both Mint's vote and arguments against me are a huge misrep,

Not really, I may have missed some content of yours which lends in part to that, but the vote is pushing more on your reactions to the pressure and your actual misrep of me (Which you indirectly admitted to, see above).

and his comment that SR's posts have been "obfuscating" is completely untrue because there's nothing hidden in his two posts.

Not being clear about why one is voting, and hiding intentions of the vote by not explaining does count as hiding something, so get off your high horse.

[Paperblade]

Votals

(4) Uncle Bob: Resolute, ChanServ, Jugger, Fluttershy
(3) Orion: England, SupremeRuler, Javert
(2) ChanServ: fffff, Mint Slice
(2) Jugger: Orion, Uncle Bob
(2) Javert: Ultimate Muscle, Kumaneko
(1) SupremeRuler: Darth Vader

Edited July 2, 2013 by Paperblade

[Estelle]

Thanks for the votals. More firepower.

ChanServ, would you also say the UncleBob wagon is also sheepy? Because as I recall that wagon as well was mostly based in similar reasonings for each vote. If you've mentioned this before, feel free to quote it.

[Refakitty³]

I didn't actually realize there were that many votes on Uncle Bob until those votals, possibly because they didn't come as close-packed as the Orion or SR votes. I'll look at those in a bit.

Except those two instances cover your entire wall, because all the comments that were part of your wall were comments on what people said about Orion or Jugger. Looking at them one by one, the first one says Orion's suggestion was interesting. The second/third/fourth are commenting on SR's and my votes/stances on Orion. The fifth doesn't really count, and the sixth is again me about Orion. The seventh and eighth talk about what Bob said about Orion, and the ninth and tenth are Bob and me talking about Jugger.

As for you questioning Bob about Jugger- that's just it. Bob and I had opposite stances on Jugger and you attacked what both of us said. Pray tell, how am I supposed to discern your opinion about Jugger from that? I don't understand how you asking about both sides of an argument clarifies your stance in any way. Although you still haven't actually stated it, I'm going to assume that you agree with me that it's not scummy, even if you dislike my reasons for it, since you pointed me to your questioning of Bob.

As for the Orion votes, this is how the Orion wagon went: SR and I voted at almost the same time, and then a little bit later, Javert voted. After that, Bob (and maybe, Resolute, can't remember) called out the wagon for being sheepy. After that, Jugger voted there, and IIRC that was the last vote for Orion. SR and me were the early votes and were therefore not sheeping (I also started posting before SR posted his, but I guess you'd have to take my word for that). Javert's was sort of sheepy but he still expanded on it more than either SR or I had done, so I didn't find it scummy. Jugger's vote was super sheepy, but as I said, I don't think it was scummy due to the timing of it.

[Sham]

First of all, questions!

The last sentence in this post makes me think that you're town-reading Orion. The demand in that same sentence looks really bad. Who put you in charge of what others do? This post has an amazing tone shift from the first couple of passive sentences to the rest of the post, which is aggressive.

What does any of this have to do with Uncle Bob being scum? Ftr I'm not really reading his posts as one alignment or the other.

Actually, ##Vote: Javert

I doubt scum would have tried to seriously lynch Orion for his thing but people joining in on the wagon a bit later are more likely to be scum.

Although now I need to go ISO him. SHOOT FIRST ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

This is arbitrary logic that assumes Orion is town. You didn't even read his posts before judging Javert. How is this a town effort?

That makes two bad jumps on me though. I'll make sure to make a note of that in my QT.

This is a horrible response to pressure because there is no reason to mention your thoughts quicktopic in the main thread unless you're trying to seem townier than you really are.

To anyone who supposedly keeps a thoughts quicktopic: if you're town, why do you have game content that you can't share in thread? Power roles and player guesses notwithstanding.

How is this relevant? Flail harder, I'm liking your reactions immensely.

How is ChanServ flailing, at all? "He isn't but I felt like making an adhom attack on him" isn't a valid explanation.

This recent SupremeRuler wagon is lazy and bad because it exists over, like, 2 posts made early in the day. What he actually pointed out was reasonable. I'm actually thinking he's an annoying townie who doesn't care what others think about him. Posting gimmicks and one-liners draw too much attention this early in the game. On a related note, Mint Slice's post is really scummy because there's no reason for him to be voting SupremeRuler over ChanServ whatsoever, and when he makes the switch there's no explanation. Aside from those two attacks it's all commenting like ChanServ said. I would support a Mint Slice lynch.

BUT FIRST

##Unvote

##Vote: Orion

My top suspect at the moment. I can understand why a townie would want to make a reaction test, but when somebody makes an elaborate breadcrumb only to spend all of one paragraph evaluating the actual reaction, it screams mafia trying to look productive by faking a town tell. I'm far from impressed by him popping up afterwards to continue defending himself but ignore the influx of content after his last post, as it shows his lack of interest in anything other than the fact that he made a Reaction Test and townies make Reaction Tests and hot damn everyone look at this man right now he is a townie making a Reaction Test. For all his hot air there's no scumhunting.

...that said, Javert isn't actually good either. His absolute REACTION TESTS BAD mentality doesn't consider why a reaction test might be scummy and that reaction to Kumaneko was just horrible. But at least he's looking for scum, unlike the guy he's voting.

...

Writing anonymafia posts is hard. :(

[Refakitty³]

As for me "flailing" and bringing up Jugger when it wasn't relevant, can you clarify your point then? My understanding was that you were saying it was scummy for me to defend Jugger's sheepy vote while calling out the SR votes as being scummy sheepy. I might have misinterpreted though.

I don't see what's unclear about SR's vote for Orion either or how he's hiding his intentions in any way. I'll let him explain himself, but I don't see anything scummy there.

[Kamina]

@Fluttershy- I like to let people defend themselves, but when they're not there and scummy stuff is going on, I'm not going to just sit and wait in the sidelines.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Orion

I don't normally like answering for other people, but this is a really bad suggestion.

D1 is only as random as you make it. Policy lynching a role on D1 is the same as NoLynching D1. You basically make D2 a repeat of D1, because you have no associative reads to go off. And as for lynching people for having lousy roles- lol. Do we just lynch all vanilla claims too?

Isn't that supposed to be an exception?

First of all, questions!

What does any of this have to do with Uncle Bob being scum? Ftr I'm not really reading his posts as one alignment or the other.

It's the massive shift from passive to aggressive in the same post that bothers me, along with what I see as a veiled threat. Neither of these strike me as town.

[Refakitty³]

Looking at the Bob wagon, I actually don't think it's all that sheepy. The first two votes (Resolute and me) are for his first post, where he attacks the wagon and doesn't look for scum on it. The next two votes (Jugger and Fluttershy) mention his first post, but expand on the votes that Resolute and me gave by also talking about the posts he made after. Fluttershy's vote is probably a little better than Jugger's in that regard though.

fffff brings up a good point I didn't consider about Orion's reaction test. While the effort is there, it is sort of shallow in comparison to the amount of effort he put into actually setting up the test, so hmm. I'll think about that more I guess.

Fluttershy- it's an exception that occurred twice. I suppose that the defence I gave of SR wasn't completely necessary to make my point about the wagon being sheepy, though. Might have gotten carried away there.

[Sham]

Fluttershy, what's your take on Mint Slice's interactions with ChanServ? Also, why is Bob scummier than Orion?

[Estelle]

How is ChanServ flailing, at all? "He isn't but I felt like making an adhom attack on him" isn't a valid explanation.

I'm reading his reactions as nervous scum; his overdefensiveness is what prompted that statement.

Mint Slice's post is really scummy because there's no reason for him to be voting SupremeRuler over ChanServ whatsoever, and when he makes the switch there's no explanation.

Do I have to use max-size red bolded font to explicitly say why I decided to change my vote? My SupremeRuler vote was explicitly stated to be a pressure vote, but then I decided that putting my vote in a better place for more immediate usefulness on ChanServ was better. Not hard, right?

And in relation to the initial vote choice: deal with it. ChanServ started pinging me more after I made the vote.

and bringing up Jugger when it wasn't relevant, can you clarify your point then? My understanding was that you were saying it was scummy for me to defend Jugger's sheepy vote while calling out the SR votes as being scummy sheepy. I might have misinterpreted though.

The initial premise was addressing the "Orion wagon is sheepy", where I was looking for double standards in relation to you saying the SupremeRuler wagon was sheepy. Jugger's vote in that context was irrelevant.

I followed a similar premise when I asked about the UncleBob wagon.

[spoiler=Not actually game content.]

To anyone who supposedly keeps a thoughts quicktopic: if you're town, why do you have game content that you can't share in thread? Power roles and player guesses notwithstanding.

There's only one person who ever really says they use a thoughts quicktopic in thread, and that's Manix. From what I'm aware, they are used to keep thoughts in order, and generally you don't hide stuff in there, but use it as a way to keep tabs on what was happened/what needs to be addressed in an easier form.

[No Elimination]

Yo! I return!

SupremeRuler seems a bit fishy to me! He was quick to label Orion as scum over his suggestion about lynching Resolute, and to call out ChanServ on cheerleading a Resolute vote. Methinks he's never heard of a reaction test before. :P I shall be keeping my eye on him!

Kumaneko! Most uncool! Why is Javert so much worse than the other people who were on Orion's wagon? Care to explain to me why you feel that the later people on that wagon are more likely to be scum than the earlier votes?

##Unvote

##Vote: Kumaneko

[Kamina]

Fluttershy, what's your take on Mint Slice's interactions with ChanServ? Also, why is Bob scummier than Orion?

The first relevant post is this. I feel that ChanServ's second reply to it is warranted, due to a lots of comment for very little reads. The first one contains questions in the form that Mint Slice had already said he disliked. Mint Slice's vote for ChanServ doesn't say what he dislikes about ChanServ's previous post. I don't care for the tone Mint Slice has in his vote post. The response to the vote starts with "Lol" and ends with a complaint about "misrep". Mint Slice's response to that is worse, because things like "flail harder" adds nothing of value to the interaction. I think there's too much emotion in this interaction, and both of them share part of the responsibility for this. Mint Slice looks worse at the end of the interaction, because of the amount of emotion used as well as a lack of reasoning behind his vote.

My vote is on Uncle Bob because I think the tone shift/implied threat is scummier than Orion's antics. Reads drawn off of perceived intent are stronger than reads drawn off of action, in my experience.

[Refakitty³]

If the point was that me calling out the SR wagon for being sheepy was hypocritical, it isn't really, since I never said the Orion wagon wasn't sheepy, just that it wasn't scummy. I'd argue that the Jugger point is therefore relevant, since it backs up what I was saying about the Orion wagon being sheepy but not scummy.

Mint, you said that your vote on me was due to me reacting badly under pressure and because I misrepped your wall. But I refuted your argument that I was misrepping your wall, and I don't really see what sort of reaction you're expecting from a wrongly reasoned argument.

Anyways, I'll think about which of Mint and Bob I'd rather be voting for overnight.

In the meantime, SR coming back with some stuff would be cool. I'd also like to hear more from Ultimate Muscle, since I felt his Javert vote was sort of a misrep. However, Javert's response to it was extremely detailed and thorough, and while there wasn't anything wrong in what he said, responding to UM's small attacking paragraph with a wall of defence seemed sort of over-the-top. It's possible that Javert might just be more verbose though, so I'll keep an eye out to check if he is. England should also give more opinions, I think.

[C. C.]

I'll drop RP, and as is common move from Supreme Brevity to Supreme Wordiness.

OMG! SupremeRuler is bad@poasting!

OK bro.

Presumably this isn't an RVS vote; and as such I'm not particularly happy with the lack of detail in the voting reasoning; It reads like a weak attempt to start an early wagon to possibly get a mislynch by removing credibility of the attacked by just saying "lol scum doing this thing".

You're expecting the first wagon of the day would get lynched. That's kind of naive, isn't it? "Scum setting up a mislynch" is a valid reasoning to me, and using more words than is necessary seems like mental masturbation. I thought Orion insinuating Resolute should give a reason not to get lynched was an impossible question, because either Resolute would have to make promises he can't make true, or give some sort of vague and obscure answer that is judged "good" by different standards for everyone. No good answer would come out of it that pleases everyone or that doesn't set you up to vote him later for "not doing that which he says is why we should not lynch him". Thus: It's setting up a mislynch, and only scum would ever do that.

D1 is also not as random as he claims, only the early Day 1 part is.

The content in this vote, and the next post, is staggering. </sarcasm>

Size isn't everything, despite what those bulk e-mails in your spam folder try to assure you.

Pressure vote time.

I instinctively dislike the idea of a "pressure vote"; It's blatantly showing you have no scum reads and are just parking your vote somewhere where it has the illusion of doing something, even if more content could be expected by the next time I post.

Also your posts have not been of anything except for like all joke votes and what looks like a serious vote on Orion.

I'll read page 5 in a bit.

Quality case. First post in the game and the strongest he brings to the table is "your posts are joke vote and a serious vote on Orion" and "I'll read page 5 later". I'd think town should want to be as informed as possible when making a vote; You sure you're not just jumping on something that looks easy?

Methinks he's never heard of a reaction test before.

We have a word for "reaction test" in my language. It's "cheap and easy excuse to act scummy". Well, that's more like seven words.

OK, SupremeRuler, you wonderful poaster you have convinced us all of your glory and excellence by using grammar and spelling! Surely this is the sign of effort!

Cool, so let's get this show on the road!

Orion isn't as innocent as people believe.

I didn't want him to coast on his claim.

This is a premature conclusion from Resolute's claim; "He claims miller, therefore, he might be apt to coast later!" You're taking pre-cautions against an event that might never come to pass in a way that will not at all work against it. And while this motive may have been acceptable, you also claim it's a reaction test and... For some reason was so afraid of being seen as scummy for it that you "crumbed" it. As a Supreme Ruler, I have unwavering belief in my righteousness and do not feel the need to lay my insecurities bare by worrying overly much over appearing as scummy.

I'll go so far as to say that being overly worried about it is a scummy trait.

Hold on, SupremeRuler, you doughnut of sexy. Couldn't Orion just be, y'know, insecure?

Sure he can be, but him making crumbs shows he's at least experienced enough to understand reaction tests don't immediately swing people onto your bandwagon. It's doing scummy shit that is, and here he seems to think his course of action is scummy enough to build in a failsafe to defend himself. Preparing the excuse for your actions beforehand in such an elaborate way has all the makings of a criminal covering his tracks before they are made.

But is there anything beside that?

Of course.

I don't think policy voting me because of putting them in the same category makes that much sense.

I innately dislike anyone who reduces any votes on him as "policy vote" when as far as I can tell, no one's voting him for reaction testing and reaction testing alone. Javert's vote reason is stated as "acting scummy for the sake of reaction", where I detect the problem is with the deliberately acting scummy part.

Right, but then you have opinions on others too, right?

I think the vote(s) on me are due to laziness and easy voteparks. "Hey I'm voting him for content" would be valid, except people already raised they wanted more content from me without then sitting on that and doing nothing besides. The reason I take issue with voteparks is that they're easy excuses to look active and like you're doing shit when, in fact, you're not doing anything in particular with your vote. "Lack of content" is also a cheap and lazy excuse for when you don't want/can't analyse the content that's on the table, and laziness is more beneficial to scum than Town.

Anyone who's voted me for "content pressure" has effectively made their vote useless in some vainglorious expectation that their vote is what prompts this wall. It isn't; I simply had nothing much to analyse at the time.

So what about--

Don't you think this post is long enough as is?

tl;dr

- Orion is still scum to me for reasons related to the reaction test and this trumps the deeds of others.

- Mint Slice is among the best suspecting me because he at least construes why I could be acting scummy. Blanket "lack of content" equating to scumminess doesn't take into account how it supports a scum agenda at that time or how it is reasonable to assume from two posts as the day starts in earnest is indicative of extreme lack of content.

- Pressure votes are still useless as fuck and those partaking in them exercise futility in an attempt to look active. It doesn't look genuine and does look scummy.

- Darth Vader is getting off too easy. Specify what you dislike about Uncle Bob: Saying "someone else already said it" is fine and dandy, but if you're going off of him we want a frame of reference what you disliked before. Now, you can all too easily hop off of Uncle Bob the moment pressure on him dies down.

- I'll end it here.

[C. C.]

Looks like we're finally out of RVS.

Well then, let me drop my thoughts on the current events:

- Orion's reaction test (is that you Blitzy?) and lack of vote doesn't exactly help his case, and the lack of response to the votes on him makes it worse.

- Kumaneko hasn't posted since confirmation phase, we need more posts from you.

- I'm dying from Supreme Ruler's content overload.*detect the sarcasm

- Uncle Bob's posts doesn't particularly amuse me, but I guess I don't have to write about it seeing everything I dislike about it has been posted by someone else

For now, I'm gonna go with ##Unvote ##Vote: Supreme Ruler

And Jugger, drop the RPing *breathes*

What's this now, SupremeRuler? That's just a quote.

You bet that it is, and I'm going to tell you in detail why I wish I had two votes. Darth Vader's post here is terrible.

There's no problem with coming in late, but there's exactly three opinions here:

1) Orion's reaction test and not voting are bad.

2) Orion not responding to votes on him makes him worse.

3) Uncle Bob's posts aren't amusing.

Within opinion 1) hides the fairy of inattention, claiming Orion hasn't voted. He has, and he has even provided reasons for the present location of his vote. It strikes me as quickly looking over Orion's posts for the presence of a bolded part, and not seeing that, simply recycling the opinions of those who came before him. Such inattention is inexcusable. Why would you not read Orion's posts in detail if he's the only one you outright call "bad" and imply you have a scum read on?

Opinion 3) then quantifies something as "not amusing", which says not a thing about scumminess nor makes an attempt to qualify whether he thinks worse of Bob or Orion. In fact, this matter is escaped completely because he gives preference to a useless vote pressure vote over pursuing what he thinks is scum or whether he thinks there is scum.

So basically, in layman terms?

Darth Vader is giving off opinions on recent events, but does so only as a small nod to pretend at involvement in recent events. His actual agenda is based on lazily sitting back until I've posted to start looking at actual scum, or maybe hoping I wasn't roleplaying and I'm just horribad at Mafia. Either way, his pressure vote would've been better served trying to get something out of people he finds scummy.

"Lack of content" is a blanket excuse and that's terrible.

But Orion's worse?

For now, yes. Darth has one opportunity to redeem himself and that's his next post. Orion's content has been worse on the virtue of deliberately doing something scummy and building failsafes to excuse scummy behaviour, and afterwards needlessly discrediting the votes on him as "policy votes" when there are in fact, no policy votes.

[Estelle]

fancy talk off because I don't have a lot of time right now. (This might make me superobv, but I don't careeee)

Mint, you said that your vote on me was due to me reacting badly under pressure and because I misrepped your wall. But I refuted your argument that I was misrepping your wall, and I don't really see what sort of reaction you're expecting from a wrongly reasoned argument.

just because an argument is disproven as such does not necessarily mean the reaction and the method of disproving is suddenly invalid. why exactly do you think your reaction is suddenly "oh it doesn't mater because your argument was shit"?

I don't have any particular opinion on Orion's reaction test as of right now. I can see the points against him but yet i'm not completely convinced as of right now.

You're expecting the first wagon of the day would get lynched. That's kind of naive, isn't it? "Scum setting up a mislynch" is a valid reasoning to me, and using more words than is necessary seems like mental masturbation.

yeah but let's go for a ride here; you could have had any real reason behind what you were saying and you could have tailored a later response to fit it. it's not exactly what i'd call a definite stance, imo

D1 is also not as random as he claims, only the early Day 1 part is.

yeah I don't have a problem with this, i've played long enough to know it's not as random as all that.

I instinctively dislike the idea of a "pressure vote"; It's blatantly showing you have no scum reads and are just parking your vote somewhere where it has the illusion of doing something, even if more content could be expected by the next time I post.

so aside from the fact that (while yes, under pressure) i did out scumreads on you and chanserv after i made the pressure vote? like okay.

[Estelle]

just because an argument is disproven as such does not necessarily mean the reaction and the method of disproving is suddenly invalid. why exactly did you

really, really bad sentence structure. rephrased for clarity

[Estelle]

and it cut off the rest of the quote which i fixed

just because an argument is disproven as such does not necessarily mean the reaction and the method of disproving is suddenly invalid. why exactly did your reaction is suddenly "oh it doesn't mater because your argument was shit"?

take 2