Morgan skill combination

[Yoyo1]

Hello,

I have a Morgan(F) in the sorcerer class in my game, and I have the following skills on her :

Galeforce

Vantage

Armsthrift

Vengeance

Aether

Tomebreaker

That's a total of 6 skills and I don't know which one I should not use.

Tomebreaker seems really important at least for countering opposite Tomebreaker users, while Aether and Vengeance give a nice power and survivability boost.

What should I do ?

Edited August 26, 2013 by Yoyo1

[NinjaMonkey]

What is the point in having Vantage and Vengeance, whilst at the same time having Aether (which reduces the combo's usefulness by healing Morgan)?

[Yoyo1]

I didn't plan to have Aether at first (I thought Lucina would pass down Galeforce, not Aether...).

Isn't Aether interesting when you are at high HP ? It make you deal much more damage. Even at low HP, I was thinking it is as good as Vengeance activation (but with a much lower activation rate for sure...).

[NinjaMonkey]

Aether does the same amount of damage regardless of how much HP you have.

[Yoyo1]

I do know that.

What I meant is that Vengeance is interesting when you are at low HP, but absolutely useless on user's turn at high HP.

So you may lack some power to make one KO and use Galeforce, that's the situation Aether can really be useful.

Isn't it more interesting than Tomebreaker for example ?

[BlueFire]

You should change out more than one skill. Make a set that favors high or low HP - not one for both. Luna has double the activation rate of Aether, and the Sol part of Aether makes having Vengeance and Vantage not worth it. If you want a high HP set (which is safer), then drop Vengeance and Vantage. And yes, you should drop Tomebreaker for a top tier skill like Ignis, Luna, or Limit Breaker (if you have the DLC).

What is your goal for this Morgan? To finish your playthrough, to beat Apotheosis, or to end up with a deadly StreetPass unit?

[Yoyo1]

Finish my playthrough (and on hard mode, I guess that my current skills are easily enough) and maybe have a good StreetPass unit too.

I absolutely don't want any DLC and I'm more on the low HP set (I like playing the Vantage+Vengeance combo).

I already faced the case where multiple opponents had Tomebreaker and I didn't had it on my sorcerer, and this made me think Tomebreaker is really important.

So what should I change for a low HP set ?

[Airship Canon]

Aether is a proc stack skill, so obviously you don't use it by itself, although it has slightly negative synergy with Vengeance due to the Sol component, however, if you've got it, you're going to want to use it-- it is the highest output skill besides Lethality.

(Note (Output wise (Apotheosis))): Aether > Full Power Vengeance > Astra (Most Foes) >= Luna >= Astra (Some Foes) > Ignis > Above Vantage Range Vengeance > Sol > Full HP Vengeance)

What you use it WITH though is important.

Typically it's used with Luna, in part because Aether literally contains Luna, and Luna is a very powerful activation in and of itself. So it's seen as having a second roll at SKL/2 for Luna, although if successful, Aether is preferred to Luna. This carries the effect of boosting Luna's activation rate by more than RFK's 10% from 22 to 73 SKL. (Afterwards, Aether is still better than RFK because at that point procs are so hilariously reliable it's a joke, and you're killing everything as is, so the stronger proc wins out.) Another common thing to pair Aether with is Ignis. (Using all 3 would put you at an extremely high activation rate for skills (LB/A/L/I Sorc-> 68 SKL with Rallies, Tonic and a non +SKL Pair up... 93.2416% Activation rate.)

Vengeance on the other hand is an immensely powerful skill to have a 100% activation rate, but needs to be at low or extremely low HP to truly do much outside of some select usage against Counter.

Vantage works with everything as the most powerful Defensive skill, although Vantage + Straight Sol in some scenarios (Apo...) will bite you occasionally by pushing you to "get 1-shot range", although it's not necessarily likely outside of Apo. Aether doesn't proc enough to typically do that in Apo so it's much safer than Sol and honestly works any given way by virtue of sheer output.

Tomebreaker is a great skill for Streetpass, but terrible for most applications as the most threatening things with tomes outside of the three Invincisorcs, all have Hawkeye.

Armsthrift is a touchy subject, but in all honesty it's a pretty bad skill. Sure it's fun and all to go around with unbreaking weapons, but in things like Apo it's pretty much a waste of a skill slot due to 1. Infinite Money exists. 2. You don't use too many legendaries at all. (In fact, there's only two worthwhile Legendaries at all: Double Bow and Valflame. Double Bow is a Range 2-3 weapon and is the strongest "ranged poke" you can get your hands on, and Valflame is used on staff bots to boost their range or healing output.)

[Yoyo1]

Aether is a proc stack skill, so obviously you don't use it by itself, although it has slightly negative synergy with Vengeance due to the Sol component, however, if you've got it, you're going to want to use it-- it is the highest output skill besides Lethality.

(Note (Output wise (Apotheosis))): Aether > Full Power Vengeance > Astra (Most Foes) >= Luna >= Astra (Some Foes) > Ignis > Above Vantage Range Vengeance > Sol > Full HP Vengeance)

What you use it WITH though is important.

Typically it's used with Luna, in part because Aether literally contains Luna, and Luna is a very powerful activation in and of itself. So it's seen as having a second roll at SKL/2 for Luna, although if successful, Aether is preferred to Luna. This carries the effect of boosting Luna's activation rate by more than RFK's 10% from 22 to 73 SKL. (Afterwards, Aether is still better than RFK because at that point procs are so hilariously reliable it's a joke, and you're killing everything as is, so the stronger proc wins out.) Another common thing to pair Aether with is Ignis. (Using all 3 would put you at an extremely high activation rate for skills (LB/A/L/I Sorc-> 68 SKL with Rallies, Tonic and a non +SKL Pair up... 93.2416% Activation rate.)

Vengeance on the other hand is an immensely powerful skill to have a 100% activation rate, but needs to be at low or extremely low HP to truly do much outside of some select usage against Counter.

Vantage works with everything as the most powerful Defensive skill, although Vantage + Straight Sol in some scenarios (Apo...) will bite you occasionally by pushing you to "get 1-shot range", although it's not necessarily likely outside of Apo. Aether doesn't proc enough to typically do that in Apo so it's much safer than Sol and honestly works any given way by virtue of sheer output.

Tomebreaker is a great skill for Streetpass, but terrible for most applications as the most threatening things with tomes outside of the three Invincisorcs, all have Hawkeye.

Armsthrift is a touchy subject, but in all honesty it's a pretty bad skill. Sure it's fun and all to go around with unbreaking weapons, but in things like Apo it's pretty much a waste of a skill slot due to 1. Infinite Money exists. 2. You don't use too many legendaries at all. (In fact, there's only two worthwhile Legendaries at all: Double Bow and Valflame. Double Bow is a Range 2-3 weapon and is the strongest "ranged poke" you can get your hands on, and Valflame is used on staff bots to boost their range or healing output.)

Thank you for this analysis. Note that this is not in the Apotheosis goal at all (I don't want to use any DLC).

Armsthrift allow me to use forged Aversa's Night instead of Nosferatus which I was thinking as important.

So what should I don't use and what other skill would you recommend me ?

[Airship Canon]

Doesn't really matter what you use then, you'll whomp regardless.

Outside of making a Streetpass Team, which you'll get whomped regardless.

The actual difference between AN and Nos is really quite irrelevant. Looks big on paper, really isn't in practice.

Defensive Skills don't do a whole lot in the main game either, so Vantage doesn't exactly matter. It's nice to have, but it's not that good, TBQH

I'd say a build like this if you really want to use AN.

Galeforce

Armsthrift

Aether

Ignis

Luna/Tomefaire

Seeing as how this isn't for Apo, Luna actually isn't all that great. Aether still stomps, but Luna loses a lot of value, making keeping it a questionable thing. Use it if Proc Consistency matters a whole lot for you (Unrallied, Non +SKL Pair Up +SPD/-LCK OLM Proc chance with just A/I: 58.42% (23% Aether, 35.42% Ignis, 41.58% chance of nothing), with A/L/I it's 77.5468% (22.4532% chance of nothing)), else use Tomefaire and boost damage.

If you realize how little a difference that AN is going to make:

Galeforce

Vantage

Aether

Ignis

Luna/Tomefaire.

Use Waste. The lol 45 Hit doesn't matter, via Support bonuses, you'll still hit everything.

The former is a basic Nosferproctank build. You take damage, you kill in return and vamp enough HP back to laugh at the next thing coming your way. You would be using Aversa's Night with this build, but it's not all that wonderful. You certainly won't die though.

The latter build is a Vantage/Kill tank build. With Apo not on the table that makes this even crazier-- if the enemy even hits. The idea with Vant/Kill isn't EPH, it's actually... killing. Vantage once it gets up will make your unit completely unkillable (really, what stops this is getting 1-shot, just like a Nosfertank, but outside of Apo, you're not going to get 1-shot unless your HP gets -really- low, and main game (Even Paralogue 23) enemies -will- not live thru Waste) while waste deletes enemies. (Sorcs use Waste, other casters use Celica's Gale). Make sure Morgan has an S-support with someone though, and she should be paired up with whoever that is at all times. Dual Strike is indeed that important.

[Yoyo1]

Doesn't really matter what you use then, you'll whomp regardless.

Outside of making a Streetpass Team, which you'll get whomped regardless.

The actual difference between AN and Nos is really quite irrelevant. Looks big on paper, really isn't in practice.

Defensive Skills don't do a whole lot in the main game either, so Vantage doesn't exactly matter. It's nice to have, but it's not that good, TBQH

I'd say a build like this if you really want to use AN.

Galeforce

Armsthrift

Aether

Ignis

Luna/Tomefaire

Seeing as how this isn't for Apo, Luna actually isn't all that great. Aether still stomps, but Luna loses a lot of value, making keeping it a questionable thing. Use it if Proc Consistency matters a whole lot for you (Unrallied, Non +SKL Pair Up +SPD/-LCK OLM Proc chance with just A/I: 58.42% (23% Aether, 35.42% Ignis, 41.58% chance of nothing), with A/L/I it's 77.5468% (22.4532% chance of nothing)), else use Tomefaire and boost damage.

If you realize how little a difference that AN is going to make:

Galeforce

Vantage

Aether

Ignis

Luna/Tomefaire.

Use Waste. The lol 45 Hit doesn't matter, via Support bonuses, you'll still hit everything.

The former is a basic Nosferproctank build. You take damage, you kill in return and vamp enough HP back to laugh at the next thing coming your way. You would be using Aversa's Night with this build, but it's not all that wonderful. You certainly won't die though.

The latter build is a Vantage/Kill tank build. With Apo not on the table that makes this even crazier-- if the enemy even hits. The idea with Vant/Kill isn't EPH, it's actually... killing. Vantage once it gets up will make your unit completely unkillable (really, what stops this is getting 1-shot, just like a Nosfertank, but outside of Apo, you're not going to get 1-shot unless your HP gets -really- low, and main game (Even Paralogue 23) enemies -will- not live thru Waste) while waste deletes enemies. (Sorcs use Waste, other casters use Celica's Gale). Make sure Morgan has an S-support with someone though, and she should be paired up with whoever that is at all times. Dual Strike is indeed that important.

As a second proc skill, you would use Ignis rather than Luna ?

So finally, you use sorcerers like most other classes.

Isn't a sage with Celica's Gale stronger in this case ?

[Meteor]

Sage+Celica = 50 Atk

Sorc+Waste = 54 Atk, and it's more convenient to purchase.

[Airship Canon]

As a second proc skill, you would use Ignis rather than Luna ?

So finally, you use sorcerers like most other classes.

Isn't a sage with Celica's Gale stronger in this case ?

Ignis vs Luna is an interesting case. In the main game, Ignis will likely be better almost always, especially for a caster.

Looking at Sorc +SPD/-LCK OLM who hits a STR Cap at 31 (and with a non +STR Pair up that's 34)...

The Sages of Para 23 on Hard have well... 31 RES (average, stats are slightly random, some have 32). Ignis > Luna on them (not by much though: 34/2 is 17.... 31/2 is 15 (Round down) So Add 17 Damage or the enemy blocks only 15. It's 2 points, and considering those Sages only have 64 HP... that 2 points isn't going to make or break a kill, not with the firepower you're swinging.

In upper level DLCs (RaR, FP, Challenge, and ESPECIALLY Apo) Luna will be stronger due to higher enemy RES.

Basically: Ignis is better when Secondary Offense Stat > Enemy Defensive Stat, otherwise Luna is better or Equal.

Celica's + Sage has a better Proc rate due to 5 more SKL and is a bit faster (For instance Sage!+SPD/-LCK OLM can double the Swordmasters (Note: They Cap SPD) of Para 23 via any pair up. A Sorc needs a +SPD Pair up or a Tonic to do so.) [FYI Proc rate for Sage: Aether: 26%; Ignis 38.48%; Total: 64.48% (compared to the 58.42% for Sorc) (+6%); ALI: 82.9504% (Compared to 77.5468%) (+5%)]

Sorc + Waste has better base Damage.

[BlueFire]

Finish my playthrough (and on hard mode, I guess that my current skills are easily enough) and maybe have a good StreetPass unit too.

I absolutely don't want any DLC

To finish your hard mode, you could beat it with any skills. I'd just keep good characters with their good weapons while switching between classes, which is another reason to go for ignis.

Edited August 26, 2013 by BlueFire

[Yoyo1]

Thank you everybody for your help.

Galeforce

Vantage

Aether

Ignis

Luna/Tomefaire.

Use Waste. The lol 45 Hit doesn't matter, via Support bonuses, you'll still hit everything.

The latter build is a Vantage/Kill tank build. With Apo not on the table that makes this even crazier-- if the enemy even hits. The idea with Vant/Kill isn't EPH, it's actually... killing. Vantage once it gets up will make your unit completely unkillable (really, what stops this is getting 1-shot, just like a Nosfertank, but outside of Apo, you're not going to get 1-shot unless your HP gets -really- low, and main game (Even Paralogue 23) enemies -will- not live thru Waste) while waste deletes enemies. (Sorcs use Waste, other casters use Celica's Gale). Make sure Morgan has an S-support with someone though, and she should be paired up with whoever that is at all times. Dual Strike is indeed that important.

Just wondering...

If the idea of this set is to have Vantage gets up and kill everything, isn't Vengeance enough or at least a good 2nd or 3rd proc skill ?

For example if I succed to go down to 20HP left, I'll have 100% chance to have +30 dmg on each hit, which is +60 dmg with Waste, which mean I would be almost unkillable right ?