New tier list method

[ZemZem]

But only Henry!Cynthia or Avatar!Cynthia, since obviously Nosferatu is all that matters.

I mean Gaius!Cynthia could get Sol, which is basically a poor-man's Nosferatu, but meh.

pretty much

Nah.

Nah kinda blows.

Turnless does not even require a tier list, can't we just say "people like who they like" they use them and be done with it?

Honestly I don't really see the point.

This.

[1% critted]

Nah kinda blows.

Uhhhh.... No?

You can get her 10+ levels on her starting chapter (even with an average Nah), she destroys after that. The only proof I have is my playlog, which I won't search for now.

[ZemZem]

Uhhhh.... No?

You can get her 10+ levels on her starting chapter (even with an average Nah), she destroys after that. The only proof I have is my playlog, which I won't search for now.

I was kidding. :P I don't think Nah's bad at all, since she's my favorite Manakete, and all.

[Nobody]

Uhhhh.... No?

You can get her 10+ levels on her starting chapter (even with an average Nah), she destroys after that. The only proof I have is my playlog, which I won't search for now.

I made Kjelle get 20 levels on her parologue, she promoted to GK and destroyed the rest of the game on my no-pair up run. I don't think that means she's one of the best children. You can do that with basically any of them, with the exception of inigo.

[shadowofchaos]

*Frederick Fangirling*

This is a kind of tier list that absolutely anyone can participate in. Everyone cares about which units are durable and which units can kill a lot of enemies.

While he did say this...

I humbly suggest you finish the game first before posting in a thread like this.

Frederick is very durable against just about anything, and if you give him Limit Breaker and Res +10, he can take a couple hits from magic as well.

Fredrick doesn't have crap on Nosferatankers. Your first three points are even freaking postgame based.

Frederick is strong as hell. He can OHKO a lot of shit when trained up, so his lowish speed doesn't matter much either.

The point is here is cost vs. payoff. He's GODLY with his utility in earlygame and his bases can stand up to most beating of the game... but as soon as he gets doubled by anything with a Silver Weapon or Tome by the Valm Arc, he's toast unless you've been favoring him for the EXP. Which we know, you obviously do... in Normal Mode.

Keep in mind they get FORGES past Silvers in Hard Mode. In Normal Mode, you only get that in lategame Chapter 24/25 maps. You also get AMBUSH spawns. Frederick isn't going to take nicely to effective Beast Killer/Hammer and forged hit tomes.

If his strength stat is done right, he can be the strongest unit in the army, probably. His strength cap is 50. Add Limit Breaker for 60. Add a pair up with someone that has a lot of strength, like a strength-asset Avatar. My Avatar gives him 7 strength, so that's 67. Add Defender and that boosts it to nearly 70. And I haven't even gotten to items like the Naga's Tear yet. He can basically become Steroiderick. lol

You're only thinking of postgame. That combat potential is only there because you GRINDED.

Can you please think about him as a unit with strengths AND WEAKNESSES first, and put aside your "OH MY GOSH HE'S SO GOOD."?

Frederick can use the whole weapon triangle as a Great Knight, so he can get an advantage over anyone basically.

His reclass always gives him an effective weakness. That alone is a determent which you WEIGH against his utility. Your statement has that expression of "FREDERICK IS GOD".

Frederick can get other good skills like Luna, Dual Guard+, and Defender (I'm so tempted to give him this, but I'd have to slowly level him another ten levels...)

Defender's pretty crappy. The bonus doesn't work in the back of a pairup... All Stats+2 does (since you've already mentioned Limit Breaker) and is obviously better.

Edit: Edited to be less... confrontational and offensive.

Edited September 13, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[1% critted]

I made Kjelle get 20 levels on her parologue, she promoted to GK and destroyed the rest of the game on my no-pair up run. I don't think that means she's one of the best children. You can do that with basically any of them, with the exception of inigo.

But Nah can do it on

Lunatic+™

I was kidding. :P I don't think Nah's bad at all, since she's my favorite Manakete, and all.

Whoops my bad then :/

[Chiki]

I'm honestly surprised I'm getting all this negativity just for trying to be original.

And no, I'm not trolling. I honestly think LTC tier lists were failures and I think this kind of tier list may generate more interest.

It's already succeeding.

There's a lot to be discussed. How good are Nosferatanks, how much potential do units have relative to each other, etc.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Celes

[Anacybele]

Frederick might be on the top tier for the same reason that Marcus is on FE6's or jagen is on FE11's (I'm not sure about that one), because he helps a lot in the beginning of the game. He becomes pretty bad after some time, though, and his contributions aren't even that good compared to Marcus, since awakening's hard mode isn't that hard to begin with. I think he should be on high tier, but I wouldn't be bothered if he was on the top tier either.

But the difference between Frederick and the other Jagens is that Frederick has access to infinite level ups and reclasses, enabling him to break out of the Jagen curse. This way, he can still be top notch even in endgame.

[Tables]

That's nothing compared to raising Olivia outside of dancer, considering her bases are worse and doesn't even have Donnel's stupid-high Aptitude-boosted growths to make up for said poor bases.

I honestly don't understand how this relates to my post. Why would you reclass Olivia out of Dancer? Dancer utility is the best thing she has.

Donnel top tier? Wtf

Donnel has low caps and won't kill on lunatic/LateHard

Firstly you're the only person who's mentioned Donny for being top tier. Before you people had only mentioned him neutral or negatively. Also lol at caps as an argument. You barely reach caps in the main game, and you kill just about everything at them even lategame. Especially hilarious is you saying Donny won't kill when he has a positive strength mod and enough speed to double everything as a Hero. On Lunatic, at endgame. When we're talking about hard.

This does bring up a good point at least. Donnel's lategame performance is pretty nuts. Reaching 10/20/20 or there abouts isn't asking too much of him (I'd expect on average others would get more levels, given a stronger start plus likely SSing later), and that gives him on average:

75.15 HP, [acroymn=46.15]43[/acronym] STR, 17.45 MAG, [acroymn=46.15]45[/acronym] SKL, [acroymn=44.15]41[/acronym] SPD, [acroymn=52]48[/acronym] LUK, 40.55 DEF, 21.8 RES

Green = capped and I've included the 'uncapped' number as an indicator of how long before lv. 20 he'll hit those caps. Those are some seriously nice stats. That should be sufficient to be ORKOing with even mediocre weaponry, and for survival he has Patience, Sol and Axebreaker - Patience alone plus his SPD+LUK should give him great avoid, but adding in Sol means even the damage he does take he'll be healing up pretty often. He also has Armsthrift, meaning even ignoring the above he can grab whatever expensive weaponry you happen to have and put it to use with effectively unlimited uses - and he can do that from well before capping actually.

What does this actually mean for Donnel in the context of this list? Well mostly I just checked those stats out of curiousity, but this does give an idea of his lategame strength. He's obviously powerful lategame. I'd say he'll be among your best both offensively and defensively, and has utility in that he costs almost nothing to do his thing. But really the issue is still, how long until he gets decent, and that's what's going to kill his placement.

[MRDRHAWK]

I honestly don't understand how this relates to my post. Why would you reclass Olivia out of Dancer? Dancer utility is the best thing she has.

Galeforce, Astra, Lethality & Vantage.

[Nobody]

But the difference between Frederick and the other Jagens is that Frederick has access to infinite level ups and reclasses, enabling him to break out of the Jagen curse. This way, he can still be top notch even in endgame.

following that logic everyone deserves to be in the top tier. Celes can just close this tread. lol

BTW, FE6 have infinite stat boosters... Marcus can also max all stats! And FE8 even has grinding.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Nobody

[XeKr]

how long until he gets decent, and that's what's going to kill his placement.

Wait...are you telling me that Donnel isn't top tier because he isn't....efficient? >_>

btw I'm all for godtier Donnel if we don't care about turns. He totally doubles the offense and durability of other units for like 80% of the maingame. Clearly godtier material.

I mean just compare to Panne. Donnel gets like 2 chapters of training (existing > not existing) and then the stats don't even compare very soon afterwards. Panne has silly beast, dragon and Bow weakness (plus no Sol) which means she can't steamroll chapters as easily.

EDIT: In retrospect...nvm... <_<

I'll instead say I think the old SDS Tier list and RTU topics adequately cover this sort of subject.

Edited September 13, 2013 by XeKr

[Junkhead]

I think this concept of a turnless tier list is interesting because it makes us have to think more about these things. It's also great that pretty much anyone can up and argue here, without having to monopolize tier lists with "elitism".

Also, Olwen, I think you should take bearshark's advice on this: Set up a base tier with all the characters and we'll go on fixing it through arguements.

Is this limited to grinding, though?

Edited September 13, 2013 by bearclaw95

[Nobody]

I think this concept of a turnless tier list is interesting because it makes us have to think more about these things. It's also great that pretty much anyone can up and argue here, without having to monopolize tier lists with "elitism".

Also, Olwen, I think you should take bearshark's advice on this: Set up a base tier with all the characters and we'll go on fixing it through arguements.

Pretty much.

------------------

IMO, the turnless tier list shouldn't include grinding and should be based in a simple question: "does using this unit makes the game easier, regardless of the number of turns it takes to beat it?" That's the reason nosferatank should be so high.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

Apart from the immature elitists going like "this can't be discussed" (when there's a crapload to discuss and people are already discussing a lot right now) and crossing out entire posts just because they're above discussion on turnless tiers, I'm surprised this is going so well.

I'm probably gonna put Donnel in low tier. He has some late game potential.

Virion bottom of course.

How good is Dark Mage Cordelia? Doesn't her magic bring her down?

No grinding spotpass whatever.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Celes

[Elieson]

I think this concept of a turnless tier list is interesting because it makes us have to think more about these things. It's also great that pretty much anyone can up and argue here, without having to monopolize tier lists with "elitism".

Also, Olwen, I think you should take bearshark's advice on this: Set up a base tier with all the characters and we'll go on fixing it through arguements.

Lol "Eli"tism. That's totes me.

Anyhow, in a turn less run, THE DON provides excellent yield for the effort, but isn't the best parent. HOWEVER he ramcaps like no one else, and is the best non-Avatar recipient of HELSWATH LATEGAME, as well as any forges that come his way due to Armsthrift/Sol preservation.

Donny requires like two chapters of babying to catch up, which burn down to chapter 5 and a Paralogue. Or a skirmish because let's not forget skirmishes exist because we ignored my request for clarification on Anna shops and Renown and Sparkly Square Rewards. There's a strong possibility of participating in one skirmish per chapter completed, from chapter 5-Endgame, and a second skirmish for every 4 skirmishes (rough example).

EXP is in no shortage, and Donny is not struggling for exp.

[Junkhead]

Cordelia as a Dark Mage is good all-around...except in the Mag department, yeah. May be fixable with the right pairing. I usually do Sumia x Avatar, and have he magic based even though her Mag is iffy.

[Tables]

Galeforce, Astra, Lethality & Vantage.

Not sure if serious, or just trolling... assuming you are serious, two of those skills are pretty crap, the third is bad on a character who can't kill in one hit and the fourth is not worth going for because it means not dancing until you get to level 15 promoted.

Edit:

Anyhow, in a turn less run, THE DON provides excellent yield for the effort, but isn't the best parent.

He's easily the best non-Avatar parent for most kids. In-game, the most important things are skill inheritance and base stats for kids. Growths and class sets are honestly a distant second. Donny should be providing reasonably good base stats by the time he's having a kid, with stats comfortably up to par (he might still be unpromoted, but his personal stats will likely be close to other characters), and Aptitude on a kid is really good. Like the kids are growing really quickly, they can reach level 20 in no time at which point Aptitude has already provided more to them than All Stats+2, and of course it's a gift that keeps on giving.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Tables

[Chiki]

Here's the tier list. I wasn't sure how to make this and it's probably filled with issues.

God Tier

Female Avatar
Male Avatar

Top Tier

Miriel
Tharja
Henry

High Tier

Nowi

Frederick

Sumia

Cordelia

Chrom

Sully

Stahl

Panne

Tiki

Anna

Mid Tier

Cherche

Libra

Lon'qu

Donnel

Olivia

Kellam

Gregor

Vaike

Low Tier

Say'ri

Ricken

Lissa

Maribelle

Gaius

Basilio

Flavia

Bottom Tier

Virion

[Zaprong]

Tables wrote: ''Firstly you're the only person who's mentioned Donny for being top tier.''

Another person who wrote like 2 people before me: ''Oh and Donnelol for top because turn counts dont matter and dem growths.''

Anyway Great Knight kellam is very good Since he has MOV Great STR and DEF and ok Speed (which he doesn't really need since lol luna) as well as 3 possible weapons to use, making him versatile.

[General Banzai]

Why is availability important?

If a character is valuable for the entire time they're available, even if that availability isn't as much as someone who is only somewhat valuable for the entire time they're available, then the former character is a better character who will help you complete the game better than the latter character.

For a more clear-cut example, if we were to do the same style of tier list for FE7, factoring in availability would drop Athos down to, like, below average tier along with guys like Rebecca or something. But Athos is incredibly useful for when he's available, and if you want to complete the game with as much ease as possible, it is heavily recommended to use Athos when he is available. (For a less extreme example, we can go with Harken or Pent).

Placing these less-available, yet highly valuable characters lower on the tier list simply because of their availability gives a false impression of that unit's actual worth.

[Chiki]

I mean no offense towards you when I say this, but a 5 year old could figure out why availability is important.

We decided that being able to kill a lot of stuff = good.

Being able to kill a lot of stuff in one chapter is not as good as being able to kill a lot of stuff in 20 chapters, for example.

This is just simple math. It's obvious why availability is so important.

If a character like Basilio has unique utility by being able to, for example, kill Generals with the Hammer (I know this isn't a true example but bear with me) then he gets awarded for having unique combat potential. Athos gets awarded for having unique combat potential with the Luna.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Celes

[General Banzai]

I mean no offense towards you when I say this, but a 5 year old could figure out why availability is important.

We decided that being able to kill a lot of stuff = good.

Being able to kill a lot of stuff in one chapter is not as good as being able to kill a lot of stuff in 20 chapters, for example.

This is just simple math. It's obvious why availability is so important.

If a character like Basilio has unique utility by being able to, for example, kill Generals with the Hammer (I know this isn't a true example but bear with me) then he gets awarded for having unique combat potential. Athos gets awarded for having unique combat potential with the Luna.

Yes, but being able to kill a lot of stuff in one chapter is better than being able to not kill a lot of stuff in 20 chapters.

And don't bust out shit like "unique combat potential" and apply terms and modes of thought to this supposedly kid-friendly tier list that were the reason LTC tier lists were mutating out of control in the first place

[Junkhead]

Here's the tier list. I wasn't sure how to make this and it's probably filled with issues.

God Tier

Female Avatar

Male Avatar

Top Tier

Miriel

Tharja

Henry

High Tier

Nowi

Frederick

Sumia

Cordelia

Chrom

Sully

Stahl

Panne

Tiki

Anna

Mid Tier

Cherche

Libra

Lon'qu

Donnel

Olivia

Kellam

Gregor

Vaike

Low Tier

Say'ri

Ricken

Lissa

Maribelle

Gaius

Basilio

Flavia

Bottom Tier

Virion

It's a nice start. Give me a while, and I'll start my stance on a certain character.

[Chiki]

Yes, but being able to kill a lot of stuff in one chapter is better than being able to not kill a lot of stuff in 20 chapters.

And don't bust out shit like "unique combat potential" and apply terms and modes of thought to this supposedly kid-friendly tier list that were the reason LTC tier lists were mutating out of control in the first place

Depends on how much the bolded part contributes to completion.

High availability generally makes a character better than a low availability character. It's a rule of thumb. It's not 100% accurate, but it's what is generally true.

High availability is better because meh performance over 20 chapters generally is worth more than great performance in one chapter. Since we just aim to complete chapters here, if a meh performance is killing 3 enemies per chapter and a great performance is killing 20 enemies in one chapter, then the unit with a decent performance. The meh performance unit killed 60 enemies overall. The great killed 20. You see the difference?

As you can see, you don't need to be a mathematician to understand the basic reasoning behind this. You simply need to be a human being.

You claim that unique utility isn't kid friendly. But I honestly think anyone can understand that having a unique contribution to clearing a certain chapter is a good thing. Ex: any simpleton can understand that Athos being able to use Luna when no one else can for that dragon is a really good thing.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Celes