Map?

[Brendor]

I have this map I made in Tiled. I'd appreciate some critiques from the experienced mappers to help improve the map ^_^

Before EVERYONE says it, yes I know the Mountains are shit and need to be done I'm asking about everything else.

Constructive criticism would be welcomed and appreciated :D

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

The geological formations are very uniform. Try adding some variety by changing which forest tiles you use, adding jags into the beaches.

[NICKT™]

Looks alright, just need to make the edges of the land less straight lines. At the moment it looks like you cut it with a knife.

[Brendor]

how should I add jags? the available beach tiles I see are very limited :/

you mean think adding cliffs around the shores?

[blyegg]

I forget, is it possible to go through that?

Anyways, for the beach...

Try the edge of the beach more variety, I guess. (Ignore the lack of variation in everything else, this is meant to be only for the edge.) (Yes, I know it's a different tileset.)

Also wtf use mappy

Edited October 28, 2013 by Kurix

[Brendor]

yes they can be traversed

and I planned on that actually but I don't think I have enough room with the current dimensions. Maybe I should make the map bigger?

[blyegg]

ok i was just wondering since i havent played 7 in a while

and yeah, i would

[Brendor]

better maybe?

the red tiles are reserved for a small mountain

Edited October 28, 2013 by Brendor the Brave

[Haku]

That's better, but the island on the right looks a bit empty.

[Brendor]

Therell be about 3-4 ballistae over there that's why, but I guess more forests and stuff couldn't hurt.

Anything else besides that and actually finishing the mountain? lol

[blyegg]

Maybe break up the pathes a bit, since IMO it would look more interesting.

[NICKT™]

It's not the greatest, but it's how I would have done your map, I guess.

[Brendor]

How do you mean? Like not complete lines but a bunch of disjointed line segments?

Nickt: that's a nifty map but it doesn't fit what I was trying to emulate

Edited October 28, 2013 by Brendor the Brave

[Jubby]

even if nickt's map is nothing like what you want yours to be, it's way more realistic. Use his terrain & whatnot as reference points; compare everything, mountains, beaches, paths, etc. His are much more random and natural-formation-y.

[Brendor]

Jubby! You're back! :D

Also, Nickt's a girl xD

Are there any particular areas or parts of the map that need immediate improvement or is it all the cliffs, beaches, edges, roads, whatever the hell else in general? And are there any other errors or points of improvement that stand out besides the randomness of the terrain?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Brendor the Brave

[Brendor]

better?

[Celice]

It is a little better. The problem with NICKT's map, as a referential warning, is that it has issues dealing with the perspective of height. The bottom-half of the map is seemingly at almost sea-level, as the beach/paths intersperse without any break in continuity, save the cliff in the far bottom-right, and near the middle of the map. That kind of land formation wouldn't be very smart for a village or large cabin, considering the tides would probably swallow most of the lower area.

In your revision, parts of the map are very flat, and also at times pretty "chunky". That is, you use the same tiles or designs in close succession, making the map look a little uninspired and bland. You can vary the tiles and land formations to try and break this up, but be wary of making your map overly "wooly", too. I borrow this term from some of the developers of Rare's games back on the N64: they didn't have a clear idea of when a level became wooly, but it was certainly felt when their levels and worlds became overly cluttered.

Another thing to keep in mind is whether this is merely an aesthetic map, or if you intend someone to play on this map. As it is, if the latter, then the map doesn't have a very clear level flow. Where the main characters will spawn, where enemies will be, and how the player is to proceed are kind of difficult to see with your map. The flow-itself isn't too bad in this map, as I can see the player beginning at the top and moving west around the coast, until they arrive at the cabin. However, other parts of the map are really thin, and I think not even traversable (near the beach-cliff faces). Enemies are limited in their appearance, and risk both the enemy and player units being funneled into conflict, rather than one choosing to engage the other.

It mostly depends on what you think the map ought to be. Some people think an overly-woolen map is perfect. Others think that aesthetics come before all else, excusing mediocre or bland level flow in exchange for a pleasing view. And others might accept incredibly straight-forward design if it allows for some interesting gameplay devices.

Those are my thoughts, at least. I think your current design could benefit from taking into consideration whether its land gradation is good or bad.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Celice

[Brendor]

new one. Made the north eastern island more interesting and filled the empty sea with some islands

well as far as gameplay, I planned for your characters to spawn FROM the cabin and have pirates spawn along the coast and brigands from the cave as well as soldier, cavalry whatever from the northern entrance. the enemies are all trying to destroy the various villages spread about the map and your objective is to save them all so I made some of the paths "cramped' to hinder your units to add difficulty. Personally, aesthetics aren't a big issue as far as the level and gameplay is enjoyable for the player. I'm sorry but I'm still a bit confused on what you mean by "chucky" and "wooly" you refer to as well as graduation of land. I think by graduation of the land you mean elevation correctly corresponding to the island, in which case do you suggest I add more cliffs after the beaches to compensate?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Brendor the Brave

[Celice]

Yeah, elevation and gradation. Cliffs are an easy way to clearly show when the level of the land raises or falls. It's not always needed, if you can express an increase in land with different patterns (such as a clear break between sandy beach and highlands), however in your map there are obvious issues with height.

In the blue circles I try and point out the issues. To the left of the cabin, the cliff remains the same level throughout, however you seem to actually raise the land one level above the lower beach area. However, you cliffs do not increase to compensate, making it look surreal. The smaller blue circle just shows where your beach sudden jars into both a higher height, as well as a thicket.

Wooly in the case of your map would be all the side objects that seemingly do nothing for the level. The arena, the forts seemingly placed for the sake of being there, rather than providing a gameplay device or a context for the area's backstory, and the castle and moreover that entire island in the top-right, are all sort of placed without any real importance. If you do away with them, nothing great would be lost, which reveals their lack of importance in the overall design or theme of the map. Sometimes, these kinds of things aren't appropriate--using them makes the level overly woolen.

To get a better feel for the term, there is a developer commentary going on for Conker's Bad Fur Day, and this is where several of the game's development members use and explain their term.

[Brendor]

For the smaller circle, I would imagine swapping the bottom right thicket for a cliff with sand would fix that?

The bigger circle I'd imagine the best way to fix it would be to change the cliffs around the village and that general area to beaches right?

So by wooly you mean aspects that don't add to gameplay? Well the eastern island is supposed to be another spawn point for allies, hence the snag that leads to the central island. The arena island was meant to act as a spawn point for pirates will simultaneously forcing the player to ferry characters around the water with fliers if they want to arena abuse. Subsequently, the fort is there for players to heal so you have to option of either: A) ferrying a healing unit over to the island or B) waiting in the fort for how ever many turns

The north western fort is *spoiler* used later for and area event and the forts on the big eastern island are used later to spawn cavalry.

So I do have uses for them, they're not just arbitrarily placed about but maybe you have suggestion of how they could be used more efficiently?

[Celice]

Well, level design like that--where you use specific pieces purely for their functional roles--is something some hardcore fans might appreciate, but really passes as sometimes ugly or bad level design.

Think of it like the Kaizo Mario hacks, or some of the extreme Super Metroid hacks. They assume that all players will be aware and will exploit any game mechanic available, including abstract glitches, as if they are part of every player's natural ability. Exploiting these mechanics are supposed to be both expected and gratifying.

Your map mechanics would also seem to fall under this kind of exploitation, such as your arena-ferrying and fort-blocking ideas, as well as using the castle as a planned ally spawn and the dead trees as a bridge (which, but the way, I think use river tiles once they are fallen, which could look odd with the adjacent ocean tiles).

Again it depends on what you intend your project or map to be for, but when designing a level or area, sometimes it's good to ask yourself, Would a castle really be here in the map? Would someone spend all their time and money building an arena way out there? Does it fit with the lore of the map or its world?

If it's purely fitted for their functional role, that works, but it also can make the map feel very artificial, and, in a way, amateurish, as it skips the atmosphere of the map to get straight to the practical gameplay and mechanics of the game engine.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Celice

[Brendor]

better maybe? I tried to fix the height issues and wooliness

Edited October 30, 2013 by Brendor the Brave

[Jubby]

that's looking much better, also I'm not staying back, I've got like 3 midterms this week I just popped in and Nickt is most definitely not a girl.

[Brendor]

Thanks, are there any particular things I should still be trying to fix? And it's cool Jubbs good luck.

Yes, she is. I saw her Facebook dude :/

[Matt Snow]

The only things I see that are wrong with it is:

1. http://gyazo.com/5aa0e362a6345f6af2967b999a5523ac grass suddenly meets sea

2. http://gyazo.com/3d3f14aea1fccf367f89211994330488 That looks wierd to me, though I think it might just be me.

Other than that it looks pretty cool, though the beach in the lower left corner looks kinda square to me.