Must Grima return?

[General Luigi]

I've been pondering the matter of who deals the finishing blow to Grima. Is there any point in the game in which it is stated that Grima will return again if Chrom is the one to finish him? I know that letting Chrom deal the finishing blow makes it possible that Grima will come back some time in the future, but I have no memory of the game ever saying that Grima will come back if Chrom is the one to finish him. Does anyone know if the game ever addresses that question? Grima's article in the Fire Emblem Wiki says Grima will sleep for a thousand years if Chrom deals the finishing blow, but I have no memory of that ever being mentioned in the game. Maybe it's only brought up in the Japanese version? If someone has the actual quote from the game that covers this (assuming said quote exists), could they please post it?

[mercilesscharizard]

It'll most likely depend on what decision is made "canon."

[Crooks]

In the beginning of chapter 25, Naga states that the power they have given Chrom isn't enough to vanquish Grima, it will only put them to sleep for a few centuries. That is where Robin comes up with the idea to vanquish Grima themself. I suggest checking out a YouTube video playthrough for chapter 25 to get the exact dialogue.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Crooks

[Anacybele]

Naga specifically says that neither she nor Grima have the power to destroy each other, as they are not actually gods. She says that the only thing that can destroy Grima is himself. And Robin is essentially Grima since Grima took control of future Robin. So yeah, Grima would definitely return if Chrom dealt the final blow.

[bookofholsety]

the closest thing to a supporting quote i could find was this in chapter 25

Chrom
We must find some way to break this unholy cycle! We can't just keep putting Grima back to sleep every few centuries. Otherwise we merely will his vengeance on our descendants.

to my knowledge, nothing is said that grima ABSOLUTELY WILL return if finished off by chrom, but everyone takes the stance that the chance very much exists that he will, and even a chance of it happening is a problem that is worth preventing if they can

of course, chrom promptly forgets that because he seriously thinks having his ~*~*~*~*~*~best friend~*~*~*~*~*~ around is more important than saving future generations, but whatever

[General Luigi]

Okay, so I've looked over recordings of the end of Chapter 24 and the beginning of Chapter 25 in the North American version, and it appears to be as I recall; there was no mention of his return being inevitable. Thinking about it, that makes sense. The only reason Grima was able to return in the first place was because he had a suitable vessel in the form of Robin, someone who had to be selectively bred by the Grimleal over the course of many generations. Thus, unless I missed something in the game's script, it is possible to keep Grima sealed away forever even if the Falchion is used to defeat him, though it would require some extra effort on the part of the living.

[Wander]

Okay, so I've looked over recordings of the end of Chapter 24 and the beginning of Chapter 25 in the North American version, and it appears to be as I recall; there was no mention of his return being inevitable. Thinking about it, that makes sense. The only reason Grima was able to return in the first place was because he had a suitable vessel in the form of Robin, someone who had to be selectively bred by the Grimleal over the course of many generations. Thus, unless I missed something in the game's script, it is possible to keep Grima sealed away forever even if the Falchion is used to defeat him, though it would require some extra effort on the part of the living.

I always assumed this was implied when I played through. I figure it was to assuage the conscience of players that didn't have MU take one for the team. IE, he may never come back anyway if our ancestors are careful, so why make an unnecessary sacrifice?

Of course, realistically speaking, in 1000 years Grima's just a legend/boogeyman nobody cares about so obviously he'd end up coming back at some point. But yeah, it does take a specific set of circumstances for him to be revived, like the ones used in the game.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Okay, so I've looked over recordings of the end of Chapter 24 and the beginning of Chapter 25 in the North American version, and it appears to be as I recall; there was no mention of his return being inevitable. Thinking about it, that makes sense. The only reason Grima was able to return in the first place was because he had a suitable vessel in the form of Robin, someone who had to be selectively bred by the Grimleal over the course of many generations. Thus, unless I missed something in the game's script, it is possible to keep Grima sealed away forever even if the Falchion is used to defeat him, though it would require some extra effort on the part of the living.

You know that if Grima is sealed, he doesn't have to wait for another vessel to turn up, right? Avatar is still sitting right there with a giant Grima mark on his hand, and it's not like vengeful Earth Dragons don't have a history of returning way earlier than expected.

I just spoiled FE14's plot for all of you.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

But Czar, many assume the canon ending is the "No" ending! :O

of course, chrom promptly forgets that because he seriously thinks having his ~*~*~*~*~*~best friend~*~*~*~*~*~ around is more important than saving future generations, but whatever

I know he fucks up badly with this, but sometimes we want to have the people we love close to us. Assuming everyone loves the Avatar or at least they see him as a friend, not having him anymore would cause all sorts of sadness... but of course, even in the "No" ending, the Avatar is magically alive again because ???.

[Ownagepuffs]

Because the power of friendship bonds can overcome death. Awakening pls.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

What about Phila then

[shadowofchaos]

What about Phila then

She's an FE4 reference.

And we know what happens in FE4. |D

Edited July 25, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[mercilesscharizard]

She's an FE4 reference.

And we know what happens in FE4. |D

As in Fury or someone else (never played FE4 and I'm a bit curious)?

Edited July 25, 2014 by mercilesscharizard

[shadowofchaos]

As in Fury or someone else (never played FE4 and I'm a bit curious)?

Everyone dies.

That's the reference I meant.

Mahnya is the one Philein/Phila is referencing specifically.

Edited July 25, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[RJWalker]

They always come back. They always do.

[NoNameAtAll]

Everyone dies.

Finn says otherwise and shoves a Brave Lance up your rectum.

Well, technically there are other survivors, but Finn's the only one who was playable in Gen 1 and 2...and Thracia for that matter.

[Ownagepuffs]

Finn says otherwise and shoves a Brave Lance up your rectum.

Well, technically there are other survivors, but Finn's the only one who was playable in Gen 1 and 2...and Thracia for that matter.

Finn gets credit for being a valuable unit I. gen 1, 2, and Thracia. Go Finn. Ultimate bro.

Why do the dragons keep coming back?

[General Luigi]

You know that if Grima is sealed, he doesn't have to wait for another vessel to turn up, right? Avatar is still sitting right there with a giant Grima mark on his hand, and it's not like vengeful Earth Dragons don't have a history of returning way earlier than expected.

I disagree. Just as the Awakening ceremony requires a very specific set of circumstances, the game implies through the gathering at the Table, Validar's seizure of the completed Fire Emblem, and the elaborate breeding program the Grimleal carried out, that Grima can't just pop back into the world whenever he wants. If it was as easy as you believed, Grima would have simply revived himself when the Avatar was trying to rescue Emmeryn. Besides, even Medeus needed some other pieces on the board before he was able to come back either time. As such, I have every reason to believe that Grima not only has to wait for another vessel, but also needs a huge amount of life force from the Grimleal and also the completed Fire Emblem. It is also very likely that these things must be gathered at the Table. While it is true that Grima had the Avatar right there, please consider how the game ends if Chrom deals the finishing blow. There is no mention of Grima immediately reviving himself and forcing the Avatar to become one with him (besides, the Avatar arguably shook off the possession of two Grimas just a moment ago). Rather, we get a happy ending and the Avatar's "happily ever after" blurb in the credits is unchanged. I would think that if Grima had the means to revive himself through the Avatar right then and there, he would have done so, and it would have been brought up in the ending.

[NoNameAtAll]

Naga specifically says that neither she nor Grima have the power to destroy each other.

Which promptly got shat upon in Future Past 3. Twice over.

[Czar_Yoshi]

But Czar, many assume the canon ending is the "No" ending! :O

And Nintendo is a company who has no qualms with making "you die in the final boss fight" be canon.

I disagree. Just as the Awakening ceremony requires a very specific set of circumstances, the game implies through the gathering at the Table, Validar's seizure of the completed Fire Emblem, and the elaborate breeding program the Grimleal carried out, that Grima can't just pop back into the world whenever he wants. If it was as easy as you believed, Grima would have simply revived himself when the Avatar was trying to rescue Emmeryn. Besides, even Medeus needed some other pieces on the board before he was able to come back either time. As such, I have every reason to believe that Grima not only has to wait for another vessel, but also needs a huge amount of life force from the Grimleal and also the completed Fire Emblem. It is also very likely that these things must be gathered at the Table. While it is true that Grima had the Avatar right there, please consider how the game ends if Chrom deals the finishing blow. There is no mention of Grima immediately reviving himself and forcing the Avatar to become one with him (besides, the Avatar arguably shook off the possession of two Grimas just a moment ago). Rather, we get a happy ending and the Avatar's "happily ever after" blurb in the credits is unchanged. I would think that if Grima had the means to revive himself through the Avatar right then and there, he would have done so, and it would have been brought up in the ending.

No he doesn't. The emblem is incomplete when he's revived (Basilio stole all the gemstones) and it doesn't slow him down a bit.

So that leaves just needing a vessel, some life force and being at the table. Avatar is still around, and he's the only thing that takes centuries to prepare. Being at the table is pretty easy for any intelligent villain to set up, and the life force may not need to be willing- the Grimleal in Cht.22 are practically hypnotized.

Anyway, it's not out of the realm of plausibility (or at least not strictly impossible), which might as well mean it will happen.

[shadowofchaos]

Which promptly got shat upon in Future Past 3. Twice over.

Who cares? The story for those chapters are better anyway.

[NoNameAtAll]

Who cares? The story for those chapters are better anyway.

Grima did what only Medeus and Loptyr dreamed of. Grima for best villain?

But yeah, you've a point there. Just saying that it kinda got shat on there. Sorta.

[General Luigi]

Which promptly got shat upon in Future Past 3. Twice over.

Really? When was it stated that the Grima from that timeline would never come back? Maybe I missed that part, but I'm not seeing it in a video of that chapter.

No he doesn't. The emblem is incomplete when he's revived (Basilio stole all the gemstones) and it doesn't slow him down a bit.

So that leaves just needing a vessel, some life force and being at the table. Avatar is still around, and he's the only thing that takes centuries to prepare. Being at the table is pretty easy for any intelligent villain to set up, and the life force may not need to be willing- the Grimleal in Cht.22 are practically hypnotized.

Anyway, it's not out of the realm of plausibility (or at least not strictly impossible), which might as well mean it will happen.

My bad. Case of mistaken memory. Again, yes, I don't deny the possibility of Grima being revived. My view was never that he can't be revived, but that it is possible for him to be denied the opportunity of ever reviving himself. It would require some work on the part of Grima's enemies, but it is doable. Preventing a suitable vessel from surfacing is a simple matter of counter-eugenics; it was only through a very elaborate program of selective breeding, and now that the ideal vessel exists, keeping track of his/her descendants is much easier than it would have been in the past--though the possibility of another fell bloodline other than the Avatar's existing is certainly there. As for the Grimleal, that's a more complicated task, but also one that can be accomplished. Since only the Grimleal were absorbed, it appears to follow that Grima cannot absorb the life force of non-Grimleal and/or cannot enthrall non-Grimleal. As such, turning Grima's worshipers away from him will deprive him of the life force necessary for him to revive himself.

[Czar_Yoshi]

For FP3, compare the good ending with the bad ending. In the bad ending (Lucina survives, but some of the other children didn't make it) Grima specifically vows to return again, but doesn't say anything on the subject in the good ending. From the contrast, it's quite likely that he's gone for good.

As for turning away Grima's followers, if there's one thing more certain in FE than sealed dragons returning, it's that persecuting people with links to those dragons makes them evil (see FE4). Also the Grimleal were absorbed because they were offering themselves to Grima, yes, but from Cht.22's example they may not have done so willingly ("they plod along as if possessed!"). It might be possible to offer other non-willing sacrifices if similar mass-mind control could be achieved. It's also possible that the sacrifices had to be somehow "prepared" for Grima- note the lack of masses of people in the altar room. All there is is some purple pyre on the altar.

[General Luigi]

Not saying you'll return is not the same as saying you won't return. As such, I don't consider Grima's silence in the good ending to be proof of him being gone for good in that timeline.

As for turning the Grimleal away, who said anything about persecution? This is Chrom we're talking about, not Chrom's father. Also, I'm not talking about how the Grimleal willingly offered themselves, but how they worshiped Grima in the first place. Needless to say, you're not going to offer yourself to a deity you don't worship, let alone a deity you consider to be your enemy (Grima technically isn't a deity, but my point still stands). Even if we assume they did not want to offer themselves, the game only mentions the Grimleal going "as if possessed," which suggests to me that Grima (or whoever was behind the mind-control) was unable to control non-Grimleal. After all, the Shepherds pursued Validar to the Table, yet they were unaffected by whatever was bringing the Grimleal there.

Edited July 26, 2014 by General Luigi