TOUHOU ~ Official Touhou Chat Thread~

[ZemZem]

I wonder how SakuyaB will be when I get to DDC.

[Scarlet]

SakuyaB in DDC is... ...pretty basic. Her ability is great for scoring, but she doesn't have anything to offer that helps you survive. She's not hard to use, but not great for actually beating the game if you're not that familiar with it.

[Emeraldfox]

I usually play as Reimu these days. Except SA, Marisa only.

[ZemZem]

I'll need to go back to the Touhous I downloaded recently and play with Reimu or Marisa.

SakuyaB in DDC is... ...pretty basic. Her ability is great for scoring, but she doesn't have anything to offer that helps you survive. She's not hard to use, but not great for actually beating the game if you're not that familiar with it.

I doubt I'm gonna beat the game, but I suppose SakuyaB will help me get into the game.

[Scarlet]

I doubt I'm gonna beat the game, but I suppose SakuyaB will help me get into the game.

To get into the game, I'd actually recommend using SakuyaA instead. SakuyaA has homing shots when focused and a shield bomb that can protect you twice when used well.

Why don't you use SakuyaA for your first few runs, and then switch to SakuyaB for the draft runs once you're a bit more comfortable with the game?

Edited April 2, 2014 by Scarlet

[ZemZem]

Alright, deal.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Vampire-chan you lied to me. ReimuB in UFO is NOT Persuasion Needles.

[Scarlet]

Vampire-chan you lied to me. ReimuB in UFO is NOT Persuasion Needles.

I'm pretty sure I actually specifically pointed out that Reimu's shot types are reversed in UFO.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Quote or it didn't happen. :/

Next time we do a draft (soon, hopefully), I'm going to specifically ask for Persuasion Needle...

[Scarlet]

Quote or it didn't happen. :/

Since the relevant post contains a quote itself, I'll link to it instead.

Here.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Well I wasn't paying attention.

On a different.note, when will the next Touhou draft be?

[Kriemhild]

So it turns out HardMode!Unzan destroys my face. Like, seriously, wtf.

Fixed, because a mere hitbox can't destroy your face. Unless you're referring to the non-spells, which I doubt.

Unzan's face destroys your face in the last spell

It doesn't help that HardMode!Nazrin and Kogasa actually require bombs sometimes. Spawning bullets right on top of my face like Lunatic!Yuugi does is not cool!

Wait, which spell spawns bullets on your face? The only one I can think of is Kogasa's rain, but that would be ridiculously difficult if bullets spawned that low...

Entering Stage 4 at 1.00 Power like a boss. \o/

How many lives though? It's not like Nue cares about your power level.

Of course my run got killed by Most Valuable Vajra.

Wait, can ReimuB's bomb even skip that?

Proto, you lied to me, I'm finding MoF harder than EoSD

I've always acknowledged that MoF has more difficult bullet patterns than EoSD/TD/whatever. What I meant was that MoF is easier to 1cc, because you can literally just spam bombs on everything that troubles you.

I also finally 1cc'd UFO Normal with MarisaB (the only shot type I hadn't done it with yet), but wow, UFO MarisaB is the worst shot type in any Touhou game I've ever seen.

Like, wow.

It feels like she's at 0 Power throughout the whole game, no matter what. In a game where your Power cannot drop below 1.

Eh? I thought MarisaB is the one that can shoot everything on the screen (like, literally everything, including all angles behind her) while unfocused and can then focus all of those shots into a narrower, more powerful, focused shot? Or were you referring only to her unfocused power?

Marisa seems to either be hit or miss, from what I've seen.

I think Marisa has always been the fast powerful character, even when she was nerfed for balancing. But compared to Reimu, her features aren't always too great for the game. Being fast could make micrododging hell, especially with a larger hitbox than Reimu. Marisa usually gets the gimmicky stuff too, and attempts to balance them don't always work well, in either direction. She's much more balanced when her features are very normal, but when her features start getting gimicky, she ends up being either way too good, or really horrible. Note that I don't actually Marisa much, so I'm just guessing based on my perceptions of the shot types and not on actual experience.

My Marisa+Nitori pick for SA wasn't actually TOO bad for me, since I thought I had a pretty great Stage 1.

Just wondering, but which of the other SA shot types have you checked out? Patchy's Water Sign and Alice's focused shot have amazing utility, while unfocused Alice and Yukari hit really hard. Nitori's main specialty is panic-bombing and deathbombing, which isn't really a general-purpose utility, but still really good for those specific areas.

Stage 1 isn't really a great test for shot type comparisons btw.

Honestly, while ReimuA is blatantly better than any other shot type in that game, pretty much all shot types in SA are usable, although MarisaA comes closest to being complete trash since she completely falls apart if you actually use bombs and very likely never recovers until you drop down to your final life.

I disagree with ReimuA being the best, actually. MarisaB has awesome utility with Water Sign while Metal Sign and Earth are really amazing sometimes. Wood Sign shotgun bomb is also really overpowered if you can plan them beforehand (yes, Fera, planning bombs is a Touhou skill, stop ranting about NMNBC). My SA 1cc involved heavily abusing Patchy's versatility, and I very much doubt I can 1cc with ReimuA.

Not saying that MarisaB is objectively better than ReimuA, but ReimuA's superiority is definitely arguable. I agree with MarisaA being the worst, though the main reason I couldn't get into her was because I couldn't bring myself to focus for spread and unfocus for focus-fire.

I usually play as Reimu these days. Except SA, Marisa only.

WILD EMILY APPEARED!

To get into the game, I'd actually recommend using SakuyaA instead. SakuyaA has homing shots when focused and a shield bomb that can protect you twice when used well.

I agree with that. Add in shift-tapping, and you have what I'd easily consider the best character for survival in DDC.

Why don't you use SakuyaA for your first few runs, and then switch to SakuyaB for the draft runs once you're a bit more comfortable with the game?

Wait. Hold on just a moment. ZM got SakuyaB for DDC???

*checks draft thread*

Holy soap! Screw beating Fera, I need to worry about beating ZM for DDC!

Vampire-chan you lied to me. ReimuB in UFO is NOT Persuasion Needles.

Nope. You missed ReimuA (persuasion needles) because I took her first. I took her first because it was the only shot type Fera 1cc'd with.

The problem is basically one of the most essential components of a draft and not a problem: you gotta prioritize between your different choices and may have to deal with undesirable choices caused by other drafters taking what you wanted. It wouldn't be fun otherwise!

On a different.note, when will the next Touhou draft be?

Hmmm, while I myself wouldn't participate then, an Easy Modo draft might be a good idea for those players struggling to even 1cc one game on Normal. Naggy probably had the right idea when he said that Easy Modo would lead to fairer competition.

In other news, I just tried some MS Extra. Alice's "Day the Lava Sea Split" (yes, I made that name up) is really, really difficult. I survived for quite a long time and her HP is huge. This really made me appreciate how incredibly gentle Sanae is in MoF Normal. And this is only Alice's first spell

Also, I noticed one advantage of the PC-98 games over the Windows games is that the play area is a square, so you have much more horizontal distance. Otherwise, the lava would've killed me really early on.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Railgun

[ZemZem]

I think Marisa has always been the fast powerful character, even when she was nerfed for balancing. But compared to Reimu, her features aren't always too great for the game. Being fast could make micrododging hell, especially with a larger hitbox than Reimu. Marisa usually gets the gimmicky stuff too, and attempts to balance them don't always work well, in either direction. She's much more balanced when her features are very normal, but when her features start getting gimicky, she ends up being either way too good, or really horrible. Note that I don't actually Marisa much, so I'm just guessing based on my perceptions of the shot types and not on actual experience.

Neeeeeerrffed.

What game was she most good in?

Wait. Hold on just a moment. ZM got SakuyaB for DDC???

*checks draft thread*

Holy soap! Screw beating Fera, I need to worry about beating ZM for DDC!

You'll probably beat me. *sweatdrops*

Edited April 3, 2014 by ZeeEmm

[Kriemhild]

Neeeeeerrffed.

Why would you take away Bomb Auto-Collection and still make her super-slow during Master Spark which still lasts for a really long time? Why???

What game was she most good in?

Relative to what?

If we're comparing shot types by themselves, I'd say the best Marisa is MarisaC in MoF, because frostthrower shotguns are awesome.

If we're comparing shot types based on how they perform in their respective games, I'd say MarisaA in UFO, because lasers help a lot in destroying UFOs and she suffers less from UFO's unforgiving power loss upon death.

If we're comparing shot types with other shot types and how they perform in the same game, I'd say MarisaB in SA, because her versatility and powerful bomb can be very effective when abused properly. She at least requires the least dodging skill for 1ccing SA imo.

If we're taking ease of use and game difficulty into consideration, I'd say MarisaA in EoSD, because her high power lets her finish spells quickly.

Again, I don't have much Marisa experience (except for EoSD, and very recently, MarisaB in SA), so RAYKITTY~ would likely offer better opinions.

I assume you're talking about Windows games btw, because LLS MarisaA is so good that she got me my first and only non-PoFV Hard 1cc.

You'll probably beat me. *sweatdrops*

SakuyaB is based entirely on generating more point items. Even if you don't 1cc, you could probably still beat my score!

I like how ZM completely ignored my comment about Sanae's gentleness

Edited April 3, 2014 by Railgun

[Fera]

ReimuB, because I've recently taken a liking to homing shot types for some reason.

But yeah, the difference between UFO Normal and UFO Hard is a bit bigger than I imagined. >_<

I also finally 1cc'd UFO Normal with MarisaB (the only shot type I hadn't done it with yet), but wow, UFO MarisaB is the worst shot type in any Touhou game I've ever seen.

Like, wow.

It feels like she's at 0 Power throughout the whole game, no matter what. In a game where your Power cannot drop below 1.

This is extremely encouraging.

I'll do an MoF replay analysis thing in a bit.

Also yes I know planning bombs is a skill, Proto, but you skip so many bloody things holy f man seriously be conservative with those things.

Easy Mode score whoring sounds like fun

[Kriemhild]

This is extremely encouraging.

Wait... you have MarisaB for UFO???

I'll do an MoF replay analysis thing in a bit.

Yay~!

Also yes I know planning bombs is a skill, Proto, but you skip so many bloody things holy f man seriously be conservative with those things.

Implying that my losses would be reduced if I didn't bombskip as much. MoF lets you regain Power, y'know. Absolutely none of the Yuugi bombskips reduce my 1ccability.

Also, I have looked at your MarisaB replay for reference, and you usually spent more resources than my bombskipping. Of course, I lost more due to high quantities of silly unexpected deaths, but that's unrelated to bombskipping. If anything, me being so vulnerable to silly deaths is even more of a reason to bombskip stuff that I don't completely fail at.

Easy Mode score whoring sounds like fun

It does, actually.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Unzan's face destroys your face in the last spell

I disagree with ReimuA being the best, actually. MarisaB is awesome

Holy soap! Screw beating Fera, I need to focus on beating ZM for DDC!

Nope. You missed ReimuA (persuasion needles) because I took her first. I took her first because it was the only shot type Fera 1cc'd with.

The problem is basically one of the most essential components of a draft and not a problem: you gotta prioritize between your different choices and may have to deal with undesirable choices caused by other drafters taking what you wanted. It wouldn't be fun otherwise!

Hmmm, while I myself wouldn't participate then, an Easy Modo draft might be a good idea for those players struggling to even 1cc one game on Normal. Naggy probably had the right idea when he said that Easy Modo would lead to fairer competition.

I keep getting fisted by Unzan.

I disagree because it's not Marisa/Alice.

No-one ever worries about facing me. :knoll:

Meanie face.

I know. But, for the most part, I think.that my choices are okay.

Eww easy modo

[Fera]

Suddenly, best UFO tracks.

[spoiler=another episode of fera paraphrasing raymond's commentary, ft. proto's mof efforts]Stage 1: Can't complain, a literally perfect run except for like 4 items collected barely below the PoC. Nothing to say about Minoriko.

Stage 2: Spinning around Marisa looks fun. You lost a teeny bit of faith but who cares. Nothing to say about Hina. Cool desync.

Stage 3: Faith loss prevention in check. Does graze even give any score in this game? Note that yellow-border score items retain full value even at the bottom of the screen. Monster Cucumber bomb, enh.

Stage 4: Nice deathbomb to Momiji. Could've bombed at the pre-Aya crows but eh.

Aya: Crossroads of Heaven is a fun card. Hidden in Leaves is one of Satori's recollections, which can get a little annoying sometimes when you misjudge which lane to enter. I did not know sitting in the corner for Illusionary Dominance could work out like that. Neat-o.

Stage 5: Holy soap that opening wave item drop. And then the double big-fairy item drops. At least you bombed to one of them, but that wasn't really a scoring bomb. The double fairies really are tons easier with MarisaC now that I look at it, but you still should've bombed more. That is a seriously massive amount of score lost though.

Sanae: I don't like Sanae's first card. I just plain don't like it. But you captured it anyway so woo. Almost Sea Split Capture! Third card nearly obtained but eh, blue wall misjudged. Oh well. Last card is laughably easy so no comment there.

Stage 6: A little more score dropped, but not as badly as Stage 5. Bullet-canceling with bombs also grants Faith, so there's that.

Kanako: Brave dodging on second non-spell! I forgot you had to do it completely unfocused. Wahahaha. Sad death on Hunting Shrine Ritual. We all have those moments, RIP Proto's first ever NMC. You were actually attempting Otensui.

And lastly, Mountain of Faith capture. Brilliant end to a fantastic run, with a little victory dance to top it off. You seriously put in every bit of your heart into this, 200+ runs. Props.

[Djeets]

Eh? UFO drafting has started? oAo

puku where is it

I'll send some with PM now, be patient ok?

[Scarlet]

On a different.note, when will the next Touhou draft be?

I dunno, but I definitely won't start another until the current one's finished.

I've been toying around with the idea of an Extra Mode draft, but from the looks of it I'd likely be the only player. xD"

An EASY MODO draft... Sure, I guess, although if I am to do that, I won't comment on the replays 'cause I don't want to watch EASY MODO replays. xD"

Fixed, because a mere hitbox can't destroy your face. Unless you're referring to the non-spells, which I doubt.

Fine, Unzan then. Still, losing four lives to a Stage 3 boss shouldn't happen. xD

Heck, I'm having an easier time with SA Lunatic than with UFO Hard!

Wait, which spell spawns bullets on your face? The only one I can think of is Kogasa's rain, but that would be ridiculously difficult if bullets spawned that low...

Kogasa's rain indeed does (in fact it already does so on Normal if you don't go with the rhythm, but on Hard there's no longer much of a rhythm to go with), as does every single one of Nazrin's non-spells. Even at the very bottom of the screen you're not quite safe from that happening.

How many lives though? It's not like Nue cares about your power level.

I think I had just one left at that point. xD

Wait, can ReimuB's bomb even skip that?

Probably not, at least not with only one. Fantasy Seal isn't very damaging. xD"

Eh? I thought MarisaB is the one that can shoot everything on the screen (like, literally everything, including all angles behind her) while unfocused and can then focus all of those shots into a narrower, more powerful, focused shot? Or were you referring only to her unfocused power?

I think that's the premise, but reality is different. Aside from the fact that being able to hit stuff behind you is completely useless for the majority of UFO, her backwards spread is very unimpressive even at 4 Power, and it's difficult to really hit anything with it.

And then there's the fact that these wave shots do basically no damage whatsoever (she has trouble killing normal random fairies. Let that sink in for a moment). Even when focused, the spread is so large that hitting anything with multiple wave shots at once is pretty difficult, and forget about shotgunning bosses in this game without using a bomb.

Speaking of her bomb, it's utter crap. It's basically SanaeA's bomb with half the power, half the duration and a third of the invincibility frames. Sitting on top of a boss unfocused while bombing at 4 Power deals damage comparable to SanaeB's shotgun, but if you do it for longer than like a second, your invincibility wears off and you die.

I disagree with ReimuA being the best, actually. MarisaB has awesome utility with Water Sign while Metal Sign and Earth are really amazing sometimes. Wood Sign shotgun bomb is also really overpowered if you can plan them beforehand (yes, Fera, planning bombs is a Touhou skill, stop ranting about NMNBC). My SA 1cc involved heavily abusing Patchy's versatility, and I very much doubt I can 1cc with ReimuA.

Not saying that MarisaB is objectively better than ReimuA, but ReimuA's superiority is definitely arguable. I agree with MarisaA being the worst, though the main reason I couldn't get into her was because I couldn't bring myself to focus for spread and unfocus for focus-fire.

Well, ReimuA has by far the strongest shot (4 Power ReimuA deals as much damage as 8 Power MarisaA hitting with all 8 of her lasers lololol), the best bomb (shotgunning with MarisaB deals a bit more damage, but has to be pre-planned. ReimuA's can deal decent damage anywhere at any time, gives the longest window of invincibility, and clears the entire screen of bullets after it wears off) and one of the more useful special abilities. And a smaller hitbox than Marisa, of course.

MarisaB is good, no doubt, and personally I've actually been having more success using ReimuB and ReimuC on Lunatic than ReimuA, but it's hard to argue against ReimuA objectively having the most advantages.

What game was she most good in?

Marisa was probably at her best in EoSD and MoF.

EoSD MarisaA is just really damn powerful, enough to destroy even Flandre's spells withhin seconds, especially when shotgunning. That, and being fast in EoSD is often quite useful, actually.

MoF Marisa has, aside from a ridiculously damaging bomb:

A: A very strong shot that you can adjust the spread-to-damage ratio of at any time

B: Strong, piercing lasers that would be pretty useful even without the Lv3 Laser glitch

C: Options that allow you to "shotgun" bosses from across the whole screen and basically allow you to be at two places at the same time during the stage parts.

Mind you, Reimu in MoF is by no means bad either, but Marisa in this game is amazing.

This is extremely encouraging.

I feel sorry for you. I really do. xD

Does graze even give any score in this game?

Nope, Graze does absolutely nothing in MoF other than produce the usual visual effect and sound. In fact the game doesn't even keep track of how many bullets you have grazed!

[Scarlet]

Eh? UFO drafting has started? oAo

Yup! You can find SA's results in the draft thread.

[Kriemhild]

So I tried out MarisaB in UFO just to check out how bad it actually is (read: excuse for avoiding TD Youmu practice because of how hard I fail at using her). I made it all the way to Shou's final spell. Regarding the eternal 0 Power, it was an exaggeration. But the power is still pretty weak. Spread shot is still nice, and I actually captured a few spells that I normally have trouble with when using ReimuA (because ReimuA had a hard time hitting the boss during those spells).

That being said, she has a very hard time dealing with UFOs because of how hard it is for her to kill fairies to feed the UFO. And she has an even harder time destroying the UFO after that. Even at full power. Her bomb is also really horrible. I bombed+shotgunned twice to Ichirin's final spell and she still had a tiny bit of HP left. Aside from the uselessness of her bombs, MarisaB seems to be doing fine against bosses, but has serious issues racking up resources during stages.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Railgun

[Scarlet]

Regarding the eternal 0 Power, it was an exaggeration.

Well, of course it was, but I did really get that feeling at times. xD

I mean, you really ought to rethink your position in life when Reimu's homing shot type kills bosses nearly twice as fast as you do. >_>

On a side note, I captured Sinker Ghost on Hard, do I win now

[Komeiji Koishi]

No-one ever worries about facing me. :knoll:

On a tangentially related note, I'm feeling like I'm getting better at Touhou.

[Fera]

Well, of course it was, but I did really get that feeling at times. xD

I mean, you really ought to rethink your position in life when Reimu's homing shot type kills bosses nearly twice as fast as you do. >_>

On a side note, I captured Sinker Ghost on Hard, do I win now

capture vajra on normal and you'll win