Difficulty.

[Sentacotus]

This is why I don't understand why so many people are wanting RD's difficulty back; it caters more to the "hardcore" crowd than the "casuals," and we could have a system that caters to both those crowds and the one in between. Maybe I'm just missing something to this argument (it seems like this more recent string of posts was a bit of a digression, but I'm likely just confused), but I don't think it's the best option at this point.

No one says they couldn't include casual mode like in Awakening.

[Ownagepuffs]

Okay. Awakening wasn't good with its difficulty scaling.

All difficulties feature a plethora of broken options and a regressive difficulty curve (especially on vanilla Lunatic, which falls off a cliff post-Ch.5), and the jump from Hard to Lunatic was excessive. Furthermore, none of the difficulty options are remotely challenging unless you place arbitrary restrictions on yourself, which is disappointing.

If you're going to sit here and honestly call Lunatic+ a cakewalk then I'm going to say you're full of shit.

[Jedi]

This is why I don't understand why so many people are wanting RD's difficulty back; it caters more to the "hardcore" crowd than the "casuals," and we could have a system that caters to both those crowds and the one in between. Maybe I'm just missing something to this argument (it seems like this more recent string of posts was a bit of a digression, but I'm likely just confused), but I don't think it's the best option at this point.

Because we want challenge, but there needs to be a good balance. FE has always had a bit of a tricky time being either difficult or casual.

Thus you get the crowds arguing about how easy Genealogy, Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance are and others arguing about how difficult Binding Blade, Radiant Dawn, Thracia and Mystery of the Emblem are.

We still argue what good design in this franchise is. And we are 13 games in, with Awakening now we have a whole new group of people, who are adding to the mix.

This fandom is a messy one although not as messy as some others. Its tricky with all the varying opinions and styles

[Topaz Light]

I don't know that I'd wanna liken the difficulty I'm looking for to any previous FE game. I'd more like for this game to be able to stand on its own as a gameplay experience than for it to just emulate an earlier game.

As for the difficulty level, I want something harder than Awakening, but I want there to be more effort put into the higher difficulties than just "By exactly how much should we buff the enemies' stats/numbers?", because that's really not an interesting way to increase the difficulty.

I'd like the game to make liberal usage of varying victory and defeat conditions and for it to be designed around situations where strategy, rather than the power of individual units, is the primary key to success.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Starlight36

[Knight Falchion]

No one says they couldn't include casual mode like in Awakening.

I thought that was an understood part of it (edit: even though I didn't imply anything about it in the slightest, haha, sorry), but not every casual player wants to actually play Casual mode. Again, I'm with the camp that's going for the more options, the better.

Because we want challenge, but there needs to be a good balance. FE has always had a bit of a tricky time being either difficult or casual.

I think having a spectrum of difficulties could achieve this, as aforementioned, and satisfy most people. I'm all for the more difficult end of that spectrum, but let the newer fans still experience the game fully.

Edited February 11, 2015 by The Legendary Falchion

[feplus]

If you're going to sit here and honestly call Lunatic+ a cakewalk then I'm going to say you're full of shit.

But it is.

People struggle with Luna+ because they limit themselves; no grinding, no SpotPass units, no SpotPass shops, no Renown items, etc. If a player uses everything the game gives him, Luna+ is straightforward.

Granted, challenge runs can be tough, but that's true of any FE game.

Edited February 11, 2015 by feplus

[Irysa]

The first few chapters of Lunatic + are most certainly not straightforward. <_<

[Splodge]

^ The problem with Lunatic and Lunatic is that they didn't feel like difficulty settings. They felt like extra game modes, like the prankster comets from Mario Galaxy or something. That's what people had a problem with, if the rest of the game was scaled with the lunatic, then there wouldn't be a problem.

As for difficulty, I say go Thraica level difficulty. By this I don't mean the actual difficulty, as it would be a big leap, but more the difficulty curve. Thracia, in my opinion, had one of the better difficulty curves in the series, and that applied at a lower base would be great for a game appealing to casuals and hardcores alike. The reason I pick this over another game with a good curve, like 7, is because this is more noticeable, and I like the feeling of improvement.

A seemingly unpopular opinion is that I also think that difficulty options shouldn't exist. Instead have the option to switch permadeath on or off, and to select enemy density. The density would work something like a sliding scale, with adding more enemies weakening the existing ones, and having less enemies making the remaining stronger. Instead of making the game easier/harder, it adapts it to that person's playstyle, and that's really important. I disagree with difficulty settings in general, as I think it is better to have a game that progressively gets more difficult at a tested and workable level, instead of a million different settings being made with little balance between them. Take a look at Awakening.

That enemy density is just an idea, but have options that change how the player plays the game, not how the game plays. In a sense, this also creates a truer difficulty, as instead of stat boosts and general bullshit like that, it makes the player play in the way they find difficult. Notice all the bold, and this is because not everyone finds the harder modes harder. People on this very thread find lunatic easy, and that's because of how they play. The idea of changing how the game is played, with a tight, consistent difficulty slope, with an acceptable amount of wake-up bosses is what I want.

Though this isn't going to happen.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Splodge

[Florete]

Yes. I'm not sure why they took it out in the first place, but here's to hoping it comes back.

How is Maniac any different from Lunatic aside from the name?

EDIT: Or are these actually separate difficulties in FE12?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[feplus]

The first few chapters of Lunatic + are most certainly not straightforward. <_<

I said Luna+ was straightforward, which is true. I also said Awakening suffers from a regressive difficulty curve: the first few maps are RNG-heavy and tough to get past, but, following those chapters, the game throws a bevy of broken resources your way.

[Irysa]

You can't say simultaneously claim that Lunatic+ as a whole is straightforward when the first bunch of maps are anything BUT that, and if you actually want to really trivialise it you'd be paying for DLC to grind it since lol@trying to use Risen encounters or spotbass battles to level up on that difficulty.

How is Maniac any different from Lunatic aside from the name?

EDIT: Or are these actually separate difficulties in FE12?

The difficulties in FE12 go Normal, Hard, Maniac, Lunatic, Lunatic Reverse. So yes they are separate.

^ The problem with Lunatic and Lunatic is that they didn't feel like difficulty settings. They felt like extra game modes, like the prankster comets from Mario Galaxy or something. That's what people had a problem with, if the rest of the game was scaled with the lunatic, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Lunatic + and Lunatic Reverse are definitely "extra" type of modes but I disagree that Lunatic or Merciless (H5 equivilant in FE11) feel like that at all. The way you play isn't really drastically changed.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Irysa

[feplus]

You can't say simultaneously claim that Lunatic+ as a whole is straightforward when the first bunch of maps are anything BUT that, and if you actually want to really trivialise it you'd be paying for DLC to grind it since lol@trying to use Risen encounters or spotbass battles to level up on that difficulty.

Sure you can: Luna+ is a straightforward difficulty with a few tricky earlygame maps.

DLC makes the mode even easier but is hardly necessary.

[Topazd]

Even if the difficulties didn't discourage non-DLC grinding, I think the argument would still be a little silly. When analyzing any given difficulty, people tend not to take grinding into account; you can basically trivialize any RPG with enough grinding. Just because you didn't grind the additional 10 levels even if the game technically allowed you to do that, you aren't "artificially restricting" yourself.

I can't speak for the difficulty as a whole, though.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Topazd255

[feplus]

Even if the difficulties didn't discourage non-DLC grinding, I think the argument would still be a little silly. When analyzing any given difficulty, people tend not to take grinding into account; you can basically trivialize any RPG with enough grinding. Just because you didn't grind the additional 10 levels even if the game technically allowed you to do that, you aren't "artificially restricting" yourself.

I can't speak for the difficulty as a whole, though.

Depends on the game and the time it takes to grind.

For instance, a player can spend fifteen minutes grinding the Tower of Valni and trivialize Sacred Stones to the point of mindlessness. So why wouldn't you? Not employing such convenience is fine if you want to challenge yourself, but it'd be disingenuous to pretend grinding isn't an option.

Same applies to the plethora of options available in Awakening. Grinding is a small slice of the pie; SpotPass units and Renown items are more significant.

[Ownagepuffs]

Lunatic+ is easy if you play the game a lot of times and get enough renown to sell the supreme emblem, buy Travant/Alvis and get boots.

Okay.

Edit: to clarify, saying the difficulty drops off completely post-C4 is incorrect. The game chills out post-C4 do give your guys some room to breathe and train everyone up. There are still difficulty spikes in the force of C12, where you are first introduced to squads led by promoted enemies and C17 which is the first map where literally everything is promoted and it stays that way. Even though the difficulty is somewhat constant after C17, there are still a few ball busting maps like C18 and C19 along the way.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[feplus]

Lunatic+ is easy if you play the game a lot of times and get enough renown to sell the supreme emblem, buy Travant/Alvis and get boots.

Okay.

In other words, Luna+ is easy if you take advantage of what the game gives you and don't artificially limit yourself.

Yes. I believe that's precisely what I said at the beginning of this exchange.

[Florete]

In other words, Luna+ is easy if you take advantage of what the game gives you and don't artificially limit yourself.

Yes. I believe that's precisely what I said at the beginning of this exchange.

I don't like this assumption that everyone is going to grind out runs and renown previously to playing Luna+ to make sure Luna+ is a breeze, therefore Luna+ is a breeze.

What if I don't? What if I play through Hard, then Lunatic, then want to try Lunatic+? I have little Renown, no DLC. How hard is Luna+ here? Or does this still count as "artificially limiting" myself because I didn't grind Renown (in a separate save file) and buy DLC? That would be absurd.

[omega zero]

I see that people have already discussed RNG enemy skills. The primary argument being that un-winnable chance setups are not good game design.

Don't know if this has been discussed already, but should the top-tier difficulty of the game be designed with the same constraints that are available to the player? For example, no Hawkeye, no Vantage+, no illegal stats/forged weapons. Some exceptions like boss-exclusive skills are fine, but should generic enemies have exclusive skills/weapons?

I can see some people argue that exclusive skills/weapons are necessary to create difficulty, because otherwise (experienced) human knowledge typically surpasses the game's AI. Or should the devs design top-tier difficulty with "smarter" AI and puzzle-like enemy deployments instead of using "+" skills?

And then there is grinding/bonus resources. It seem like IS did try to discourage grinding given the modified EXP formula in Lunatic, but I suppose it is up for debate as to whether or not they did a sufficient job.

[feplus]

Let's use conservative estimates: you've played through Hard to get your bearings and played through Lunatic for a challenge; you've spent just a few hours messing with SpotPass teams and postgame content, and feel ready to tackle Luna+. This is not typical- I suspect most players who approach Luna+ will have spent much more time with the game- but let's run with it.

In this scenario, you've got a modest 1000 Renown, enough for the Large bullion and all preceding items. That's, what, roughly 45K in value? You can statistically buff up your Avatar, equip him or her with Cecilia's Gale, prepare for an early reclass (probably into Dark Mage), and hire a couple of tremendously overpowered SpotPass units -- all for free.

The more Renown you start with, the easier things get. None of this requires any grinding. (Though I'd ask you what I asked Topaz: if grinding is an option and makes things easier, why not use it? at what point is the time cost for grinding small enough to make not grinding an artificial restriction?)

[The Geek]

I've never been able to get past Chapter 3 on Lunatic. Even when abusing Frederick and Pair Up.

[Ownagepuffs]

Lol, count again.

You get 4 stat boosters up to 1000 renown. That's 5k. You state we're using them to buff up avatar, so that leaves a seed of trust, second seal, glass sword, Levin sword, Orsin's hatchet, beast killer, long bow, Ephraim's lance, and Large bullion.

The Celica's gale is out because we're giving that to avatar and we're using the second seal to reclass him/her. After the large bullion, those items do not add up to 35k gold. In fact, I don't even think they add up to 10k.

In order to recruit a spotpass for free, you have to beat them. Even a rigged water trick avatar with Celica's gale cannot solo a Lunatic+ spotpass team with the boosters. So we're going to have to buy their loyalty. I want you to tell me who we're going to blow all our money on to recruit, especially since we need don't get another bullion until Paralogue 4. Travant costs 18.2k, Arvis costs 20.9k, King Marth cost 22.7k. This doesn't even take into account things like Hawkeye, Luna+, and counter that can kill these units.

Saying L+ is easy when you get max renown is silly.

[feplus]

I double checked and my numbers are correct: 1,000 Renown nets you roughly 45K in assets.

Nowhere did I mention recruiting SpotPass units for free. You recruit them with the free assets you're given. A solid cheap option is Jamka (prepackaged with Galeforce); a solid expensive option is Jaffar.

Nowhere did I mention needing max Renown.

[Knight Falchion]

Don't know if this has been discussed already, but should the top-tier difficulty of the game be designed with the same constraints that are available to the player? For example, no Hawkeye, no Vantage+, no illegal stats/forged weapons. Some exceptions like boss-exclusive skills are fine, but should generic enemies have exclusive skills/weapons?

I can see some people argue that exclusive skills/weapons are necessary to create difficulty, because otherwise (experienced) human knowledge typically surpasses the game's AI. Or should the devs design top-tier difficulty with "smarter" AI and puzzle-like enemy deployments instead of using "+" skills?

I personally don't mind hax forges (too much) and exclusive skills so long as they're set. Y'know, something like Apotheosis? The set of skills featured by Apotheosis' enemies was like a puzzle that you could figure out, especially since they weren't super aggressive. However, I think the key to a top-tier difficulty mode lies in some sort of mix between giving the enemy an interesting set of skills as well as the smart AI and puzzle-like deployments you mentioned.

Basically, I wouldn't mind seeing an Apotheosis map again or even a mode similar to it. Maybe on the mode part. The focus should be on AI and smart enemy deployment.

Edited February 11, 2015 by The Legendary Falchion

[The Geek]

I double checked and my numbers are correct: 1,000 Renown nets you roughly 45K in assets.

Nowhere did I mention recruiting SpotPass units for free. You recruit them with the free assets you're given. A solid cheap option is Jamka (prepackaged with Galeforce); a solid expensive option is Jaffar.

Nowhere did I mention needing max Renown.

Not gonna argue that once you gain access to bonus stuff you can easily break the game over your knee, but the problem that I (and I'm sure plenty of other people) have is being able to even get to the point where bonus stuff becomes available. Chapter 2 in particular is brutal.

[Knight Falchion]

Not gonna argue that once you gain access to bonus stuff you can easily break the game over your knee, but the problem that I (and I'm sure plenty of other people) have is being able to even get to the point where bonus stuff becomes available. Chapter 2 in particular is brutal.

Yeah, Ch. 2 alone (actually that and counter) was why I never did Loony +. Plz no Luna Brigade noooooooo- *see avatar*

I still think vanilla Lunatic is a good difficulty, though. It suffers a bit from some of the late and mid-game chapters not being all that challenging, but it was a rewarding mode overall. I would like FE14 to increase the amount of maps like FE13's Ch. 12 or at least have more pressuring chapters.