Speedrun Criteria

[Vorena]

Lets face it, I am an AGDQ/SGDQ baby and got into the idea of wanting to do speed time on this game since it is the one I feel I know the most about.

However, I am not certain what criteria to go with. I think getting a fast run of HHM with full chapter engagement and recruitment would be cool to see, but I feel it would still be rather slow nonetheless. I feel the criteria for a run should be something like merely making it to the final chapter and beating the boss. Avoiding full recruitment unless that person makes a difference along with avoiding the side chapters.

What to you feel would be entertaining, but quickly short run time? I would like to aim for something like 2-3 hours in length tops. Anything less is better.

[Florete]

Any% is always just getting to the end from the beginning, so in this case, recruitment and such only matters as far as it saves you time. If a character death saves time, that's what you do. Anything else is just a different category (deathless, 100%, etc.). From what I've seen, any% for this game is a little over an hour.

What is "full chapter engagement"? Opening all chests and stealing all items? Killing every enemy?

Two special categories I think could be interesting to see would be all recruits/maps (recruiting every character and going to every possible chapter) and S rank.

[Vorena]

By the full chapters I meant doing all side quest missions. Sort of worded that poorly without reviewing what I had posted lol I am surprised to hear the game on any% done in an hour. Is that some TAS stuff by full manipulation of the RNG? I went to speeddemosarchive and found a run done by a person from 2005. Apparently, they did it in under the 3 hour limit. They skipped side quests and went with Lyn's route and Eliwood's normal route.

Though it might be cool to do a more unique category such as all side quests and full recruitment or split it into particular routes.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Vorena

[Florete]

1:33:26. More than I remember, but still well within what you're looking for.

It's not TAS, but it is full RNG manipulation.

[Vorena]

What? How did I ever miss that appearing at 2014? I have been looking through many of the 2014 games and never saw this. Well, same guy on the SDA run, but a much faster time. Same thing with any% LynHard and Eliwood normal. I can see that being the fastest route for avoiding forced actions and dialogue along with two fewer chapters in Eliwood route over Hector route. Not too much of a fan of the idea of doing a run already started by someone else unless I could see some obvious improvements over it. Maybe Lyn Hard/Hector Normal/Skip Side Quests/Recruitment. Or maybe actually do full recruitment since you can get everyone on (sort of everyone) on hector normal. Though having to get Bartre to a particular level would be a funny side task.

I am not sure what is meant by RNG manipulation. The only things I can think I might manipulate would be the secret desert drops. Otherwise, I feel normal on any mode is easy enough to avoid getting RNG screwed over. Especially if you make certain choices such as Lucius has a high speed/magic growth and is still usable despite poor growths.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Vorena

[dondon151]

you probably missed it because it's the bonus stream. FE7 and FE8 had a bid war in 2014 and FE8 won. the run happened to be disastrous and molotov's FE7 run was much better, but of course it got like, no exposure.

an RNG-planned run is basically required for the GBA games. the FE8 runner in 2014 (bertin) chose not to use an RNG-planned run, his seth got screwed, and the run never finished because it ran over the estimated time. an RNG-planned run lets you manipulate growths such that you'll always get what you need, it lets you manipulate crits if necessary, and it's deterministic so you'll never have to waste time improvising for an unforeseen situation. if you make a mistake that causes the RNG to go out of the expected order, you just reset the chapter and attempt it again.

all of the GBA FE games have pretty good routes. i'm pretty sure that vykan has the best FE8 routes, molotov has a good FE7 route, and legrandgrand has a good FE6 route that was based off a route i made a long time ago.

[Vorena]

True, I have no idea what to plan for this type of thing. Simply looking at the first few chapters I think some amount of time might be saved by abusing enemy phase more. Managing menus in fire emblem always takes time along with movement. If you have to worry about RNG on the cursor the more player phase actions you make the more time consuming the game becomes. I feel like chapter one might have been faster by instead of manually attacking and rescue chaining Lyn you might have simply moved Lyn and Kent/Sain onto a forest tile with iron sword and move across the map in this method having the enemy attack you on enemy phase. The bandits only have ~25 hit with an iron sword and forest tile. Both Sain and Lyn 2RKO the enemies there.

Plus, as you have shown in FE6/7 that the GBA games are usually very lenient on stats. I can pretty much try to strategize for situations to be completed using very reliable methods or have back-ups in case something goes wrong. Simply not trying to rely upon a unit to have certain stats by a particular time unless they can be accommodated. I guess it would not be the fastest. Or the simplest solution is not compare myself to what is already been done, but attempt to do something different. I am not sure. However, I do believe I am sold on doing a LynHard+Hector/Eliwood Normal run where stats mean less. Sort of toying with the idea of wanting to do full recruitment.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Vorena

[feplus]

I'm of the opinion that any% FE7 should exclude Lyn Mode, for two reasons:

1. any% is typically defined as getting to the credits from a fresh file. Since you can start a fresh file from Eliwood / Hector Mode after completing the game once, that would be quicker. For comparison, look at how Diddy Kong Racing runners use TT despite him being an unlockable character. Same logic: once he's obtained on one file, he's available on all fresh files.

2. Lyn Mode is a snooze cruise.

Learning about RN manipulation is essential. moltov's route is improvable but also really clever (love how he manipulates enemy spawns in CoD by avoiding spawn boxes), so I'd use his run as a blueprint.

Edited February 15, 2015 by feplus

[Vorena]

I think it depends upon how you play Lyn mode. I honestly never knew about trying to block with dorcas to breeze through that chapter. To me, that was sort of instantly worth using Lyn Mode to showcase that sort of information. Also, +7 hp and +2 strength can go a long way from early game. Its surprising how easily Florina stays a very good combat unit by simply getting those two items.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Vorena

[feplus]

It's easier but it's also slower and probably makes for a worse watch for most people. Just something to think about.

[Gwimpage]

I was looking into routing LHM and HNM earlier this week and came to the conclusion that the LHM stuff outside of early-early game is pretty optimal. The problem with changing the route to give Florina or Kent more EXP in LM, is that they have to save time later on to be worth the trouble. Florina gets by just fine with the amount of EXP she's given here, and Kent isn't needed excessively past LM. Kentadin would only save time later on in rout chapters since Marcus and RNG manipulation exist.

Basically if you invest time into something, it better give returns later on. You should be trying to get through on the minimum and only grab things along the way or level up people if it'll save time.

The AGDQ 2014 Bonus stream run is pretty outdated strat-wise, legrandgrand has been working on the game since the run and has improved the route a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ek8tCOqxls

Full recruitment would be an interesting run, but you're only forced to go to Ch17x for Canas and 31x for Karla (Oh god, Bartre) and there's a lot of extra movement that isn't present in any% like recruiting Lucius or Jaffar.

[dondon151]

do you still get jaffar if you fulfill the 28x requirements but choose not to go?

[feplus]

do you still get jaffar if you fulfill the 28x requirements but choose not to go?

Yes.

EDIT: Take a look at this comment from the linked video...

The intro isn't played because I mash start and it skips every cutscenes of the game except the dialogue between Eliwood and Athos after chap 27.

If you are on your first playthrough the cutscene after chap 28 can't be skipped either, but you can on next playthrough.

Based on this, I see no reason to treat a LM run as any%.

Edited February 19, 2015 by feplus

[Gwimpage]

EDIT: Take a look at this comment from the linked video...

The intro isn't played because I mash start and it skips every cutscenes of the game except the dialogue between Eliwood and Athos after chap 27.

If you are on your first playthrough the cutscene after chap 28 can't be skipped either, but you can on next playthrough.

Based on this, I see no reason to treat a LM run as any%.

Lyn mode is only 21ish minutes and it gains a good chunk of EXP for Florina. Missing her EXP and stat boosters hurts but leveling her up in Hector mode isn't a big deal so skipping LM is definitely possible.

The broad definition of any% is a fresh file to the credits but there are always exceptions for the games depending on the runners. I mean Banjo-Tooie runs don't even do runs from a fresh file, they load up a pre-made save with optimal Jinjo patterns because it has been standardized by the community. FE7 speedruns were pretty much pioneered by Molotov and no one has objected to excluding LM. I don't mind that LM is included since it technically is the start of the game (Pro. - 10) despite being skippable on a second playthrough.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Gwimpage

[feplus]

I know that category definitions are arbitrary and community-defined, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the way things currently are. We're skipping cutscenes unskippable on a fresh file, so clearly we aren't doing fresh file runs; why then indulge in LM when LM is only required on a fresh file?

I'm of the mind that you either go full fresh file, including LM tutorials and unskippable cutscenes, or you go full unfresh file, including skipping LM and skipping cutscenes.

And LM + EM / HM could be its own category of course, should have mentioned that.

Edited February 19, 2015 by feplus

[Florete]

Well, what's the definition of "fresh file" first off? In this case, that could be one of two things:

-As though you just opened the box and started playing for the first time.

-An empty file, but on a cart that has cleared the game at least once before.

[dondon151]

or you can go super-unfresh file, which is just loading an epilogue save and clocking 0:00 as your in-game time. world record hype!

[feplus]

Well, what's the definition of "fresh file" first off? In this case, that could be one of two things:

-As though you just opened the box and started playing for the first time.

-An empty file, but on a cart that has cleared the game at least once before.

The first definition. If we go by the second definition, that would mean skipping LM is an option, since an "empty file, but on a cart that has cleared the game at least once before" would have EM / HM unlocked.

[Florete]

The first definition. If we go by the second definition, that would mean skipping LM is an option, since an "empty file, but on a cart that has cleared the game at least once before" would have EM / HM unlocked.

Yes, obviously. That's the point, and the reason why I brought up the question at all.

[Gwimpage]

I mean would you want to do runs with purposely having to skip the LM tutorials? (Edit I meant LNM runs. Those would be dreadful) The TAS does it from a complete fresh file and Lyn Mode becomes even more obnoxious with forced movements. Plus I'd probably fall asleep during the Ninian cutscene, I know I did when I replayed it on WiiU VC (Which might be faster than cartridge for loading times!). lol

Personally I'd avoid making new categories since it causes division among bigger communities and makes it worse for games with like 2-3 runners. For Radiant Dawn runs we use a file that has been completed already because it's faster and less painful to sit through. For including Lyn Mode it's for convenience and completion sake. FE6 and FE12 are played out to the true endings despite it being longer too.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Gwimpage

[feplus]

I mean would you want to do runs with purposely having to skip the LM tutorials? The TAS does it from a complete fresh file and Lyn Mode becomes even more obnoxious with forced movements. Plus I'd probably fall asleep during the Ninian cutscene, I know I did when I replayed it on WiiU VC (Which might be faster than cartridge for loading times!). lol

Personally I'd avoid making new categories since it causes division among bigger communities and makes it worse for games with like 2-3 runners. For Radiant Dawn runs we use a file that has been completed already because it's faster and less painful to sit through. For including Lyn Mode it's for convenience and completion sake. FE6 and FE12 are played out to the true endings despite it being longer too.

Oh yeah, I'd be much more inclined to do No-Lyn runs (I'd be more inclined to watch them, too). I think being able to skip cutscenes and skip tutorials is great for both runner and viewer, but I'm curious why we stop there and don't enjoy the other obvious benefit of starting from an unfresh file.

But this is all arbitrary. As you say, keeping category definitions consistent helps avoid smaller communities from splintering. How many people speedrun FE7 actively by the way, do you know?

And that's neat to hear about FE6 and 12. I'd assume those runs would be "true ending" runs as opposed to any%.

Edited February 19, 2015 by feplus

[Vorena]

In my opinion, lyn mode should be apart of an any% category for several reasons. The biggest one being is that it is part of the whole plot line of the game. You foreshadow meeting Ursula in 7x. You meet Eliwood and the Black Fang with Ninian and Nils. The whole set-up of plot elements in Hector or Eliwood Mode for the Caelin arc is made through Lyn Mode. There is no getting around that fact that Lyn Mode is part of the game and constitutes the start of the game. Hell, LTC runs that try to S rank include Lyn Mode from what I recall. Anyone confirm or deny?

In regards to fresh file starts there is no reason to start the game on LNM. LNM/LHM offer very little differences in terms of what you can or cannot do in future. You waste two turns on chapter 2. Forced dialogue on prologue and chapter 1. The whole chapter 4 strategy I believe can be done on LNM, but it requires a movement options which are slower than on LHM. There is no extreme benefit that LNM offers that gives it an advantage over LHM other than overall being slower. To this I feel using a completely new game is a dumb idea and should not be done. There is not even any reason to consider using LNM as a separate category as there is no major differences that effect Hector/Eliwood mode later on.

I can see using no Lyn mode as a separate category as you avoid making hector/eliwood modes easier to deal with at first. It really does make the game a difference place when you cannot use certain things like a promoted sain/kent or a unit with extra +2 strength and 7 health. With Lyn mode not being entertaining I believe that is how you go about doing it. The very fact that you are doing chapter 4 by not attacking anyone to me is already worth watching. I never knew about that idea until molotov's run.

Either way, I see any mode wanting to use Lyn mode using hard only and not distinguishing between categories. Hell, most speedrun communities do not even differ between game versions. In an OoT race they had English versus Chinese I think on N64 consoles. In this regard, I see normal mode as a being a version which is simply slower to use. The borderlands 2 co-op run did an incentive to do French or German language I believe.

Speaking of versions I think it is useful to consider the same distinction on FE7. JPN localization has a couple of potentially useful changes and negative ones which might make it the faster version to use.

In any case, if something like this ever took off more than it currently is at the moment all I can say is that I expect things to go the way of Halo runs. Easy and Legendary distinctions along with individual level runs. Same thing here with FE7 in that you can do Lyn or no Lyn. Hector or Eliwood. Hard or not hard. For me personally, I am feeling like doing a completely different thing. I do not merely want to rehash someone else's run. Its not very interesting.

Though these have all been really interesting considerations for me in deciding what I want to invest my time with.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Vorena

[Florete]

If plot mattered for speedrun purposes, Ocarina of Time any% wouldn't be allowed to skip from the Deku tree to Ganon's castle.

What would matter is whether or not Lyn mode is considered the beginning of the game or not. If it's considered the technical beginning of the game, then I could see why skipping it would be problematic, but if it were to only be considered as the tutorial with Eliwood/Hector mode being the "true" start to the game, any% runs should start there...and I guess that ultimately could boil down to story, despite how I opened this post, but I'd rather leave that decision up to the people who actually run the game.

[Irysa]

Just create multiple categories? Like, HHM Any % and LHM+HHM Any %

The only problem this causes is people bickering about what the definintive version is but lets be honest, all games have that problem.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Irysa