Builds for +Magic/-Strength Male Avatar x Cordelia (w/ and w/o DLC)…

[astrophys]

So I was thinking on this topic and out of curiosity was wondering what people's thoughts would be as to the best way to build these characters, assuming the constraints specified above as givens and both in the cases of with and without DLC.

I have run these characters together, a lot, but I know its easy to fall into schema, patterns, or assumptions about how one should approach things. So I thought it would be interesting to hear the views from others in case they had any innovative suggestions.

This topic is not concerned with the children resultant from them, but rather only on Robin/the Avatar and Cordelia themselves.

One of my immediately inclinations is Grandmaster Avatar x Dark Flier Cordelia or Sage Avatar x Dark Flier Cordelia and I'm currently running the latter. The former gets +6 magic on dual strike for the Avatar over Grandmaster as well as +2 magic on attack for Cordelia (and gives Avatar 50 magic before skills and Cordelia 41+9=50 magic from her own stats + pair-up). The latter

Cordelia also can pull off Sorcerer, which from experience works very well in the DLC, although its key trump cards (Nosferatu/Aversa's Night) lose relative effectiveness in Apotheosis. She technically also has Dark Knight access.

Cordelia has physical classes, but they don't really benefit from the magical classes that the +Magic Avatar wants to be in…. except perhaps if he runs Grandmaster, a its pair-up bonuses can benefit any type of unit's offenses, skill, and speed. There is also the point that the flight and mobility that the Pegasus classes give Cordelia is a major advantage that classes like her Hero lacks.

For the Avatar, its pretty clear that (assuming a tome using class) they should use Tomefaire to boost the damage. Ignis is of questionable usage, as he'll likely be behind Cordelia in the pair-up the vast majority of the time. As he's going to likely be in the rear, auras, like Anathema/Solidarity are things to consider (to improve accuracy or protect Cordelia further against critical hits), as are things like direct accuracy skills (like Hit+20, etc.). If DLC is involved, Aggressor and Limit Breaker are also givens.

I like using Armsthrift on the two of them as a convenience, but its not exactly sustainable without Limit Breakers or applications of Rally Luck each turn. After all, Robin is in the rear and thus stays at 45 luck (with DLC All Stats +2 + Tonic he gets to 49 at best). Cordelia has 44 luck, which mean Robin will bring her up to 47… which is still short by 1 even if we tonic her luck up to 49. DLC All Stats+2 can solve the problem, of course, but that still requires the luck tonic each battle. Outside of DLC, Rally Luck can get them over 50 luck each turn, but it requires Cordelia and Robin to return to the range of the rallier each turn, which is workable but imposes further tactical limitations. And granted, there are classes like Swordmaster or War Cleric that give +luck, but if Robin used that he'd be sacrificing tomes; not a good idea.

Cordelia almost certainly wants to use Vengeance for damage dealing purposes, and she gets 43+7 luck with a Sage or Grandmaster pair-up. Galeforce is also a given for her, as well as Limit Breaker if DLC is involved. The best use of her remaining two slots is a bit more up for debate.

And I could go on for longer, but I've already written a lot…. what are people's thoughts on the best way to build this specific couple?

[Knusperkeks]

The only guys who ever have listed crit against my units in apo are the great knights with crit skills in wave two (three groups in south-western corner of the map, NS is the boss unit, wave 2). I don't consider solidarity to be worth it for only the 10 dodge.

I never used the pairing in post game, but I'd imagine there are many working iterations of it.

Hero/Falcon Knight/Bow Knight

Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Galeforce, Limit Breaker

Hex, Anathema, Vengeance, Galeforce, Lancefaire or Speed+2

Cordelia has crap magic. Her mod is -1 there. Her magic growth is bad. I never went to the trouble of making her a Sorcerer for anything other than skills. Same for Dark Flier. Thankfully Dark Mage skills are so broken that she is still on comparable power level to some of the weaker children. It allows Avatar to fully focus on brute force, disregarding hit.

Berserker Avatar:

Strength+2

Axefaire

Hit+20

Solidarity?

...

That's as far as I get..

Avatar as physical support loves to get Hex and Anathema himself as a Berserker.

Maybe Sniper Avatar is good.

They both love to provide the Dark Mage auras by themselves, so I'm having trouble finding good sets for the two of them in tandem.

[astrophys]

Yes, her magic growth is bad, and she does have that -1 modifier. We agree on that.

That said, I have done the grinding on both characters already, so such stats are already essentially maxed out

And actually, with a Sage support, Cordelia's effective magic (of her own magic + the pair-up bonus) as a Dark Flier is 50; 52 as a Sorcerer. This is actually comparable to what Sumia can accomplish in the popular Sumia x Chrom pairing assuming that Chrom isn't using DLC classes (i.e. he's not a Dread Fighter) and Sumia is using Tomefaire:

Dark Flier Cordelia (41 magic) + Sage pair-up (9 magic) = 50 magic

Dark Flier Sumia (42 magic) + Tomefaire (5 magic) + Generic pair-up Bonus (3 magic) = 50 magic

They both gain weapon rank bonuses equally and can use the same tomes, so outside of the DLC such setups are essentially equal in attack before procs. Sumia has Luna, of course, while Cordleia uses Vengeance.

But, back to the suggestions. Yes, a physical Avatar probably has the better pair-up bonuses to sustain Cordelia in her physical classes…. although since I was doing a bit of roleplaying when I chose a +Mag/-Str Avatar [what I tend to imagine myself as if I was to be a character in a fantasy world] married to Cordelia [my favorite woman in the game], there was a degree of willfully ignoring that point.

What I suppose I'm looking for is how to optimize within the constraints that I have, even though it will not be what is globally optimal.

Another point about the Falcon Knight is that even though Cordelia has a positive strength modifier, it only has a base 38 strength, so even after Lancefaire (and eating a slot) that's only 44 strength; although Berserker can bring that to 54 granted. But its also at the cost of being able to use a 1-2 range Brave (i.e. Celica's Gale), which I find one of the key appeals of going Dark Flier in the first place with her.

And while Berserker could bring her up to 54 from strength +faire + pair-up, it would come at the cost of lowering the output of her dual strike partner… as I have +Mag/-Str, my Avatar has 50+5 magic as a Sage but would only have 47+5 strength as a Berserker; I lose 3 points of damage per hit on the Avatar to boost Cordelia's damage by 4; but Brave effects also need to be considered here [Avatar strikes twice for each of Cordelia's when dual-striking, so the lost of his attack hurts twice as much], as well as the might different between Axes and Celica's Gale, as well as their accuracy and the defense/resistance of enemies.

Edited April 17, 2015 by astrophys

[Vascela]

You're right that Sorcerer's trump card of Nosferatu doesn't really apply to Apo mechanics very well. But it's also known that Sorcerer isn't that much weaker than Sage (2 points of Mag). Skl doesn't mean much since 50 Skl is a nice benchmark for any Vengeance user. And Spd doesn't mean much for a Vengeance user either.

And K's right when saying that just because you have +Mag/-Str doesn't mean you can't use phys locked classes--stats points that low (in terms of mods) don't really define your character 100% of the time. Your class potential is what defines what you can or cannot be. A nice thing about Sorc is that you can run waste and +hit forges and +hit skills instead of running Celica's with +Attack skills. Yes, there are some fliers on the map, but who says you can't use Celica's on them? Sorc's do have a high damage output.

Avatar/ Sage

Tomefaire, Vengeance, Vantage, Hit Rate +20, Armsthrift

Replace Vantage/Vengeance with Luna/Ignis since you don't really care too much about consistency

Cordelia/ Sorc

Hex, Anathema, Armsthrift, Vengeance, Galeforce

You can also remove the procs from one or the other if you wanted a dedicated lead/support. Just remember Cordelia doesn't need Galeforce if she's hard supporting.

You can toss in LB/Agg/Whatever wherever for the most part.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I really like them together for Lunatic Risen mode (no DLC/Logbook, fight all the Risen). +Mag/-Str aside, I'm using Avatar@Wyvern Lord (Aegis/Renewal/Pass/Axebreaker/Armsthrift) x Cordelia@Falco (Galeforce/Lifetaker/Vengeance/Spd+2/Armsthrift).

Avatar's skillset is kind of variable and I change it each map depending on what I'm fighting, but Renewal and Armsthrift pretty much always stay- I want 1-2 in-battle defensive skills (Aegis/*Breaker). Pass is sometimes swapped with Lethality for high Def targets.

Cordelia uses Galeforce to make her method of healing safe, and for a tool against enemies with overlapping end ranges when I'm trying to kite. Lifetaker and Armsthrift are necessary for healing/money. Vengeance is mostly just a utility because she'll often have some damage on and has 50 Skl anyway up front (I generally find it more powerful than Lancefaire, as I don't care about her Atk in the back). Spd+2 allows her to double enemy Swordmasters without a tonic.

Stat-wise the pair compliment eachother well, with Cordelia pushing Avatar to 47 Spd with a neutral Spd mod (there are a lot of 42 Spd enemies) and patching up his Res, and Avatar in return fixing her durability and keeping her offense high for GF.

Not running Sol on either is a semi-conscious choice both because I feel it makes the challenge more fun, because I don't trust its activation rate and because it sometimes doesn't even do much against enemies with high Str/Def, putting me in a pickle.

Obviously this isn't a set meant for Apo but I've had a lot of fun playing around with it.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[astrophys]

To be honest, before K's post, I never had even given using classes like the Berserker on my Avatar a try because of how much my mods clashed with its stat foci.

But now that he mentions it, I wonder how the damage calculations would turn out (when also bringing in secondary factors like accuracy, etc.).

My aesthetic senses still prefer a magically oriented Avatar class wise, but I'd be interested in seeing the calculations or doing them myself to see what is legitimately better under that asset/flaw combination, for future reference and my own knowledge of course. Who knows? Could something as odd as a -STR Berserker still outperform a +MAG sage when everything is considered?

[Vascela]

Could something as odd as a -STR Berserker still outperform a +MAG sage when everything is considered?

Depending on the conditions, yes. For example, if you run a physical oriented Cordelia, I'm sure she would prefer a physical partner rather than a mixed partner (although there are enemies where having a mixed partner is better too, of course).

[Knusperkeks]

Indeed. DLC skills make it much easier to skyrocket one's units' performance. Just put Limit Breaker, All+2 and Aggressor on anything that moves and watch them go~!

Depending on the conditions, yes. For example, if you run a physical oriented Cordelia, I'm sure she would prefer a physical partner rather than a mixed partner (although there are enemies where having a mixed partner is better too, of course).

To add to that, conditions includes the weapon triangle. Hero's can use Axes and Swords. Zerker Avatar uses Axes.

Cordelia can use her Axe against enemy Lances. The lances will fall to the double Axe combo of Avatar and Cordelia.

Cordelia can use her Sword against enemy Axe users. Avatar doesn't care. Again we gain WTA. Doesn't look like much, but the weapon triangle is a big deal, as it reduces the damage and accuracy of the enemy.

Gaining WTA is similar to gaining a free S rank support (sans dual strike/dual guard percentage increase). Notice how the enemy's weapon rank bonus is being suppressed as well.

Applying that to your personal avatar, maybe a war priest with bolt axe would be okay for a magic based Cordelia? I don't think it'll be awesome or anything, but it might be interesting.

[astrophys]

Well, it wouldn't have nearly the same attack potential as a Sage or a Berserker (particularly if we consider that its not a brave), but war monk does give +7 Str/+7 Magic/+7 Luck/+Res; basically, it sacrifices the speed and skill from the Grandmaster but guarantees a perfect Armsthirft on Cordelia as long as she remains the lead of the pair-up, in in a DLC-less build. Of course, if Limit Breaker is considered then that Luck isn't needed as the LB already takes care of that.

[Knusperkeks]

I'm trying to work off your Cordelia and +mag/-str avatar here. They'll easily annihilate all enemies if I give them both Limit Breaker, Rallies and All+2. It's pure brute force, it will work.

The question is, do you think it's fun? Personally, after the tenth run with my apo challenge team I'm starting to get sick of brave weapons.

[astrophys]

Well, I can understand the sentiment of getting sick of Brave Weapons, particularly after playing through The Sacred Stones where they were so limited that you basically got one of each of them.

A lot more weaponry becomes "viable", like the regular legendaries, silvers, etc. once Braves are ignored.