2017 NFL Playoffs - Super Bowl LI Confirmed! Atlanta Falcons vs New England Patriots!

[TheAssassinMercenary]

there's legitimately no proof that he is guilty, the wells report said some bullshit like "we conclude that there is a chance that he probably did something with that"do you really think that should be enough to suspend a dude for four gamesthere is nothing in that post that resembles a coherent point

According to the report, it is "More probable than not that Tom Brady had at least general knowledge of the deflated footballs." I really don't know what to believe anymore.

[Anacybele]

Uh, I never said that there was proof that Brady was guilty either. But someone shouldn't get a free pass just because of that if there's reason to believe he may be guilty. Brady destroyed his cell phone when the incident happened, meaning he might have had evidence on it. A person can claim that they're innocent, but people can also lie. And given the Patriots' questionable history, well, I see no reason not to hand down some punishment.

And of course I'm aware that the Patriots aren't the only team that's cheated. Back during the Spygate thing, I heard that other teams were actually doing that spying stuff as well. Even the Steelers and Bill Cowher. I also heard something about flying drones recently, for a few teams. Just...what. xP

So, anyway... With Suisham down and out, I do really wonder what Tomlin is going to do about the kicker position. I'm thinking he'll have Brad Wing fill in and do both the punting and the FG kicking, but who knows. Maybe it'll depend on how well Wing can actually kick a FG.

[Lord Raven]

Uh, I never said that there was proof that Brady was guilty either. But someone shouldn't get a free pass just because of that if there's reason to believe he may be guilty. Brady destroyed his cell phone when the incident happened, meaning he might have had evidence on it. A person can claim that they're innocent, but people can also lie.

no the only person who reported he destroyed his cell phone was stephen a smith who literally made shit up

if stephen a smith is an example of reliable sports journalism then i quit sports. according to brady's spoken word - which is infinitely more reliable than stephen a smithwho is a crackpot that partners with skip bayless because the two of them exist only to rile up sports fans - he was switching cell phones and he offered up his cell phone as evidence later on. In fact, he offered the names of his contacts on said cellphone so they could check their text history. He definitively offered the information that the NFL wanted to the NFL and they did not utilize it

"shouldn't get a free pass just because we don't know if he's guilty?" - what the fuck? He shouldn't be getting punished unless he's proven guilty. He's not been proven guilty. "Shady shit" is not punishable. You must think that someone being accused of something should automatically result in punishment.

the NFL hasn't proven jack shit about his guilt, therefore he must be assumed innocent. They just said "it's likely that he probably did something related to it" or whatever the fuck kind of bullshit wording it was, which is not nearly enough evidence to get someone convicted in any sort of non-barbaric legal system

Most NFL Players don't take their cases to court unless they legitimately think they've been wronged. You think Daryl Washington was going to appeal his case after another domestic violence dispute? (This was pre-Ray Rice btw). Fuck no! Brady has gone through multiple appeals, whereas Belichick didn't have nearly this much for bullshitgate because it was pretty obvious he breached the rules.

And given the Patriots' questionable history, well, I see no reason not to hand down some punishment.

Fuck, every fucking team cheats. Every team cheats. Every. Team. Cheats. You know why nobody gives a fuck about the Falcons pumping crowd noise into the stadium while the away team was on offense? Because the Falcons went 6-10 and missed the fucking playoffs. But a ball going 2 psi below requires a fucking scandal name.

And of course I'm aware that the Patriots aren't the only team that's cheated. Back during the Spygate thing, I heard that other teams were actually doing that spying stuff as well. Even the Steelers and Bill Cowher.

Yeah, they were recording defensive signals. This was never illegal and this is still not illegal. In 2007 a referendum was sent to tell teams to stop doing it from a certain camera angle, but it allowed them to keep recording defensive signals regardless; Belichick got caught at that single camera angle for one extra game but they still got those stupid fines and the lost draft pick.

There are many reasons why it's superfluous to record these signals anyway, because it frankly varies week to week and sometimes half to half. Bill Cowher said it also provided little competitive advantage and literally everyone used to do it. You know why? Because it was legal.

I also heard something about flying drones recently, for a few teams. Just...what. xP

No, this is either a conspiracy or just something that's somehow within the rules.

I know I have explained this to you many times. Why don't you understand this still?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

Give me proof that every team cheats all the time. Give me some. Also, I said "no free pass because we don't know if he's innocent." There's no proof that he is or isn't.

And the Falcons were fined for that fake crowd noise. So SOMEBODY cared.

Also, you're making way too big a deal out of this.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

Give me proof that every team cheats all the time. Give me some.

http://yourteamcheats.com/

Also, I said "no free pass because we don't know if he's innocent." There's no proof that he is or isn't.

But the burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused. That is how any non-barbaric legal system or punishment system works. Otherwise you'd see people getting punished for crimes that they absolutely did not commit because "it's on them to prove they're innocent," which is inherently wrong.

And the Falcons were fined for that fake crowd noise. So SOMEBODY cared.

Yeah with like a 5th round draft pick and a small fine right? Not like losing a first rounder (or two) and another couple of draft picks, major fines, and suspension of your star quarterback to cap it all off. The difference? Patriots won a Super Bowl, Falcons were pathetic.

Also, you're making way too big a deal out of this.

Yes, I tend to make a big deal about when I've explained something to someone more than a few times and she doesn't seem to understand it. I also make a big deal out of unjust punishment, and furthermore I hate the spread of misinformation, which all applies to this thread. You are actively encouraging the spread of misinformation by making the points that you do and by refusing to listen to people in this thread like 60% of the time.

[Anacybele]

http://yourteamcheats.com/

But the burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused. That is how any non-barbaric legal system or punishment system works. Otherwise you'd see people getting punished for crimes that they absolutely did not commit because "it's on them to prove they're innocent," which is inherently wrong.

Yeah with like a 5th round draft pick and a small fine right? Not like losing a first rounder (or two) and another couple of draft picks, major fines, and suspension of your star quarterback to cap it all off. The difference? Patriots won a Super Bowl, Falcons were pathetic.

Yes, I tend to make a big deal about when I've explained something to someone more than a few times and she doesn't seem to understand it. I also make a big deal out of unjust punishment, and furthermore I hate the spread of misinformation, which all applies to this thread. You are actively encouraging the spread of misinformation by making the points that you do and by refusing to listen to people in this thread like 60% of the time.

You're going to believe a website that says Mike Tomlin's "stepping in the way" of Jacoby Jones was cheating when that very clearly was probably an accident and no proof that Tomlin intended to do that was found? lol okay.

Faking crowd noise isn't as big a deal as deflating footballs to affect the actual game's outcome. Crowd noise doesn't actually really affect the game, as the Falcons' record showed. The Steelers played them in Atlanta and still kicked their asses.

I don't remember you ever explaining any of this to me. This is the first I've seen of it. Also, even then, you don't need to act like it's the end of the world.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

You're going to believe a website that says Mike Tomlin's "stepping in the way" of Jacoby Jones was cheating when that very clearly was an accident? lol okay.

yes that is still affecting the game, cheating can be unintentional

Faking crowd noise isn't as big a deal as deflating footballs to affect the actual game's outcome. Crowd noise doesn't actually really affect the game, as the Falcons' record showed. The Steelers played them in Atlanta and still kicked their asses.

Yes it does. The crowd noise affects the game significantly, and if you want to see proof then look at how teams prepare for road games compared to home games. Look at at how much the audibles change around. Crowd noise is a significant factor in things and it was what caused the bad snap at the beginning of Super Bowl 48.

You can google this shit quite easily and find many examples. It just so happens that the Falcons had an OL so bad that they started a terrible Tight End at Right Tackle due to all of their injuries, Matt Ryan isn't that amazing a quarterback, and their defense is fucking terrible. People beat Atlanta inside of the Georgia Dome because they were shit, not because crowd noise doesn't make a big difference.

I know people who played quarterback in college and high school that can tell you for sure that deflating footballs to 10 psi doesn't change a thing about grip. There are many people who complained about Kordell Stewart tampering with the Steelers' balls in the late 90s/early 00s but they didn't really care because, even though they felt weird, it didn't make a difference. You can ask just about any person who has thrown a football with 2 psi less pressure and they can tell you for sure that it doesn't feel any different - because it is barely any different.

I don't remember you ever explaining any of this to me. This is the first I've seen of it.

wrt spygate definitely

wrt ballghazi it was definitely mentioned more than a few times in this thread

Also, even then, you don't need to act like it's the end of the world.

I'm not. You shouldn't say shit like this so you can avoid taking responsibility for being misinformed. Edited August 10, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

yes that is still affecting the game, cheating can be unintentional

lolwut. Cheating is called cheating because it's purposefully doing something against the rules to alter things your favor. Otherwise, you can call all the flags handed out on the field cheating, which just makes no sense, since many of them are likely unintentional.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

Cheating

act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

When someone gets a flag in the game, they're punished for breaking a rule to even it out. It's more akin to a ref missing a call, except this is magnitudes worse than "oh they didn't catch them holding so no 10 yards for us" because it prevented a major scoring play.

Nothing in the definition of cheating refers to intention.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

You can't accidentally be dishonest though. Dishonesty is intentional.

Also, I highly doubt that the crowd being loud caused Peyton Manning's center to let the ball slip from his hands so terribly. Nobody forced him to do it. I don't blame any crowds for whenever Maurkice Pouncey makes a bad snap. I blame Pouncey.

[Lord Raven]

Unfairly is another word in there... EDIT: Fuck semantics, every team breaks rules anyway, whether or not it's intentional is another thing entirely and whether or not Tomlin's thing was intentional it was still breaking rules and it's gonna be put on that website.

Yes, it did, btw. While Manning was doing his audibles, the center snapped the thing way early. If Manning were alert then he'd definitely catch it - it's a high snap but it's still a manageable snap. Welker was on record saying that it louder than they were expecting, and Manny Ramirez definitely missed something due to miscommunications, but that's just one example in a mess of examples I've provided. It's also just one example in a large number of examples.

EDIT:

Holy fuck Ana, the irony is lost upon you.

You said that Brady needs to prove his innocence, but Tomlin hasn't proven his innocence beyond his own spoken word. People lie right? So now you are saying because nobody proved he did it intentionally that he's innocent? How do you know it wasn't intentional?

I get it now! Because you're a Steelers homer, so therefore you're right and we're wrong.

#logic

Pick a side.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Lord Raven

[TheAssassinMercenary]

The whole Deflategate thing is getting out of hand. Ted Wells is going off of several shady and unreliable sources in his report. Chances are, someone did deflate the footballs, but was it Brady? There's no way to know at this point.

[Lord Raven]

can we please stop saying -gate

pls use ballghazi

I bet Ted Wells deflated the balls himself

Edited August 11, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

EDIT:

Holy fuck Ana, the irony is lost upon you.

You said that Brady needs to prove his innocence, but Tomlin hasn't proven his innocence beyond his own spoken word. People lie right? So now you are saying because nobody proved he did it intentionally that he's innocent? How do you know it wasn't intentional?

I get it now! Because you're a Steelers homer, so therefore you're right and we're wrong.

#logic

Pick a side.

...What? looool, you're a riot, dude. Tomlin's act could've very easily been an accident. You can't accidentally deflate footballs. So Brady/the Patriots either did that on purpose or they didn't do it at all. And I never actually said in my post that Tomlin was most definitely innocent (even though I believe he is).

And I think that website is a load of crap. Some things in it are probably legitimate purposeful cheating, but still.

[Lord Raven]

...What? looool, you're a riot, dude. Tomlin's act could've very easily been an accident. You can't accidentally deflate footballs. So Brady/the Patriots either did that on purpose or they didn't do it at all. And I never actually said in my post that Tomlin was most definitely innocent (even though I believe he is).

No, he was not most definitely innocent. Where's the proof he was most definitely innocent? You didn't show any. Just because it CAN happen accidentally, doesn't mean it DID happen.

Footballs also deflate in the cold. That is a fact. It is also possible for referee negligence that got blame shifted onto Brady. Who the hell knows? Brady's been nothing but forthcoming and honest about the evidence, yet they demonize one of their all time greats.

You are saying because there is a chance he is innocent, he is definitively innocent. You are also saying that because people lie, Brady is not innocent. Pick a side. You are preaching "guilty until proven innocent" when in reality, Tomlin hasn't proven his innocence either, whereas Brady has actually been forthcoming and willing to show he is innocent.

Do you not see how you are contradicting yourself?

And I think that website is a load of crap. Some things in it are probably legitimate purposeful cheating, but still.

"It's a load of crap because I don't agree with ONE little thing in it! Also, people should prove Tomlin's guilty whereas Brady needs to prove he's innocent because I say so!"

[-Cynthia-]

.If the footballs were so obviously deflated, moreso than small differences caused by temperature or standard error, then it does beg the question of why the referees didn't say anything on the matter when they handle the ball after every play pretty much.

[Anacybele]

I didn't say he most definitely was innocent, I just said I THINK he is. The reason I think he is is because there's nothing in Tomlin's history to suggest that he would do such a thing on purpose. I've read up on him, he's a very nice guy. He helped an elderly lady across the street for god's sake.

Also...Jesus Christ, the drama never ends. Geno Smith is out for possibly more than half the season because he got clocked in the face and his jaw broken. Just...wow...

EDIT: Oh, and the Steelers signed a former Saints kicker, a guy named Garrett Hartley. From what's said about him, he doesn't seem bad, but not as good as Suisham was. Hopefully he'll suffice though.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

I didn't say he most definitely was innocent, I just said I THINK he is. The reason I think he is is because there's nothing in Tomlin's history to suggest that he would do such a thing on purpose. I've read up on him, he's a very nice guy. He helped an elderly lady across the street for god's sake.

But do you think he should prove his innocence or should others prove his guilt? That's the point here. You're saying "but I THINK he's innocent" without any real proof aside from past history - but we saw how past history may not always apply with Ray Rice.

The only reason you're suggesting that he is innocent now is because "he's a good guy!" But Brady donated 400k to his high school for renovations as a means of giving back, and he goes to Michigan like once a year to motivate freshman.

On top of Brady providing the NFL with more than enough resources to show that he is innocent, but the NFL doled out a punishment at him for whatever reason, shows that he is actually innocent and he has done more than prove his innocence. As it stands, though, you are always innocent until you are proven guilty, because it's better for the guilty to walk free than the innocent to be locked up.

tl;dr you're saying Tomlin doesn't need to prove innocence but Brady does, cause Tomlin is a good guy and you don't know anything about Tom Brady. If you were the commissioner or leader of any league or community, then I'd stay far, far away.

[Anacybele]

Tomlin no longer needs to prove his innocence, he was given his punishment and he paid the price for what he did. Quite literally since he was fined. His situation is over and done with. Brady's is ongoing. And I doubt that Brady's suspension was for "whatever reason," the media likes to fap to the Patriots these days because of how oh so great they are. You're right that a person is innocent until proven guilty, though. And maybe Brady was punished for not cooperating with the investigation properly, rather than the deflated footballs. He DID destroy his phone during it.

But can we drop this, please? Regardless of which one of us is right or wrong, it's kind of a silly debate.

[Lord Raven]

And I doubt that Brady's suspension was for "whatever reason," the media likes to fap to the Patriots these days because of how oh so great they are.

I mean it makes sense, because I was born in 92 and they've made 7 Super Bowls in my life time. One undefeated season. Three Super Bowl losses, four super bowl wins, one of which being to one of the greatest teams of all time (and a loss as arguably one of the greatest teams of all time).

You're right that a person is innocent until proven guilty, though.

Then why did you say Brady needs to prove he is innocent when his guilt wasn't proven?

And maybe Brady was punished for not cooperating with the investigation properly, rather than the deflated footballs. He DID destroy his phone during it.

Source needed. You know I contradicted this earlier right? This is why we say you don't listen.

http://deadspin.com/the-full-story-of-tom-bradys-destroyed-cell-phone-1722190784

Some interesting information that goes under the radar; this indicates that they did not deflate anything between the beginning of the season and early November. This also seems to give credence to the fact that they probably didn't deflate anything later either. They blew out a few teams by that point too, and the Colts game was like a week later so I doubt they deflated it in time for the Colts either

But can we drop this, please? Regardless of which one of us is right or wrong, it's kind of a silly debate.

Only if you stop saying really inane shit. People give you proof? "Oh it's bullshit cause I don't like it."

[Anacybele]

I mean it makes sense, because I was born in 92 and they've made 7 Super Bowls in my life time. One undefeated season. Three Super Bowl losses, four super bowl wins, one of which being to one of the greatest teams of all time (and a loss as arguably one of the greatest teams of all time).

Yes, exactly. So it would make NO sense for the NFL to punish Brady just because they feel like it.

Then why did you say Brady needs to prove he is innocent when his guilt wasn't proven?

Because like I said, there was possible evidence that he WAS guilty. Destroying his phone, like I said. But now you show me some article that I didn't know existed and didn't know to check. See, if I'm uninformed, I probably don't KNOW that I'm uninformed, so I don't KNOW that I needed to check anything. If I didn't actually know enough about the whole thing, I didn't know that I didn't know, okay?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

Yes, exactly. So it would make NO sense for the NFL to punish Brady just because they feel like it.

You're right, which is why this situation makes no sense.

Because like I said, there was possible evidence that he WAS guilty. Destroying his phone, like I said. But now you show me some article that I didn't know existed and didn't know to check. See, if I'm uninformed, I probably don't KNOW that I'm uninformed, so I don't KNOW that I needed to check anything. If I didn't actually know enough about the whole thing, I didn't know that I didn't know, okay?

I found it by basic google. "Did brady destroy his phone" "Brady destroyed phone." Verify your information if someone is calling you out on misinformation. It's not hard.

[Anacybele]

So, I read the other day that the Browns might get Ray Rice. That'd be interesting. :P

[ClevelandSteve]

So, I read the other day that the Browns might get Ray Rice. That'd be interesting. :P

First I'm hearing of this. He would give our team a much-needed boost to the Browns, who couldn't even beat Washington's team, but I personally really don't want a guy on my team who's done the things he's done. I can't in good conscious root for a domestic abuser.

[Anacybele]

I read that the Browns people are talking about it or considering it or something along those lines. It was on NFL.com somewhere.

On another note, I swear, some fans need to actually watch players other than the QB during games... Too much hate for Landry Jones over here, man. Sure, he's not amazing at all, but he's honestly been pretty okay. His numbers just got hindered by his receivers dropping several of his actually good passes. I do question why we haven't seen Tajh Boyd yet though. Why pick him up if you're not going to see what he can do...? I mean, Gradkowski is hurt, I get that, so he can't play right now, but why's this other guy being left high and dry?

That said though, Jesse James actually caught literally all the balls that were thrown to him last night, so I was glad to see that.

Also, even if it was just one drive, damn I loved seeing Big Ben being Big Ben, AB being AB, Bell being Bell, Bryant being Bryant, and Wheaton being Wheaton. These guys ROCK! :D

That one TE the Jags had though, oh my god he tore our guys apart. He just kept looking really strong and hard to bring down. ._.

Oh yeah, the Raiders are actually starting to scare me a bit. That rookie receiver of theirs apparently did really well. Amari Cooper, I'm referring to.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Anacybele