Steampunk Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Steam has recently offered paid mods for Skyrim in the Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent/%C2%A0. As one may expect, this has caused a serious shit storm. Personally, I don't see a problem with modders getting paid, though the payment is a bit slanted: 25% for modders, 75% for Valve and Bethesda, and payment is withheld until the modder makes $100. If this is a long-term change, I sincerely hope this changes to benefit the modder (who actually did the work) more than the two companies (who had minimal involvement in making the mod itself) At any rate, my biggest concern with this is that Steam may implement DRM protections on Workshop mods and participating developers will start engineering their games to only run Steam mods. This will make community modding much harder and more sketchy as people will have to find non-Steam versions of the games (assuming one is released) or crack their Steam games to use non-Steam mods. I also worry about how the money will trickle down to each modder involved in collaborative projects. will SKSE devs get anything for paid mods that require script extender functionality? How will Steam ensure that all participants in a group project will get compensated as opposed to the single uploader? Will modders continue to work together or will they hoard their ideas to maximize their own gain? There are a lot of tough questions that I don't believe Steam asked when implementing this idea that the modding community will be left to figure out for itself. What are your thoughts? Will this destroy modding? Wil this make it better? Will this even last long enough to have any long term effects in PC modding or will the overwhelming negative backlash kill this before it really takes off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarfishh Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Happy to see content creators being payed for their work, but the mod creators aren't getting enough of a cut, especially with payment being withheld until $100 is owed to them, meaning the mod needs to make $400 before they get a penny. Assuming that Valve and Bethesda both get an equal cut of the 75% (Which is rather unlikely), then Valve are also making an awful lot of money, considering they have no hand in the creation of the product, and are purely a distribution platform for the mods. I'm also quite worried that some mods will now try much harder to sell themselves, advertising tiny graphical tweaks as complete overhauls and the like, to make some cash. Also worried that some mods will be rushed out, or patches/updates will be ignored so the creator can make a new half-baked money maker. I do think that the larger mods (eg Falskaar/BTHKOS) will benefit from this, as they will have reason to put more effort in, beyond as a labour of love. However, I'm sure well see plenty of 'extra apple in bannered mare' mods cropping up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishi Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm highly against an initial charge this is no doubt going to cause some people to overcharge mods. I think donations would work much better because i like to try mods but if a mods crap and it costed me 2$ or something I'm gonna be mad for my waste of time and money. I feel that modding may crash soon I'm just glad Skywind has decided not to charge for the mod especially since its not even done yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) Happy to see content creators being payed for their work, but the mod creators aren't getting enough of a cut, especially with payment being withheld until $100 is owed to them, meaning the mod needs to make $400 before they get a penny. Assuming that Valve and Bethesda both get an equal cut of the 75% (Which is rather unlikely), then Valve are also making an awful lot of money, considering they have no hand in the creation of the product, and are purely a distribution platform for the mods. It definitely seems like they'll be the only ones making any real money off of this, in most cases. I'm all for supporting modders, but 25% is a pretty shit deal considering how time consuming it is to make anything that would actually be worth buying. And that's assuming it would actually sell at whatever 'reasonable' price the community would be willing to pay. I'm dreading the day that stuff like unofficial patches and fixes get put behind a pay wall like that, especially considering how buggy big-budget games have been lately. Edited April 25, 2015 by algae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarfishh Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I'm dreading the day that stuff like unofficial patches and fixes get put behind a pay wall like that, especially considering how buggy big-budget games have been lately. Yeah, I'm not exactly thrilled with the prospect of paying for a patch, especially a fan made one... I mean, we shouldn't have to pay extra because the product doesn't work as promised... However, if that happens with a big game, the community backlash will be pretty horrific, so I can't see it staying up for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical CC Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) I dont mind modders being paid for what they did. But I dont like the fact that they only get 25% out of the deal, it's a shitty amount. And it's kinda stupid. If it's free then I have no right to complain about the mod's quality but now that I paid for it, who will guarantee the quality of the mod? If the mods dont have the contents the modders promised then can I have my money back? How will the patches for the mods work? For short, I have to use real cash for some dubious things that may or may not be good. This whole deal is ridiculous the more you think about it. You know it's wrong when you have to pay for a mod of a game. How is it different from DLC when they are both small, additional stuffs that cost money with no guarantee quality? It's just that now that you make a mod for my game so I will get money from your mod too.....It's.....ridiculous! Unacceptable! It's pure greedy, Nintendo's level of greedy! But honestly, some mods have already been paid-only...so I guess it's fine.......the hell is wrong with this world...I dont even know anymore... However, if that happens with a big game, the community backlash will be pretty horrific, so I can't see it staying up for long. It will stay...mark my works. I have seen enough to know that it will stay. It's pretty simple to force everyone to make a deal with Steam Workshop. Here is the simple way: _Take down every non-original mods include: warhammer, lotr, mass effect, game of throne, starwar, halo, elderscroll...unless they are the part of Steam Workshop. That's pretty much over 2/3 amount of mods on the world. The 3rd Age is the famous lotr mod for Medieval 2? Take it down! Sue the modders! Or the modders can join our Steam Workshop so that we can get a lick. So, you guys are making an Elderscroll Total War mod? Too bad, we, the Bethesda Softworks will have you to stop making it....or you can keep making it, let it be a part of Steam Workshop and get some bucks in return. This is sad since they have to right to enforce their copy rights. Edited April 26, 2015 by Magical Amber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 "I'm fine with modders being rewarded for their own work" You guys act as if they were never rewarded in the first place. Community cred for a good mod isn't a reward? "I have no right to complain about what I got for free" Yes you do. What you don't have right to is to lambast the provider. Constructive criticism is appreciated by everyone. If it fucks up your game or erases your save, you have every right to complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical CC Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) "I'm fine with modders being rewarded for their own work" You guys act as if they were never rewarded in the first place. Community cred for a good mod isn't a reward? "I have no right to complain about what I got for free" Yes you do. What you don't have right to is to lambast the provider. Constructive criticism is appreciated by everyone. If it fucks up your game or erases your save, you have every right to complain. I love it when I buy foods and upgrade my pc using my community creds. If modding is as simple as clicking the mouse several times then everyone can be a modder and no one has to give a damn about the Steam Workshop. Also, you used a third party data and you also modified your game files without consulting the producer, what do you expect? The reason why many mods dont bother with "use it at your own risk" is because everyone expect you to know that you are talking risk by using mod. And I have to say, if a mod affects your original vanilla un-modded save game, it usually means the game is not mod friendly and by applying the mod, you changed your vanilla files and thus, save corrupting or glitches are to be expected. Game like Mount&Blade or Total War are mod-friendly and usually the mods do not directly interact with your vanilla files. Having to uninstall then re-install the game just because the mods do not work is a daily routine for mod-users. That is why mods should be free.... Edited April 26, 2015 by Magical Amber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) "I'm fine with modders being rewarded for their own work" You guys act as if they were never rewarded in the first place. Community cred for a good mod isn't a reward? For the amount of time it takes to make a good mod? I'm sure some money would be nice, especially since that's how it works in every other art form. The good feeling is nice but it's not going to make your bills go away, especially since a good mod is going to take a considerable amount of time. Speaking from experience, even something as simple as a TES dungeon with the construction kit could take dozens of hours for the equivalent of a rough draft. Falskaar apparently took a few thousand hours or so. I guess my thing is that I'd like to see modders have the option to get money for their work if they so choose, but this system doesn't look like it'll benefit anyone except Valve and Bethesda. Edited April 26, 2015 by algae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarfishh Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 ""I have no right to complain about what I got for free" Yes you do. What you don't have right to is to lambast the provider. Constructive criticism is appreciated by everyone. If it fucks up your game or erases your save, you have every right to complain. true, but before you paid, the modder didn't owe you anything, beyond something which doesn't break your game/erase save data etc. Once you've paid for it, they actively owe you, and I think that's where the concerns lie, in that modders may not complete mods (as often happens) after you've invested in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical CC Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) Mark my words, in the near future, you will have to pay every damn time you open the game, level up your character, create a map or fight a boss. It will come to that if this trend continue. Money talks and it will just get louder and louder. Edited April 26, 2015 by Magical Amber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interest Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) This best sums up the entire event: Seriously though, I don't mind the idea of modders making money. What I do mind is Bethesda and Valve taking a giant cut when one can easily just chuck up a donate button on the Nexus or something (Gabe's "pay what you want" answer doesn't solve the aforementioned issue). Bethesda in particular taking a cut of the money made off of paid mods means Bethesda could literally make money by making their entire next game the following picture and only the following picture: [spoiler=Warning: Major spoilers] I'm hoping this doesn't affect the modding scene...and by that I'm hoping most of the modders stay on the Nexus and anything that pops up on Steam Workshop (for money) just dies. Good mods on the Workshop should also be moved to the Nexus if they aren't already there yet. Edited April 27, 2015 by Interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxmonste Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) I don't approve in the slightest, they should simply kill this new system and bring Steam Workshop back to what it used to be. I don't play Skyrim as much as I used to back in the day. But I won't return to it, knowing that this new system is introduced. If anything, they should just add donations and nothing else. Edited April 27, 2015 by Rxmonste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I'm dreading the day that stuff like unofficial patches and fixes get put behind a pay wall like that, especially considering how buggy big-budget games have been lately. This is my real concern, that and the modders getting shafted with a shit percentage of the cut. (srsly thats not cool) If anything, its just gonna make me keep buying indie exclusively. However, i am supportive of modders who work their arses off to make a game better or more fun, getting paid for it. Mark my words, in the near future, you will have to pay every damn time you open the game, level up your character, create a map or fight a boss. It will come to that if this trend continue. Money talks and it will just get louder and louder. No. Stop that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Looks like it's gone now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steampunk Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 I'm sure they'll try to bring it back in the future. I hope this pissed off enough people that they start supporting alternatives like GOG. I don't think any company should own a market, and Steam really is the only sheriff in town when it comes to PC gaming. Hopefully some healthy competition springs up from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 (edited) Valve did this because it's a step in their goal to monopolize the PC gaming market, just like the products they've announced earlier this year. If they succeed, soon they'll have the standard OS, the standard controller, the standard store, the standard PCs which run the games, and now the standard trading place for mods. This is the consolization of PC gaming. Valve is thinking about the long run. If they manage to drive EA and Ubisoft away or, instead, find a better way to integrate their DRM software into Steam, it'll be Valve's great win in the gaming front. If Valve's SteamOS becomes the de facto OS for gaming purposes instead of Windows, it'll be another great win. The Steam Controller being superior to the Xbox One controller for PC gaming will be another win for Valve over Microsoft. Imagine if they go even further and integrate streaming TV services into Steam, which is already a multimedia platform. Xbox One and PS4 can do it, so Valve will want to be able to do it, too. If Valve has their way, in the future we'll all be gaming on Steam Machines/Steam Links and using Steam Controllers to play. Their moves, if successful, will change PC gaming forever. The advantage of customization will be lost in favor of a standard by which most will abide. Valve wants to be to PC gamers what Microsoft was to home computers. The sad truth is that donation helps only the modder. Valve and Bethesda aren't interested in the modder's well-being, they want money and control. The system they put in place is abhorrent, but it makes sense, because Valve provides the means to advertise and publishes the mod, and Bethesda is the maker of the game and owns all rights to it. In the past, to create a paid expansion to a game you needed to license the rights from whoever held them. Some people had participation in unlicensed map packs which cost money, but copyright laws were more relaxed. First of all, in many places you need to pay to place an ad. Moreover, the publisher takes into account the risk involved in promoting a third-party's work, especially in the case of amateur and/or first-time authors. If you try to publish a book, you won't get a favorable contract the first time around; quite the contrary. The publisher takes the largest cut, because of the risks. They spend money on printing and advertising, and they have their reputable name on the line whenever they agree to publish a first-time author. As for mod prices, the market is still walking its baby steps. It's generally agreed, however, that few people are going to want to pay for a mod as much as they pay for DLC. The DLC has the "official" label that even the best mods lack. So, at least for now, making mods for games won't put food on anyone's plate. To sum it up, my opinion is that, when you were able to get something for free, you sure as hell aren't going to agree that you now have to pay for it. No one will settle for less rights (or, more accurately, less power) than they currently have unless coerced to it. It's against logic. Paid mods and tight control over them don't benefit the end consumer, who could in the past grab the mod from various places without paying a dime. The modder may never even see the money if he/she doesn't profit enough. But for the modder, this isn't a big thing, because he/she was earning zero from sharing the mod anyway. If the modder is smart and doesn't see this as his/her job, but rather as a complimentary activity, he/she doesn't incur into any risks. Edited April 28, 2015 by Cerberus87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical CC Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Valve did this because it's a step in their goal to monopolize the PC gaming market, just like the products they've announced earlier this year. If they succeed, soon they'll have the standard OS, the standard controller, the standard store, the standard PCs which run the games, and now the standard trading place for mods. This is the consolization of PC gaming. Valve is thinking about the long run. If they manage to drive EA and Ubisoft away or, instead, find a better way to integrate their DRM software into Steam, it'll be Valve's great win in the gaming front. If Valve's SteamOS becomes the de facto OS for gaming purposes instead of Windows, it'll be another great win. The Steam Controller being superior to the Xbox One controller for PC gaming will be another win for Valve over Microsoft. Imagine if they go even further and integrate streaming TV services into Steam, which is already a multimedia platform. Xbox One and PS4 can do it, so Valve will want to be able to do it, too. If Valve has their way, in the future we'll all be gaming on Steam Machines/Steam Links and using Steam Controllers to play. Their moves, if successful, will change PC gaming forever. The advantage of customization will be lost in favor of a standard by which most will abide. Valve wants to be to PC gamers what Microsoft was to home computers. Yeah, totally agree. It's so obvious that they are trying to monopolize the PC market. And according to my experience, a market with no competitors and only one dominate provider will lead to a disaster, for the users. Everything shall be in their control, they can do what they want and there's no one strong enough to oppose. It will take time, but they will succeed, no doubt. The future is grim, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxmonste Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) I'm sure they'll try to bring it back in the future. Oh, please no. That's the last thing I want, personally. Keep it cancelled and thank you, Valve :D Edited April 29, 2015 by Rxmonste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirmola Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) I just read valve's official statement on this. (avalible at: http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218 ) and it rather hillariously contains the following statement: it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing THey go on to say that their inspiration was games like counterstrike that started out as mods, and continue with: We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. Translation: They are going to try again somewhere else. Hearteingly, (or not depending on how cynical you are), they end with: Now that you've backed a dump truck of feedback onto our inboxes, we'll be chewing through that, but if you have any further thoughts let us know. I love how they come out and say "we were wrong, and will take feedback into account" Most game companies would not even bother to do that, and would probably have just ended the program with no explanation. One last thing: they added a donate button like everyone suggested. Also, they refunded all money anyone paid for mods. I like these responses a lot. Anyone can screw up. Surprisingly few can admit it and learn so quickly. Edited April 29, 2015 by sirmola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical CC Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Wow, those responses are actually...okay. I am surprised. I didnt expect nowadays companies to do something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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