Children growth and initial stats

[Jayvee94]

Sorry to necro this thread a bit, didn't want to start a new topic. Has there been any further news/confirmation it is indeed (Optional Parent + Child)/2 for growths?

Yeah. Same question here

[astrophys]

This thread was necro'ed yesterday, but seeing that its a topic of great interest and its now already been necro'd by others already (and I might be able to help answer the question that the people seem to want to know), I'm going to post here anyways. I do this in the interest of improving our understanding of the mechanics… I humbly ask for forgiveness for this transgression, done so that we might understand growths….

Yeah, although I don't have any game code in front of me to confirm, I'm getting pretty sure that its almost certainly [default + variable]/2.

From YouTuber omegaevolution's Hard/Classic Nohr playthrough videos, here is Elise!Ophelia

https://youtu.be/U9PDiydrMdI?t=5m37s

Actual Stats Gained from Child Seal to Level 16, for Sorc and for Dark Knight:

Sorc: 7 Hp, 2 Str, 15 Mag, 6 Skl, 12 Spd, 9 Lck, 5 Def, 11 Res

Dark Knight: 11 Hp, 13 Str, 10 Mag, 9 Skl, 10 Spd, 13 Lck, 10 Def, 7 Res

Let's see how the two hypotheses work.

a.) Awakening Rules: Ophelia's Personal Growths = [Ophelia's default + Elise's + Odin's]/3; add Ophelia's Personal Growths to Class Growths for total growths.

Sorc Prediction:

HP 7.5

Str 2.75 ---> could likely round up to 3; borderline wrong

Mag 13.75 ----> WRONG! This at best rounds to 14; Should be 15. [Odin's magic growth is low]

Skl 7 --> WRONG! Its 1 SKL too high [Odin's skill growth is high]

Spd 11.25 ---> borderline wrong…. unless it is liberally rounded up to the next highest whole number (12), which is unlikely, it would be wrong

Lck 9.75 ---> borderline…. 9 is actually the right value, but this is much closer to 10 here…

Def 6.5 ---> WRONG! Too high (Odin has higher defense)

Res 9.75 --> WRONG! Should be 11; Odin has lower RES than Elise.

Dark Knight Prediction:

HP 11,75 --> borderline…. would likely be 12, which is too high

Str --> 13.745 ---> borderline, almost too high

Mag 8.5 --> WRONG; should be 10; this is low, like Odin's low miagc

Skl --.> 9.75, borderline to being too high

Spd 9.5 okay

Lck 12.5 okay

Def 11 Def --> WRONG! Too high! Should be 10

Res 6.25 ---> probably wrong unless liberally rounded up to next full (7)

b.) My proposed hypothesis: Ophelia's Personal Growths = [Ophelia's default + Elise's]/2; add Ophelia's Personal Growths to Class Growths for total growths.

Sorc Prediction:

HP 6.625 Good (7)

Str 1.5 Good (2)

Mag 15 Correct

Skl 5.875 Good (6)

Spd 12 Correct

Lck 10.125 --> Wrong, too high… that said, Odin was pretty close to 10 as well (9.75), when the actual result was 9, so its odd for both of them here

Def 5.375 Good (5)

Res 10.5 Good (11) (round up)

Dark Knight Prediction:

HP 10.875 Good (11)

Str 12.5 Good (13, round up at 0.5)

Mag 9.75 Good (10)

Skl 8.625 Good (9, round up)

Spd 10.25 Good (10)

Lck 12.875 Good (13)

Def 9.875 Good (10)

Res 7 Correct

Conclusion:

The Awakening formula very consistently produces wrong answers where my Ophelia's Personal Growths = [Ophelia's default + Elise's]/2 formula generally predicts the right answers. The Awakening formula produces wrong answers that exceed or fall below the actual values by 1 or more in many places. They are consistent in their pattern; where Odin's growths are notably larger than Elise's, we get a value that is higher than the actual; where they are lower, we get a value that is too low.

This would be consistent with Odin's growths not being involved in the calculation at all so that when we remove his high growths the too high values become correct and likewise when we remove his low growths the too low values also become correct.

We saw similar behavior in cases such as Luna!Matoi.

And this is also consistent with the pattern I have seen before.

EDIT/ADDNENDUM: Links to more calculations:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55355&page=75#entry4010534

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55355&page=75#entry4010731

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55355&p=4011618

As for a more subtle example, consider this case from EmiruTheKnight, with Hinoka!Matoi Child Sealing to level 6

The Awakening formula would have had her Falcon warrior promotion (which isn't what she promotes to but we still see the stats) give her 4.333 Str. Now, this could end up by chance or rounding up to the next whole to 5, but its far more plausible to round down to 4 (instead leaving rounding up to 4.5). And Likewise, the Awakening formal would have given 5.08333 RES… which is almost certainly 5 RES unless it gets brought up to the next full integer for some reason.

But the actual values for the promotion are 5 Str and 6 Res. And the [Matoi's default + Hinoka's]/2 = Matoi's Personal Growths formal would have given her 4.5 Str and 5.5 Res… both of which are plausible round-ups to 5 and 6, unlike the implausible round ups that would be needed for 4.333 and 5.08333.

So, yeah, I'm almost certain that my hypothesis is the correct one and that the Awakening formula does not apply in fates. Tests are quite consistently coming in favor of my predictions and against the Awakening formula.

Thus, I will consider my [default + variable]/2 hypothesis elevated from hypothesis to a THEORY of how the game mechanics work. (And in science, the THEORY is the culmination of the idea, the graduation of a hypothesis into the next level, the gold-standard of science, so to speak; although of course theories may always be revised if new evidence comes out that calls them into question.)

As far as I'm concerned, its [default + variable]/2. The default father for the children tied to these fathers seems to have no effect whatsoever. Its all the kid and their variable mother.

I haven't actually tested Shigure (from the fixed mother Azura) or Kanna (from the fixed mother female Kamui), but I'm hypothesizing that they'll obey the same rules, as the father is now the variable parent in those cases.

Edited January 4, 2016 by astrophys

[eharper256]

Thanks again for your work, astrophys.

[astrophys]

Part of the problem with testing Kanna and Shigure is that my method has been watching child seals during battle from playthrough videos; but both Shigure and Kanna join at the ends of their chapters, so I haven't found one of their child dealings yet. It could still be out there, but if it is I haven't seen or at least noticed them yet.

If someone could report the promotional stat gains from a child sealing of them (preferably listing what stats either class would give), as well as the parents and the Avatar's asset and flaw (to test the Awakening method vs. the other methods, as well as to confirm whether or not the Avatar has an effect on Kanna), that would be the kind of data I'd need to test that.

[Rizziah]

Oooh, more people should see this. If it is Child's growths + Mama's growths/2, I feel that might change my planned pairings a bit. have heard a lot of people saying that the kids were turning out more like their mother then their dad, if that's anything.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Well yes it would make more sense...and it is like them to make it such that "you can either make the children super strong of really weak"

Well not entirely.

Magic mothers would "promote" magic weapons like the levin sword and what not (there aren't really that many viable mixed users in the game), though they would also cause the strength stat to "drop"

[astrophys]

Child's growths + Mama's growths/2

(Child's Default Growths + Mother's Growths)/2, for the case where we have a fixed male parent for the kid and a female variable parent

The parentheses are important; as you've written it

, the child's default growths are counting twice as much as the mother's, while this doesn't seem to actually be the case; instead, the child's and mother's growths have equal weights in the formula (both have the /2 applied to them).

EDIT:

As for CocoaGalaxy's point, yes, basically any 50% magic mother should guarantee a child with at least a 25% magic growth (more if the kid actually had some form of growth themselves beforehand), while the 65% magic mothers would guarantee a minimum of 32.5% magic growth (more if the kid had non-zero magic growths beforehand).

However, many of these 50% or 65% magic mothers also have only 5% Str growth, so in many cases (where the kid had much higher Str growths) their Str growth will be cut to slightly more than half what it was before [the higher the growth original, the more this is approximately true].

Example: Orochi!Matoi: Matoi has 35% Str and 15% Mag by default; Orochi makes her have 20% Str and 40% magic according to these rules.

Sakura is special as she's a 50% magic growth mother, but she ALSO has a 30% Str growth, so she won't hurt the Str of a would-be hybrid unit nearly as much.

Edited September 24, 2015 by astrophys