Serenes Forest 1v1 Tourney Community

[Ragnell]

UPDATE: TOURNEY CREATED AND RULES ESTABLISHED - JOIN NOW!

The release of online user tourneys has given us a great opportunity to create a tourney as a hub for 1v1 SF action! We can duke it out according to our own rules whenever we want, without the need to friend everyone we play! I have created a private tourney for 100 SF members which will last for the rest of the year. However, the point of this tourney is not to compete for wins or points, but rather to give us a place for unlimited matches without needing to exchange ID information. The tourney will provide competitive 1v1 matches with no items, common tournament settings, and a reasonable stage list. How can a user-created tourney have 1v1, you ask? Well, the trick is, it can't. For now at least. However, since this tourney will be for SF members only, we can set our own rules here on the forum to achieve fairly painless 1v1 matches. So here's the tourney information and a quick list of settings and rules to keep things fun for everyone:

Name: SerenesForest1v1

ID: 15715307672860

Password: angelsword

***Rules & Settings (PLEASE READ)***

Community Rules:

1.) If you enter a lobby which already has 2 players, immediately exit the lobby and wait until that match has started to re-enter the tourney (a short 90 sec, unless another player interrupts).

2.) If a match accidentally starts with over 2 players, one player should immediately and repeatedly SD to allow the other fighters to play. There is no W/L record, and you can play unlimited matches, so SDing is no big deal.

3.) Rules regarding the banning of stages, customs, etc. must be followed regardless of whether the game allows you to select said options.

Settings:

1 v 1

3 Stock

8 Minutes

No Items

Custom Moves Allowed

No Custom Equipment

Mii Fighters Allowed (all sizes, costumes, etc.)

Sudden Death Off (Winner is determined by % damage dealt over the whole game)

Legal Stage List:

Battlefield

Final Destination

Kongo Jungle 64

Delfino Plaza

Skyloft

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Castle Siege

Town & City

Smashville

Duck Hunt

Dream Land (64)

All Omega stages

The allowed range of Mii Fighters and the legal stage list are subject to change as discussion continues here. If you have any input regarding the fairness or legality of certain settings, characters, customs, stages, etc., please post your thoughts here so we can continue to improve this community.

And remember, no johns.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Ragnell

[Anacybele]

Ooh, good idea! Can Omega stages be allowed too, though, if we can't pick certain normal ones? Like, I like Collosseum, but it doesn't look like it will be allowed.

[Ishi]

Everything sounds great except the awkward set up for actually getting a 1v1 match, but I guess there's no other way. Damn Sakurai and his hate for competitive play!

Also I second the request for omega stages, and also would request peaches castle 64 be legal, there's no awful or really annoying stage hazard.

Edited August 7, 2015 by JDT001

[Anacybele]

I don't think Sakurai hates competitive play... If he did, For Glory probably wouldn't exist. xP I don't think he has a good understanding of how competitive play really works.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Anacybele

[Elieson]

3DS...?

[Ragnell]

Ooh, good idea! Can Omega stages be allowed too, though, if we can't pick certain normal ones? Like, I like Collosseum, but it doesn't look like it will be allowed.

Since the game randomly picks a stage from our list, having omegas on would mean we're playing FD a disporportionate amount of the time. I wish Sakurai would have given us the option to both restrict stages and still choose a stage from the available ones, but no dice.

I suppose we could set the stage select to choose and then just agree to only select from a list of competitive stages we compile here. However, that might needlessly complicate things when we already have FD available. I'm gonna go with omegas off unless people really want the different backgrounds/music. Though I wouldn't be opposed to leaving one walled omega stage on, since a different base can lead to minute differences in recovery/KO options.

[Anacybele]

Since the game randomly picks a stage from our list, having omegas on would mean we're playing FD a disporportionate amount of the time. I wish Sakurai would have given us the option to both restrict stages and still choose a stage from the available ones, but no dice.

I suppose we could set the stage select to choose and then just agree to only select from a list of competitive stages we compile here. However, that might needlessly complicate things when we already have FD available. I'm gonna go with omegas off unless people really want the different backgrounds/music. Though I wouldn't be opposed to leaving one walled omega stage on, since a different base can lead to minute differences in recovery/KO options.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying here. I'd like the backgrounds and music myself, but if others don't care THAT much for that stuff, well, I guess I'll have to deal with that. At least Castle Siege is allowed. :3

3DS...?

No, please... Wii U is better, imo. I know not everyone has the Wii U version, but there are also people that don't have/don't want to play the 3DS version. If the two versions could be played together, this wouldn't be an issue, but... Yeah, sorry...

[Dotty]

This sounds great and I agree with your desired settings, Ragnell. Although I echo the sentiment of wanting Omegas.

I don't think it's too much to ask participants to keep the Stage List on-hand to refer to, though I cannot speak for everybody and I won't mind that much if they're banned.

Also I think it makes more sense to make Stages choice-based rather than (limited) random, if only because I don't exactly like being put at a stage disadvantage out of luck. A 50/50 choice between two players seems better.

[~Silver]

So, there won't be any record of our wins and losses?

so I can feel comfortable with playing?

[euklyd]

I like this idea a lot, although I don't actually know for sure how well it'd work, since I've yet to mess around with Tournament Mode.

The stagelist looks pretty good, except that I'd strike Wuhu and maybe Skyworld, as both have many transformations that are completely unworkable in many matchups.

I agree with Dotty that stages should be choice-based rather than random, as well.

[Ragnell]

I like this idea a lot, although I don't actually know for sure how well it'd work, since I've yet to mess around with Tournament Mode.

The stagelist looks pretty good, except that I'd strike Wuhu and maybe Skyworld, as both have many transformations that are completely unworkable in many matchups.

I agree with Dotty that stages should be choice-based rather than random, as well.

It should definitely work on a technical level (tourneys can require a password to enter, can hold 100 people, and can last until at least Dec 31 - maybe longer), but I'm not sure how well the 1v1 setup will be. Hopefully the waiting isn't too irksome for people, since the whole point of this is convenience.

As for stages, I've heard a lot of people on Smashboards say that they consider Wuhu and Skyloft to be at least as viable as Delfino Plaza, though I haven't extensively tested the stages myself, so I can't confirm their fairness. Neither have been in the majors due to concerns, but many locals use the stages, so I thought I might as well include them in the poll. If their popularity is low, we can cut them.

Setting stage selection to Choose seems to be at least reasonably popular, though, so I'll add that to the poll. My only hesitation with Stage Choose is that one of two outcomes might happen 1) People will always try to select "counterpick" stages that heavily benefit their character, or 2) People will default to BF, FD, or SV every match to be polite and not appear unfair. Setting the stage to Random would definitely produce some unfair matchups occasionally, but it does prevent any rudeness or over-politeness by players in stage selection while simplifying things. Still, I might be worrying too much. The stage list is not that hard to remember (wait... was that stage with Ridley legal?) and it would allow people to play where they want to play.

So, there won't be any record of our wins and losses?

so I can feel comfortable with playing?

I think the system always keeps track of your wins (haven't messed with it enough to know 100%), but there won't be any record of your losses. A win count alone tells you almost nothing, since 10 wins could mean you won 10/10 matches, or 10/100, so there shouldn't be any pressure.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Ragnell

[~Silver]

I think the system always keeps track of your wins (haven't messed with it enough to know 100%), but there won't be any record of your losses. A win count alone tells you almost nothing, since 10 wins could mean you won 10/10 matches, or 10/100, so there shouldn't be any pressure.

Awesome! Well, I like the sound of it all, then! ^_^

And I would like to point out, that 6 minutes tend to be the average time limit when it comes to 2 stocks. So, if it does turn out that 3 stocks is the case, that perhaps 8 minutes would be more suitable.

EDIT: Wait, I thought that if you picked "Random" when decided a stage, it picks the stage the opposing player picked?

Edited August 7, 2015 by ~Silver

[Ragnell]

EDIT: Wait, I thought that if you picked "Random" when decided a stage, it picks the stage the opposing player picked?

Really? I didn't know that!

However the issue is not the Random button on the stage select screen, but rather the setting of the tourney itself. I can set it up so that each player gets a 50:50 shot at selecting from any stage, or I can just make it so that a random stage from our list is automatically selected before every fight (I can set which stages are included in the random cycle).

Though it is possible to include both normal and omega stages in the Random selection, we wouldn't want to do that because the computer would be randomly selecting from 50 omegas and at most 12 normal stages, so 5/6 fights would be omegas. Thus we can only use omegas if I make the stage selection up to the players. However, if players can select the stage, I lose all control over restricting stages so they could theoretically pick non-legal stages or repeatedly select stages strongly in their favor. We're all mature people here (right? ... right?) , so hopefully that wouldn't happen, but at the very least everyone will need to make sure they know the legal stage list.

[Booton]

Custom moves should be disabled as you can't disable equipment.

[Anacybele]

No one here is seriously going to use equipment though.

[Water Mage]

I honestly don't see a problem with Skyloft, I can understand why some don't like Wuhu, but I honestly don't see much of a problem as well.

Here's a question:

I want customs turned on in this tournament, but if they are banned, what about Miis?

Also, we should do a 3ds tournament as well,

It's only fair for those who don't have a Wii U.

[euklyd]

I honestly don't see a problem with Skyloft, I can understand why some don't like Wuhu, but I honestly don't see much of a problem as well.

Here's a question:

I want customs turned on in this tournament, but if they are banned, what about Miis?

Also, we should do a 3ds tournament as well,

It's only fair for those who don't have a Wii U.

3DS tourney sounds important, yeah, but imo get rulesets hammered out and then make both consistent

re: Skyloft - my brief writeup is essentially

[note: using the names for transformations found in this smashboards thread (also has pictures & more in-depth discussion)]

Knight Academy transformation is kind of balls, but workable

Light Tower Top is fine

Windmill platforms kinda suck and promote camping out doing nothing, because approaching is too hard

Bridge has walkoffs but since it's transient it's not a dealbreaker

Plaza has the same not-much-of-an-issue as the Bridge, but only halfway

Residential District is pretty ok, EXCEPT that there are a lot of glitches that can occur with the cliff part of it; that alone is probably enough to ban the stage imo

Bazaar has double walkoffs

Isle of the Goddess has double walkoffs and interrupting terrain

Status of the Goddess (Top) is fully sick

Small Islands make approaching unbearable and can be circle-camped for days

Waterfall Island is like Windmill but with that cliff on the left making things worse

also you can get clipped by the stage while on the platform and possibly killed / saved from dying, which is ;/

it's not terrible (not as bad as Wuhu or some stuff), and I may be too eager to ban it, but it's still kinda really ehhhh....

EDIT: conflicted about whether to vote for Duck Hunt or not.. on the one hand I hate it, but on the other I don't think it deserves banning before like, Halberd and Delfino and Castle Siege (and I don't think those should be banned at this time)

EDIT #2: after talking with people a bit, if we want to be competitive about things, it might make more sense to have a smaller, less widely-varying stagelist, since we don't actually have a way to strike stages?

alternatively, we could embrace having a wider, less strictly competitive stagelist, and probably lean more towards legalizing Skyloft and Kongo Jungle 64 and such...

(or we could just stay the course!)

EDIT #LIKE A MILLION: forgot about this but imo Miis legal, preferably of a standard size, or one of three standard sizes, with full use of customs; Ragnell should add it to the poll, tho

Edited August 9, 2015 by Euklyd

[Kaoz]

Regarding the clipping, I'd like to note that this issue was somewhat fixed in the 1.0.8 patch (for those that can't be bothered to read the whole research thread). It's still possible to clip through certain parts of the stage, but the stage halts there for a bit longer now, allowing you to recover in time. Reference.

As for the number of legal stages, thinking about it more, it's probably fine to have more stages the longer the tournament goes on for - the more matches are played the less variety there will be from the random stage selection.

[Shin]

I honestly don't see a problem with Skyloft, I can understand why some don't like Wuhu, but I honestly don't see much of a problem as well.

Here's a question:

I want customs turned on in this tournament, but if they are banned, what about Miis?

Also, we should do a 3ds tournament as well,

It's only fair for those who don't have a Wii U.

I'd be very happy to host a 3DS one alongside the Wii U one. I think it's silly to exclude people who don't have a Wii U. If people don't want to play the 3DS one, they don't need to join. I'm not sure if the 3DS will get a tourney function, but I'd still be possible to organise in a thread.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Shin

[Booton]

No one here is seriously going to use equipment though.

There would be no way to prevent someone from doing so, Honor system or not, there will always be those that abuse it.

[Anacybele]

There would be no way to prevent someone from doing so, Honor system or not, there will always be those that abuse it.

Not here. Nobody here likes equipment. And the OP even says equipment is not allowed. Nobody here is going to use it, trust me.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Anacybele

[Ragnell]

With a full weekend of discussion finished, I think I've got a good idea of what the general opinions are regarding tourney settings. So without further ado, here is the tourney information:

Name: SerenesForest1v1

ID: 15715307672860

password: angelsword

The tourney will begin tomorrow at 5 p.m., and will last until 11:50 p.m. on December 31 (both Eastern standard time). If the tourney is popular, a new one can be made to continue next year. Players can fight unlimited times, and only win count will be recorded for each player. Following the poll results, I have made the tourney 3 stock, 8 minutes. Sudden death is off in the event of time-out, so the displayed winner of the match is determined by % damage dealt over the whole fight. I figure this is closer to real tournament rules than sudden death, though players are free to ignore the "official" results and instead use competitive rules and look at each player's % at game's end. Both Mii Fighters and Customs are on, so all players MUST agree not to use custom equipment. Custom moves only. Stages will be selected by players before each match, giving each player a 50:50 chance to get the stage they want. Despite theoretically being able to select any stage, players in the community MUST choose from our approved stagelist. To begin with, the following stages are legal:

Battlefield

Final Destination

Delfino Plaza

Kongo Jungle 64

Skyloft

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Castle Siege

Town & City

Smashville

Duck Hunt

Dream Land (64)

All Omega stages

I ended up setting the Choose stage option partially because of popularity, and partially because it will allow us to continually update our stage list as more matches are played and the outside competitve metagame evolves. Wuhu Island will NOT be legal in the community to begin with, due to barely 1/4 of participants wanting the stage, though this can be changed later. Kongo Jungle 64 received votes from 50% of participants (my very loose cutoff for stages), so it will be legal to start with, but can be banned later should the community speak out against it. Halberd and Skyloft also received mixed responses, so feel free to continue the discussion of all these stages' legality here. I will update the OP with all this information.

As for Mii fighter settings, I have no initial rules for Mii sizes, costumes, etc., since I really don't see any disadvantages to Mii customization other than making it difficult to learn how to combo the suckers. I'm not super informed on the debate, though, so I encourage anyone with concerns over this issue to speak up.

Finally, there seems to be some interest in a 3DS community. I actually play 3DS more than Wii U due to convenience, so I would be all for a way to connect players. However, without tourney mode I don't see a super easy way to do that. If someone has an idea for how to organize things, by all means go for it. If you want to use this topic to discuss things or want to permanently base the community here, that's fine. I can edit the OP to include any important info for 3DS players.

[Sasori]

Oh cool. I thought the matchmaking before tournament mode was a bit of a hassle so I haven't showed myself in the vs topics that much lately. I did sign in for this tournament though.

[Anacybele]

I don't know if I'll actually join this anymore. I don't seem to ever be that good, no matter how much I play. :( I mean, not that I want to win or anything, I want to have fun. But I don't have much fun if I'm losing most of the time. And badly a lot... I can have fun if I lose once in a whlie, but sometimes it's just not fun...

Edited August 10, 2015 by Anacybele

[Ragnell]

I don't know if I'll actually join this anymore. I don't seem to ever be that good, no matter how much I play. :( I mean, not that I want to win or anything, I want to have fun. But I don't have much fun if I'm losing most of the time. And badly a lot... I can have fun if I lose once in a whlie, but sometimes it's just not fun...

I know the feeling. And you can feel free to not enter the tourney, or enter and only play occassionally. There are 100 spots, so I highly doubt we'll fill them all. And I'm not aiming to create a super intense atmosphere of competition. Honestly, there's not even really a "winner" of this tournament, since it's not really a tournament. More than anything, I just want to be able to practice with with people from the site, without needing to constantly exchange friend information. Hence why you can play as many times as you want. I would turn off record-keeping entirely, but the system won't let me. Anyway, don't feel like there's any additional pressure on you beyond what you put on yourself (which if you're anything like me is already pressure enough).

I'm not all that great myself, since my only real practice is through For Glory, where my win rate is pretty pitiful. I really want to play on non-FD stages, but the friend barrier has always stopped me from branching out. So I'm excited to finally use Ike on a stage where he's not constantly peppered by projectiles.