Issues with the Nohr path story line?

[Dark Sage]

Notice none of them are actually from the main lord's home countries? The equivalent of those characters would be Kotaru from Fuuma. Hoshido isn't Lahus or Etruia, it's Altea, Chalpy, Pherea, Renais, Ylisse, Gallia. Where with the exception of that one guy from Ylisse who sells the party out in chapter 7 of Awakening or Orson(due to circumstances and not his normal state of mind) there are no bad people at all or infighting in those kingdoms(or Duchy in Chalpy's case I guess).

Pherae isn't the country itself, Lycia is: it, Ostia, Laus, and Thria are all duchies within the country. Similarly, Chalphy is part of Grandbell and Sigurd and his men identify themselves as Grandbellians, not as Chalphans. Gallia also isn't the lord's home country; I mean, Ike was born there, but he doesn't remember jack shit and spent nearly all his life in Crimea, which was shown to have problems. You are right about Altea, Renais, and Yllise having no infighting though.

By the way, depending on your choices, Hoshido can be an enemy country too. Considering how it and Nohr get full focus in the narrative compared to Fuuma or Muse, there's really no good reason why Nohr's inner issues are focused on but not Hoshido's. And in a game where you choose what side you're going to be on, you generally don't want to make one side clearly better than the other.

[Alazen]

spoiler

Notice none of them are actually from the main lord's home countries? The equivalent of those characters would be Kotaru from Fuuma. Hoshido isn't Lahus or Etruia, it's Altea, Chalpy, Pherea, Renais, Ylisse, Gallia. Where with the exception of that one guy from Ylisse who sells the party out in chapter 7 of Awakening or Orson(due to circumstances and not his normal state of mind) there are no bad people at all or infighting in those kingdoms(or Duchy in Chalpy's case I guess).

Fates goes out of its way to frame Takumi as being in the wrong for his attitude towards Kamui (not worshiping him or excusing him or whatever) no matter how hard you try to excuse it. Takumi had fertile ground to hunt Kamui's head to the death without a cartoon villain to corrupt him. Shinon saw Ike as a spoiled brat who didn't deserve to lead, left the Greil Mercenaries and joined Daein, fought Ike and lost, then rejoined the GMs while still keeping his contempt for Ike. He didn't need to be corrupted by a dragon or whatever to be willing to fight the Lord to the death. And Shinon had stronger grounds to be chastised for his attitude towards Ike or say how wrong it was than Takumi does (since Ike had never shown himself to be a threat to the Greil Mercenaries or otherwise work against them while Kamui aids the invasion of Hoshido in Conquest)

And Dark Sage already largely tackled your second paragraph. Altea and Renais get crushed early on in all their games with their Lords not liberating them until much later, and even the Lords' journeys are more about struggles between power blocs or quests across the continent. Awakening had lower worldbuilding with Black (or Dark Grey at best) and White war between nations so it doesn't speak well of Fates to be like it.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

Pherae isn't the country itself, Lycia is: it, Ostia, Laus, and Thria are all duchies within the country. Similarly, Chalphy is part of Grandbell and Sigurd and his men identify themselves as Grandbellians, not as Chalphans. Gallia also isn't the lord's home country; I mean, Ike was born there, but he doesn't remember jack shit and spent nearly all his life in Crimea, which was shown to have problems. You are right about Altea, Renais, and Yllise having no infighting though.

By the way, depending on your choices, Hoshido can be an enemy country too. Considering how it and Nohr get full focus in the narrative compared to Fuuma or Muse, there's really no good reason why Nohr's inner issues are focused on but not Hoshido's. And in a game where you choose what side you're going to be on, you generally don't want to make one side clearly better than the other.

One small thing: Lycia isn't a country, it's an alliance of countries. The European Union is not a country, and neither is NATO. And Grannvale was specifically compared to the Holy Roman Empire by Kaga. You know, that thing that was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire? The duchies of Grannvale were practically independent in all but name, especially Azmur the Invalid on the throne.

[Alazen]

Grannvale is flat-out called a kingdom. And Sigurd is noted in Chapter 2's map narration as governing Verdane on orders from Belhalla.

Lycia is called a land under the joint rulership of the Marquesses. Ostia is noted as the leading territory.

[blinkingbrave]

Takumi gets chastised for his attitude towards Kamui, gets a hate monster, and tells Kamui how wrong he was to not worship him. Being a pawn for a cartoon villain doesn't help.

I don't remember Shinon being corrupted by a cartoon villain.

Ah. Yeah, I think we just formed our opinions on different things. I can definitely see where you get that impression based on... actions? Plot points is maybe the word I'm looking for? I dunno, but that makes a lot more sense.

I'd say, like a couple of other people have already kinda pointed out, that the dialogue itself really mellows this out. I think it could have been the focus of those events, but the actual dialogue doesn't read like it is. This has kinda been discussed to death and we all know where everyone stands on it though, so I'll just leave it at that.

Either way, I get where you're coming from a lil more now.

Edited October 6, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[blinkingbrave]

As for the lack of Hoshido inner issues, I'd say that falls more as an flaw on the Hoshido route. It makes more sense to focus on it there, where we can see the royals and/or Kamui overcoming it than on Nohr, where a large portion of Kamui's issues stem from this apparent dichotomy between Nohrian and Hoshidan morals and doing this kinda plot twist thing trivializes that entire conflict. It'd be a similar to that cheap Garon plot twist doing away all the emotional conflict we could've gotten from the Nohrian royalty. I get that you're replacing Kamui's original issue with the whole 'no one's good or bad' type deal, but that seems like it'd be more appropriate to bring up on the Hoshidan route, where it could spark conflict, as opposed to the Nohrian one, where all it's going to do is make you feel better about your decision and handwave Kamui's original moral dilemma.

I get that it's interesting in theory, but to display Hoshido as grey, particularly on the Nohr route (where we aren't likely going to get the same insight on Ryouma as we can on Marx and his justice), kinda clashes with the moral issues already present. If anything, I'd think it'd make more sense to let Hoshido appear white on the Nohr route like they currently do and then show them as actually messy on the Hoshido one. You don't have to wreck the moral dilemma on Nohr, and you actually get to introduce one on Hoshido, which is kinda lacking in the moral dilemma and character development departments anyways.

Not to mention it has the potential to make that choice scene a lil wonky depending on how it's executed. Which would be another reason to put it on Hoshido so you can get a better handle on controlling how it's presented.

tl;dr: I'd blame Hoshido route's writing for this, not Nohr. Because it's an issue (and one of the things I'm definitely finding kinda disappointing on the Hoshido route), but not really Nohr route's issue.

Edited October 6, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Alazen]

How would showing the Hoshidan forces in a shadier light clash with how Kamui resolves to help the people of Nohr?

[Sasori]

I know the story in the big lines, but I haven't spoiled myself too much on the minor details so I may be wrong on some accounts.

What bothers me about the Nohr storyline is how little its actually about Nohr itself. From what i've expected people where somewhat more shady there thanks to basically living in Mordor, forcing them to expand or otherwise do things to help in their survival. The stupid Garron reveal basically makes Nohr and the plight of its people very unimportant and thats a shame. I'd prefer it if some characters like duty driven Xander of the more pragmatic Leon would at least rationalise the war with Hoshido somewhat. They don't have to be fond of it, but just have them express that the war with Hosido gives them the oppurtunity to get rescources to make things better for their country. Right now Xander just comes across as a somewhat spineless daddy's boy who knows everything's horrible, but still trusts Garon. It makes Xander a frustrating character too since I really like him in his supports.

The fact that its a good side versus evil side isn't something i'm against on paper. I don't mind Nohr being more in the wrong or Hoshido being a good place like most main character countries. But the lack of of nuance or reasons for Nohr's actions mentioned above sours me a bit. Hoshido could be a tad more ignorant about Nohr's plight and Nohr could be more desperate, instead of just being ruled by a mustache twirler.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Sasori

[blinkingbrave]

As I read it, her whole deal wasn't resolving to help the people of Nohr (Kamui's pretty openly all about helping anyone and everyone), her issue was with Garon and his shady tactics (killing all these innocents, blackmailing parties into surrender, disguising as neutral political leaders, etc). She didn't feel comfortable working alongside him and his men, and this issue was exacerbated by the fact that the Hoshidans didn't use these same tactics, instead meeting them honorably on the battle field like Marx tells us the Nohrian way should be. If Kamui comes to understand that Hoshido actually operates the same way as Garon on the Nohr route, then a large portion of this issue with working alongside Garon is gone, because the Hoshidans aren't actually innocents after all. If both sides are morally equal in the war, then there wasn't really a 'wrong' decision for Kamui to worry over making and there's no need to fear that because she made this wrong decision a bunch of innocent people die because as it turns out, no one's innocent after all and there is no wrong decision.

I imagine she's still more jaded by the end, but it's a much easier process, instead of the more conflicted 'all of these innocent people are dead because of me but I can't let my loved ones die so...' issue she currently struggles with.

Like I said, I would've liked to see grey Hoshido on the Hoshidan side, though, because as it is, the story's so far been pretty smooth moral sailing for Kamui. The only reason I'm glad it didn't show up on Nohr is because Nohr already has its own moral issue and this kinda feels like it actually solves that issue instead of providing more conflict. No point in adding something in if it'll nip the pre-existing storyline in the bud from the Ice Tribe chapter.

My suspicion is that on the Nohr route (at least the way I'm picturing this to be written. maybe as a chapter or two once you get to Hoshido, seeing as you're the aggressors on this route and the Hoshidans don't really leak into Nohr too much) is that it would come mid/late plot, by the time Kamui's whole regret monologue has already happened. In this case, it'll feel like a 'get out of jail free' card, which... kinda isn't good. Alternatively, it happens early game, meaning that there's no moral dilemma at all, because as I already mentioned, showing that the good side is actually shady only makes you feel better for picking the blatantly shady side. Either way, it's not doing good things for the Nohr plot, when it could actually help on the Hoshido one, which already has an issue with the Nohrians being the more morally/emotionally compelling characters and limelight stealing.

Edited October 6, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Gomez_Addams]

Grannvale is flat-out called a kingdom. And Sigurd is noted in Chapter 2's map narration as governing Verdane on orders from Belhalla.

Lycia is called a land under the joint rulership of the Marquesses. Ostia is noted as the leading territory.

There's nothing "joint" about it. Each Marquess controls his own territory, but has no authority over the other territories. It is called a League, a Federation, and an Alliance. None of these words mean "single country." Ostia may be the "leading territory," but it holds no suzerainty over the others. It has no authority about the day-to-day internal matters of the individual territories.

There's also this, from Eliwood and Hector's A Support:

Eliwood: You know, what was it– ten years ago? When the lords of Lycia held the oath rites, back in Ostia? “Should one land of Lycia be attacked, all will fight as one…” Remember? While our parents were off pledging their oaths, we kids were in that one room.

Those lords were not swearing an oath to a sovereign, they were pledging support in case of invasion. In other words, an alliance.

As for Grannvale, the game outright states that each Duchy is somewhat autonomous. The main thing to consider here is that Belhalla doesn't seem to have any military forces of its own, aside from the Weissen Ritter. It relies entirely on the individual duchies to provide for its defense. There's also the fact that they are referred to as "duchies," which is traditionally used for independent countries, rather than "dukedoms."

[Alazen]

Binding Blade's map narration says that Lycia is a land under the joint rule of assorted marquises. And a kingdom with assorted regions being ''somewhat autonomous'' is hardly bizarre for a pre-industrial society.

Fates tries to make a big deal of Nohr having infighting and conflicting agendas. It does not really do so for Hoshido even though it is Nohr's Eastern counterpart in that it is the leading nation of the East and the big war is framed as being between them (or their power blocs anyway). We don't see Hoshidan troops going around performing war crimes or whatever either.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

I get that it's interesting in theory, but to display Hoshido as grey, particularly on the Nohr route (where we aren't likely going to get the same insight on Ryouma as we can on Marx and his justice), kinda clashes with the moral issues already present. If anything, I'd think it'd make more sense to let Hoshido appear white on the Nohr route like they currently do and then show them as actually messy on the Hoshido one. You don't have to wreck the moral dilemma on Nohr, and you actually get to introduce one on Hoshido, which is kinda lacking in the moral dilemma and character development departments anyways.

The problem is the sheer contrast. I agree that making Hoshido equally scummy as Garon and friends would undermine the conflict of Hoshido being the more moral choice, but as it stands, the contrast is so stark, Kamui is made to look like a selfish idiot for choosing the bad guy side. They don't focus enough on WHY the Nohrians must invade Hoshido and they act like Hoshidan aggression is totally blameless.

There are two moral dilemmas for Kamui's choice between nations. The first is about family. Love and loyalty vs blood and honor. The second dilemma, which unfortunately isn't well balanced in Fates, is the moral one. Hoshido is "good" because they are peaceful defenders. But is Nohr "bad" if they can't survive without taking resources from others? On paper, it sounds obvious but for Kamui who is entrenched in the situation, it should be a difficult choice.

The issue with the Nohr route, is that Kamui, being the moral champion that he is, belongs in Hoshido, not Nohr. If we were to equate Kamui to a dragonfish, Hoshido is the ocean and Nohr is a desert. When you choose Nohr, all you can do is watch Kamui flail around helplessly and you wonder why a fish would be so foolish as to choose a place without water. Now, if the conflict was framed as Kamui wanting to make that desert fertile and debating whether it's right to steal water from the ocean, you would have a real moral dilemma.

EDIT: My analogy gets a little confused. "Water" in this represents both necessary resources and strong morals. Nohr is lacking both, which makes Kamui a bad protagonist for Nohr.

There's nothing "joint" about it. Each Marquess controls his own territory, but has no authority over the other territories. It is called a League, a Federation, and an Alliance. None of these words mean "single country." Ostia may be the "leading territory," but it holds no suzerainty over the others. It has no authority about the day-to-day internal matters of the individual territories.

There's also this, from Eliwood and Hector's A Support:

Eliwood: You know, what was it– ten years ago? When the lords of Lycia held the oath rites, back in Ostia? “Should one land of Lycia be attacked, all will fight as one…” Remember? While our parents were off pledging their oaths, we kids were in that one room.

Those lords were not swearing an oath to a sovereign, they were pledging support in case of invasion. In other words, an alliance.

Whether it's a single country or not isn't the point. Those "duchies" have an association with each other and (one would presume) common principles to make them want to form an alliance in the first place. When we go into map narration, the Lycian Alliance is discussed as a single unit, comparable to Bern, Etruia, etc. If the moral depth of each territory seems black and white, it's because as individual countries, they are too small and insignificant to focus much on.

Edited October 6, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Sunwoo]

The issue with the Nohr route, is that Kamui, being the moral champion that he is, belongs in Hoshido, not Nohr. If we were to equate Kamui to a dragonfish, Hoshido is the ocean and Nohr is a desert. When you choose Nohr, all you can do is watch Kamui flail around helplessly and you wonder why a fish would be so foolish as to choose a place without water. Now, if the conflict was framed as Kamui wanting to make that desert fertile and debating whether it's right to steal water from the ocean, you would have a real moral dilemma.

Kamui used flail!

It's not very effective …

But in all seriousness I agree with you. And I, personally, think it's okay for Kamui to be shown as selfish to some degree as long as they didn't come off as a wishy-washy pansy who regrets their choice the moment they makes it.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Alazen]

I suggest that if you're going to frame one of Kamui's nation choices as the ''selfish'' one, then you could make Hoshido the selfish one.

Get rid of the Innocent Hoshido That Does Nothing Wrong angle and/or tone down Nohr's specialty in war crimes. Have a Hoshidan offer Kamui wealth or territory or even a place in the line of succession if he joins.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Alazen

[Sunwoo]

In the scenario that is presented, Nohr comes off as the better "selfish" choice because of its personal ties to Kamui. They should still be a sympathetic protagonist to some point. Not to mention that they have been raised in Nohr up until now and only found out just recently that they're even Hoshidan. Maybe their Hoshidan ties mean nothing because they were raised as Nohrian, and they believe in the Nohrian ways and that invading Hoshido is worth securing resources for Nohr, and if the Hoshidan siblings die then it's regrettable but an unavoidable cost in the betterment for Nohr? Basically, stand up for what you choose and believe in it. Not regret it the moment you pick it.

Hoshido definitely should be gray, yes, but on the surface it should look "better" than Nohr because otherwise what the hell is Kamui's incentive for picking them anyway?

[blinkingbrave]

I thiiiiink we just have different interpretations of the choice scene. I didn't particularly think Hoshido had any pull from the family side (iirc, actually they kinda make Kamui lowkey uncomfortable at first) or Nohr on the moral side (hellooooo, Garon), so I understood the choice scene as loved ones vs morals. Kinda like that guy in the beginning of the thread who mentioned how the Nohr choice was intended to be selfish.

Family strikes me as the common thread between Kamui and the royals, but not a theme. While I haven't gotten completely through both routes (so perhaps my opinion will change), it really hasn't been explored in any capacity, despite having plenty of opportunities (that Saizou/Suzukaze reunion, Marx, whose character insight focuses on his ideals instead of all the family theme we could have gotten involving his father issues, the meeting of all families together that only resulted in some banter and highlighting of the foils, etc). While Kamui still calls everyone brother/sister, the definition of that isn't terribly explored. I get that that kind of exploration isn't typically a thing in FE, but it is on the Nohr route this time around, at least, and they didn't take the opportunities they could have. Given that I'm almost through the Nohr route, even if they were to change something around in the last handful of chapters (and slime Garon's existence doesn't bode particularly well, because if family were a theme that would be a fantastic way to explore it) it still wouldn't have the overarching 'I prioritized my loved ones over the people who were right and the fallout sucks' from the chapter split.

I feeeeel like I've already discussed the moral issue? Maybe? I dunno, but Garon's existence kinda... made that feel like a non-issue. One side's clearly right, the other's clearly wrong, and Kamui quite clearly understands that as a thing, given that Garon's plan was to kamikaze her in Hoshido, among many other giveaways pre-choice scene. Without knowing more about when Garon was possessed, I feel like it's kinda down to fan theory how legit any reason for Nohr starting the war truly is.

I'd say it's more about Kamui adapting to Nohr and working through the moral dilemma of her own moral code vs her and her loved ones' skins. Floundering is a natural side-effect, and it'd be a lil strange for this cloistered girl (who's so sheltered from Nohr she doesn't even know her siblings' retainers names) to suddenly be down with the murder of innocents come chapter seven.

[NekoKnight]

If family weren't a theme, there wouldn't be a point in Kamui being kidnapped or him being related to anyone in Hoshido at all. Kamui could have always been in Nohr and only visited Hoshido through circumstance.

[Time the Crestfallen]

If family weren't a theme, there wouldn't be a point in Kamui being kidnapped or him being related to anyone in Hoshido at all. Kamui could have always been in Nohr and only visited Hoshido through circumstance.

Not to mention S-Ranking/having children with them wouldn't feel so goddamn creepy/out-of-place.

[blinkingbrave]

Hmmm... How to explain... I think it's relevant at times...

There's enough stuff there where I can see why it could be called a theme, but it doesn't really have consistent overarching relevance to me and it doesn't feel like it's explored so much as exploited to pull on heartstrings. There are some exceptions where you get this look into characters' heads, but on Kamui's end (minus the choice chapter), it doesn't stretch terribly far beyond 'I can't fight brother/sister.' For me, there are too many missed opportunities (Garon, Mikoto, Kamui's sudden bond with the Hoshidan siblings, particularly if you go Nohr, actually, Kamui's familial relationship with the royals relatively unexplored in the main plot, period) and conflicting things (Hello, Hoshidan s-supports and Kamui/Marx shipbait main plot dialogue) for this to be a theme.

I dunno. I can see where other people get it, but there's just too much squandered for me, personally, to embrace it. If it was more generally present perhaps (beyond the 'brother/sister' calling and 'I can't fight XYZ!', which is a lil too superficial for me), instead of just relevant on some of those chapters where you happen to fight a royal... Or maybe if it felt like Kamui should have the connection to the Hoshidan family she suddenly just... kinda... has...

I dunno. Something like this is just super-dependent on how you read things. Perhaps localization will iron it out and push it more clearly for me one way or the other.

Edited October 7, 2015 by blinkingbrave