Sain (FE7)

[VincentASM]

Ignore this post for now. The article is in the next post down.

Edited October 2, 2008 by VincentASM

[Wist]

Edit (2008.10.10):

The most up to date article on Sain currently up for discussion can be found in post #9.

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Introductory comments

I rewrote my summary of Sain to better reflect the way Vincent’s piece on Sara was written. I realized that I had focused on Sain’s personality and subsequently neglected information such as how he is recruited and why he is involved in the story in the first place…. I also cleaned up some small oddities I noticed. Hopefully this is a clearer read; I dropped out some information in favor of some more relevant information.

Article

Summary:

Sain is an overconfident but dedicated green-haired cavalier in the employ of Lycia’s House Caelin. He travels and fights alongside his fellow knight and close friend, Kent. Sain is overtly dramatic and is a known by all to be a prolific womanizer, but despite his theatrics he is unwavering in his duty as a knight of Caelin.

Bio:

Where his compatriot Kent is cautious and tactful, Sain is dramatic and reckless. The duo first meets Lady Lyndis in the city of Bulgar with a dismissed attempt by Sain to court her. This is a common pattern for most of Sain’s first meetings with women. Lyn is soon attacked by bandits but Kent and Sain come to her aid, joining her team at the advent of Chapter 1. Sain’s overconfident nature is quickly brought to light when he is reluctant to forsake his heroic appearance by fighting with a sword instead of a lance.

While Sain presents himself audaciously, the thespian knight is resolute in his allegiance to Caelin and Lady Lyndis. He provides relevant knowledge of Lycian lands and accompanies Lyn as she gathers an army and ultimately claims Caelin from her deranged uncle, Lord Lundgren. After Caelin is conquered, Sain is promoted to subcommander under Kent.

Sain is not seen by the player again until the chapter Noble Lady of Caelin. Sain, and the rest of Lyn’s Mercenaries who stayed in Caelin, fight alongside Eliwood’s army to reclaim the besieged province. He remains with Eliwood’s army for the rest of the game, opening the way for many fun support conversations.

Sain combines his incomparable mannerisms with a formal speech register to humorous effect, but he comes across as too overtly mischievous for most women (he tells Fiora that he memorized the name of every woman in the army). Serra remarks that Sain flirts with every woman he comes across, and Rebecca recalls Lyn noting the exact same behavior. In his spare time, Sain tries to convince Priscilla that he requires her medical expertise for the seventh time. As implied in his support conversations with Fiora and Priscilla, Sain is adamant in his duty to his country, but he is most easily associated with excessive womanizing.

Sain is scarcely referenced after his assimilation into Eliwood’s army, but the epilogue states that Sain retains his knightly duties after Nergal’s defeat. Sain remains in Caelin until Lyn abdicates her rule to Ostia. If Sain remains unmarried, he opts to become an independent knight (and is said to retain his love of women). If he’s paired with Fiora or Rebecca, he instead chooses to marry after Ostia accepts command of Caelin. Sain is silly and carefree, but he’s not stupid and he knows where his loyalties lie.

Author’s comments

This is again written in American English even though I noticed that Vincent used British spellings in his bio; if he’s concerned about dialectal consistency I can change this piece to reflect that.

I used ‘duo’ to refer to Sain and Kent together because ‘pair’ and ‘couple’ suggest romantic relations. I think the word ‘duo’ sounds strange though, so if anyone has any suggestions for replacing the word, or wishes to make any other corrections or alterations, feel free to change it. I’m also worried than I involved Kent too much, but I’m not sure how I could elucidate Sain’s role in the story without also similarly involving Kent. Lastly, were Caelin, Pherae, Ostia, etc., considered provinces or something else?

Edited October 10, 2008 by Wist

[VincentASM]

I'm currently helping with proof-reading a manga and, there, I usually write short comments (almost in note form). I'm thinking it's not so helpful here, but it's kind of hard to break the habit >___<

Where his compatriot Kent is cautious and tactful, Sain is dramatic and reckless.

Seems a little out of place. Perhaps it should be placed in the summary or have another sentence before it.

(he tells Fiora that he memorized the name of every woman in the army)

I think a "for instance" or similar phrase might be useful before this.

In his spare time, Sain tries to convince Priscilla that he requires her medical expertise for the seventh time

"For the seventh time" doesn't seem to flow logically, since the sentence seems to start a new... "topic". Hopefully that made sense. If not, and regardless, I think it needs slightly more history/development to get to the "seventh time".

Anyway, I thought it was a good read. I'd say it's pretty much ready to be added to the main site : o

I think it's alright to reference other characters, especially if they're crucial to the main character. For instance, it's going to be hard to write about Eliwood without mentioning Ninian, Hector and Lyn a lot.

Caein and etc. sound like provinces to me, but I can't recall what the game calls them. If all else fails, I think a more generic "territory" would work. I'll try and find out anyway, if I remember (knowing me, I'll probably forget, so feel free to bug me about this).

Finally, I forgot to clear up the issue of American/British English from before. I actually don't have a problem with the usage of either. Of course, it would be more consistent to use one and not the other, and since the main site uses British English heavily (since I'm British), British English would be recommended I guess. However, it's completely up to the author which to use.

Edited October 2, 2008 by VincentASM

[Wist]

"Where his compatriot Kent is cautious and tactful, Sain is dramatic and reckless."

Seems a little out of place. Perhaps it should be placed in the summary or have another sentence before it.

You're right, it doesn't fit very well there. Now that I think about it I'm not sure if that sentence is even needed, I think it's relatively clear from the rest of the writing that Sain is a dramatic person.

"(he tells Fiora that he memorized the name of every woman in the army)"

I think a "for instance" or similar phrase might be useful before this.

Sure, I can see how that would benefit the sentence. My only concern is that the sentence might not match well with, "but he comes across as too overtly mischievous for most women." "Overtly mischievous" sounds strange now that I look back it. Maybe the beginning of that paragraph should be rewritten.

"In his spare time, Sain tries to convince Priscilla that he requires her medical expertise for the seventh time"

"For the seventh time" doesn't seem to flow logically, since the sentence seems to start a new... "topic". Hopefully that made sense. If not, and regardless, I think it needs slightly more history/development to get to the "seventh time".

That makes sense. It's probably incorrect to use "in his spare time" anyways because the support conversation is done on the battlefield. Do you think it would work if I said something like, "Priscilla's experiences with Sain entail numerous [false or dubious, or another similar word] injuries he begs her to heal," or should I still involve more development if information is to be kept in the text?

Anyway, I thought it was a good read. I'd say it's pretty much ready to be added to the main site : o

I think it's alright to reference other characters, especially if they're crucial to the main character. For instance, it's going to be hard to write about Eliwood without mentioning Ninian, Hector and Lyn a lot.

Caein and etc. sound like provinces to me, but I can't recall what the game calls them. If all else fails, I think a more generic "territory" would work. I'll try and find out anyway, if I remember (knowing me, I'll probably forget, so feel free to bug me about this).

Ah, good call. I just did a search through the game script (assuming the game script on GameFAQs is accurate. There is no mention of the word province but Marcus once states: "Lord Eliwood, if this is true, the situation is a grave one. If Marquess Laus is readying for war... His target is most likely another Lycian territory. Perhaps this is connected to Lord Elbert's disappearance."

Finally, I forgot to clear up the issue of American/British English from before. I actually don't have a problem with the usage of either. Of course, it would be more consistent to use one and not the other, and since the main site uses British English heavily (since I'm British), British English would be recommended I guess. However, it's completely up to the author which to use.

I'll use British spellings then because I'm relatively familiar with them. I don't know all of the small grammatical nuances, but it's all the same language so hopefully I won't do anything that will trip someone up.

Thanks for your suggestions; it's your site so it's only natural you'd opt to contribute to quality control, but I'm still grateful. Unless someone else suggests more things to consider, I'll edit this post with an updated version of the bio when I next have some spare time (that may or may not be today, I don't know yet).

EDIT (2008.10.03):

Fixed an unremarkable inconsistency in the quotes.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Wist

[Solanum Tuberosum]

Also, "reluctant to forsake his heroic appearance by fighting with a sword instead of a lance."

Isn't it supposed to be that he used a lance instead of a sword? because I'm pretty sure swords are effective against bandits.

[Wist]

It means that he was reluctant to fight with a sword instead of a lance because doing so would make him appear less heroic, but I can see how that is a confusing sentence and should be changed. Thanks for bringing it up. I also don't think I like the 'quickly' in that sentence because it doesn't necessarily signify this even being an early occurrence.

Would something like this be a suitable replacement?: "Sain's overconfident nature is brought to light very soon after his introduction. In Chapter 1 he is reluctant to fight with a sword instead of a lance because he believes it will detract from [his self proclaimed heroic appearance]." I don't know if that's too long, but splitting it into two sentences seemed the easiest way to clarify the event without getting rid of any information. What I put in brackets would still need some work if used, but I have a test tomorrow morning I have to study for now.

[VincentASM]

Maybe you could add an adjective before "lance", eg. "knightly" to emphasise the correct order of reading? It might sound silly that way though, but it probably depends on the adjective used (knightly lance? o__o).

[Wist]

Okay, I believe I understand what you mean. I've included the entire paragraph below, with changes so that it makes more sense. The second sentence was a carryover from the first draft but I tried to incorporate it a little better this time. If it's still a bit quirky then we can work out an alternative. I just realized that Sain justified using a lance only because he allegedly forgot to buy a sword, so I'm included that. I don't know if the addition of 'subsequently' is helpful or not (I tried to convey a sense of immediacy).

Amended paragraph

As is often the case when Sain first meets a woman, his attempt to court Lady Lyndis in the city of Bulgar results in her dismissing him entirely. Despite this setback, Kent and Sain are quick to come to Lyn's aid when she is subsequently ambushed by bandits at the advent of Chapter 1. Sain's overconfident nature is brought to light immediately after the start of the battle. He claims it is more [knightly] to fight with a lance than a sword, but in truth he had neglected to buy a sword beforehand. Kent lends Sain one of his own swords and the initial members of Lyn's Mercenaries emerge from the ambush victorious.

Author's notes

I put 'knightly' in for now because it does work even though that's not it's normal definition. I thought of using 'exalted' but I don't know if that's correct or not. 'Honourable' and 'dignified' also came to mind, but I am even less sure of their suitability. 'Heroic' could be used, but I'm concerned that that would be plagiarism (because the the word in this context would have been taken directly from the game).

I don't like using phrases like 'in actuality' or 'in truth' so I'm open to any suggestions for restructuring what's been written in order to omit that.

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I'm going to have dinner right now so I won't amend the rest of the paragraphs just yet.

Edit (2008.10.08):

Hopefully I'll have another draft up by the end of tonight (that's what I'm aiming for at least).

Edit (2008.10.09):

Or not.... My report took longer to complete than I had anticipated. Today or tomorrow most likely (today's busy, it's 0:25 for me right now, I'm talking about Thursday, but I might not have a lot of work to do outside of class).

Edited October 9, 2008 by Wist

[Wist]

Here is the next version of the article on Sain. It lacks an ending, but otherwise I think it's much improved over the first drafts.

Article

Summary:

Sain is an overconfident but dedicated green-haired cavalier in the employ of Lycia’s House Caelin. He travels and fights alongside his close friend and fellow knight, Kent. Sain is overdramatic and known by all to be a prolific womaniser, but despite his theatrics he is unwavering in his duty as a knight of Caelin.

Bio:

As is often the case when Sain first meets a woman, his attempt to court Lady Lyndis in the Sacean city of Bulgar results in a quick dismissal. Despite this initial setback, Kent and Sain are quick to come to Lyn’s aid when she is subsequently ambushed by bandits at the advent of Chapter 1. Sain’s brash nature is brought to light immediately after the start of the battle. He claims it's more exalting to fight with a lance than a sword, but this was only an excuse for his having neglected to purchase a sword whilst in the city. Sain submits to Kent’s demand that he borrow a sword from him and the first three members of Lyn’s Mercenaries emerge victorious from the ambush.

While Sain presents himself audaciously, the thespian knight is resolute in his fealty towards Caelin. He provides relevant knowledge of Lycian lands, and accompanies Lady Lyndis as she gathers an army and ultimately claims her birthright from her deranged uncle, Lord Lundgren. After Lord Lundgren’s defeat, Sain is promoted to subcommander under Kent.

Sain is not mentioned in the story again under the chapter Noble Lady of Caelin. Sain, and the rest of Lyn’s Mercenaries who remained in Caelin, fight alongside Eliwood’s army to recover the besieged territory. He remains with Eliwood’s army for the remainder of the story, opening the way for many entertaining support conversations.

Sain combines his incomparable mannerisms with a formal speech register to humourous effect, but his indiscriminate pursuit of all women makes him a suspicious conversation partner. Serra is unafraid to vocalise her observation that Sain flirts with every woman he comes across, and Rebecca recalls Lady Lyndis having noted that same behavior. Priscilla’s experiences with the jocose knight involve a number of dubious injuries he begs her to heal, and Fiora is let privy to the fact that Sain has memorised the name of every woman in the army. Sain is definitely memorable as a peculiar amalgamation of duty and womanising.

Sain is scarcely referenced after his assimilation into Eliwood’s army, but the epilogue states that Sain retains his knightly obligations after Nergal’s defeat. He remains in Caelin until Lady Lyndis abdicates her rule to House Ostia. If Sain remains unpaired by the end of the story, he opts to become an independent knight after Caelin’s dissolution. If he is paired Fiora or Rebecca, he instead chooses to marry after Ostia accepts command of Caelin.

Author's notes

As I stated before, this article lacks an ending. I'm stuck on figuring out how to conclude the piece but hopefully someone here can propose an ending or at least some ideas to think about. I suppose, the same as before, please make note of anything confusing, odd, or inaccurate.

Edit (2008.10.11):

Made some corrections as suggested by VincentASM in post #10.

Edit (2008.10.11):

Edited a sentence as suggest by Meteor in post #11.

Edit (2008.10.28):

Edited a sentence as suggested by VincentASM in post #16

Edited October 29, 2008 by Wist

[VincentASM]

Sain is overdramatic and known by all a prolific womaniser

I think it would be better to keep the "to be" in "known by all (to be) a...", or perhaps change it to "known by all (as) a...". It looks like it's lacking a few words otherwise.

He claims it more exalting to fight with a lance than a sword

Not too sure about this, but how about changing it to "claims it (is) more exalting"? I think it makes sense as is though.

and the first three members of Lyn’s Mercenaries emerge from the ambush victorious

Maybe swap the words around at the end to "...emerge victorious from the ambush", since it looks a little busy.

he opts to become an independent knight after Caelin’s being adopted results in his release

"Caelin's being adopted" sounds a little odd. Was Caelin dissolved after the war, or was it just taken in by Ostia's rule? I can't quite remember ^^;;;

[Wist]

"Sain is overdramatic and known by all a prolific womaniser"

I think it would be better to keep the "to be" in "known by all (to be) a...", or perhaps change it to "known by all (as) a...". It looks like it's lacking a few words otherwise.

Okay, that makes sense.

"He claims it more exalting to fight with a lance than a sword"

Not too sure about this, but how about changing it to "claims it (is) more exalting"? I think it makes sense as is though.

That was an error on my part, good catch.

"and the first three members of Lyn’s Mercenaries emerge from the ambush victorious"

Maybe swap the words around at the end to "...emerge victorious from the ambush", since it looks a little busy.

That makes sense as well. I'll make the first three changes you noted right now.

"he opts to become an independent knight after Caelin’s being adopted results in his release"

"Caelin's being adopted" sounds a little odd. Was Caelin dissolved after the war, or was it just taken in by Ostia's rule? I can't quite remember ^^;;;

Yeah, I had trouble with that one. I didn't want to repeat the wording of the previous sentence but I wanted to specify that the event happened only after Ostia took over Caelin; sometime after the war(I thought it was a year but I haven't been able to confirm it), Lyn chose to give up Caelin to Ostian rule in order to return to Sacae.

How do you think the following two sentence should best be rewritten, I'm not sure how to do it an a way that doesn't sound strange: "He remains in Caelin until Lady Lyndis abdicates her rule to House Ostia. If Sain remains unpaired by the end of the story, he opts to become an independent knight after Caelin’s being adopted results in his release."

[Meteor]

Why not simply, "he opts to become an independent knight after Caelin’s dissolution."

[Wist]

Hey, that's a great way of expressing it; thanks Meteror! I'll edit that in right now. Unless someone else notices something else quirky or confusing, that thing I think this piece most needs now is a decent conclusion.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Wist

[VincentASM]

Almost forgot to reply to this : o

I think the article's current ending is fine. I can understand what you mean by wanting a more impacting or concluding ending, but I think it's okay for articles to have a neutral ending like this.

[Wist]

What about the first paragraph of the bio section? I looked over it again recently and I'm not sure if it opens as clearly as it should. I think I might experiment with rewording or reorganizing the first couple of sentences (once I finish the Ilyana article I'm about halfway through right now) to see if I can make it sound better.

Edit(2008.10.24):

I nearly forgot to mention that I also found that the phrase "numerous dubious" sounds strange so I'll change that as well.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Wist

[VincentASM]

I think the bio starts fine. If you wanted, you could, instead, start with why they went to Bulgar and then go onto how they met Lyn.

"Numerous dubious" could probably be replaced with "a number of dubious".

[Wist]

Hopefully this introduction is more clear:

"The player’s first experience with Sain involves¹ watching him make failed advances towards Lady Lyndis at the advent of Chapter 1. Kent and Sain were in the Sacean city of Bulgar in search of Marquis Caelin’s granddaughter. Kent soon realizes that the girl² Sain had been trying to court was the target³ of their mission, and they rush after her in time to help her defend against an ambush. Sain’s brash nature is brought to light at the start of the battle. He claims it's more exalting to fight with a lance than a sword, but this is only an excuse for his having neglected to purchase a sword whilst in the city. Kent convinces Sain to borrow one of his swords and the first three members of Lyn’s Mercenaries proceed to a quick victory."

1) "Involves" doesn't sound like it fits well, is there a better word or a better way of phrasing that part fo the sentence in general?

2) Is it okay to refer to Lyn as a girl? I wasn't sure whether it would be better to refer to her as a girl or a woman.

3) I know that "target" is the wrong word, I was just at a loss trying to think of what would fit best.

In accordance with your suggestion I changed "numerous dubious" to "a number of dubious" in post #9.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Wist

[bunny: spider bitten]

Can I ask what exactly this is for? I suppose I don't pay enough attention.

[Wist]

Certainly. This is for a story focused article section, it's best explained in the opening post of this thread. I'm under the impression that the more people contribute, the greater the chance that a story related article section will be implemented. If you'd like to write an article then you can claim a character, event, or some other story element here. Even if some people are only up to contributing some revisions or corrections of other peoples' article, it will be of help.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Wist

[VincentASM]

1) "Involves" doesn't sound like it fits well, is there a better word or a better way of phrasing that part fo the sentence in general?

I think "involves" is alright, but the sentence that it's part of sounds a bit... out-of-universe compared to the rest of the article. At least I think so anyway ^^;;;

2) Is it okay to refer to Lyn as a girl? I wasn't sure whether it would be better to refer to her as a girl or a woman.

I think "girl" is alright. She's supposed to be 15 or something in the Japanese version, and 18 canonically in the English version.

3) I know that "target" is the wrong word, I was just at a loss trying to think of what would fit best.

I can't think of a good word either. Is "focus" any better? I'd probably need a bit of time to think of a better word XD

[Wist]

1) "Involves" doesn't sound like it fits well, is there a better word or a better way of phrasing that part fo the sentence in general?

I think "involves" is alright, but the sentence that it's part of sounds a bit... out-of-universe compared to the rest of the article. At least I think so anyway ^^;;;

Okay, that's a good observation to have noted. I'll rewrite the sentence in the hope of making it fit better.

2) Is it okay to refer to Lyn as a girl? I wasn't sure whether it would be better to refer to her as a girl or a woman.

I think "girl" is alright. She's supposed to be 15 or something in the Japanese version, and 18 canonically in the English version.

I'll keep it as "girl" then.

3) I know that "target" is the wrong word, I was just at a loss trying to think of what would fit best.

I can't think of a good word either. Is "focus" any better? I'd probably need a bit of time to think of a better word XD

I'll keep my mind on this one as well, haha. Edited October 29, 2008 by Wist

[Wist]

I rewrote part of the first paragraph and fixed a couple of minor errors throughout the rest of the article. I don't know if the introduction sounds much better or not, the second sentence is of particular concern because it's a bit long. Tell me what you think.

Summary

Sain is an overconfident but dedicated green-haired cavalier in the employ of Lycia’s House Caelin. He travels and fights alongside his close friend and fellow knight, Kent. Sain is overdramatic and known by all to be a prolific womaniser, but despite his theatrics he is unwavering in his duty as a knight of Caelin.

Bio

Sain is first seen at the advent of Chapter 1 in the Sacean city, Bulgar, trying to flatter Lady Lyndis. She takes her leave in disgust, but not before Sain’s comrade, Kent, realizes that the girl is the same person whom the two are searching for, Marquis Caelin’s granddaughter. They chase after her in time to help her defend against an ambush. Sain’s brash nature is immediately brought to light at the start of the battle. He claims it's more exalting to fight with a lance than a sword, but this is only an excuse for his having neglected to purchase a sword whilst in the city. Kent convinces Sain to borrow one of his swords and the first three members of Lyn’s Mercenaries proceed to a quick victory.

While Sain presents himself audaciously, the thespian knight is resolute in his fealty towards Caelin. He provides relevant knowledge of Lycian lands, and continues to aid Lyndis as she gathers an army and ultimately claims her birthright from her deranged uncle, Lord Lundgren. After Lundgren’s defeat, Sain is promoted to subcommander under Kent.

Sain is not again mentioned in the story until the chapter Noble Lady of Caelin. Sain, and the rest of Lyn’s Mercenaries who remained in Caelin, fight alongside Eliwood’s army to recover the besieged territory. He remains with Eliwood’s army for the remainder of the story, opening the way for many entertaining support conversations.

Sain combines his incomparable mannerisms with a formal speech register to humourous effect, but his indiscriminate pursuit of all women makes him a suspicious conversation partner. Serra is unafraid to vocalise her observation that Sain flirts with every woman he comes across, and Rebecca recalls Lady Lyndis having noted that same behavior. Priscilla’s experiences with the jocose knight involve a number of dubious injuries he begs her to heal, and Fiora is let privy to the fact that Sain has memorised the name of every woman in the army. Sain is definitely memorable as a peculiar amalgamation of duty and womanising.

Sain is scarcely referenced after his assimilation into Eliwood’s army, but the epilogue states that Sain retains his knightly obligations after Nergal’s defeat. He remains in Caelin until Lady Lyndis abdicates her rule to House Ostia. If Sain remains unpaired by the end of the story, he opts to become an independent knight after Caelin’s dissolution. If he is paired Fiora or Rebecca, he instead chooses to marry after Ostia accepts command of Caelin.

[VincentASM]

I think it starts off much better now ^^

trying to flatter Lady Lyndis

I actually kind of liked the "failed advance" mention in the previous versions. Anyway, I think some like "making an advance of Lady Lyndis" might work a bit better here.

She takes her leave in disgust

Not sure if it's just me, but that statement sounds more... impacting than the scene its describing ^^;;;

and the first three members of Lyn’s Mercenaries

Since the group hasn't formed at that point in time, maybe you could shorten that to just "and the three".

I'll probably take another look tomorrow since it's getting late now.