Unit Practicality Thread

[Respite&Nepenthe]

I was looking over my pairings, and my leftovers were Felicia and Kaden (which seems rather redundant to me). Is Kinu worth re-determing my parents to provide a more optimal mother, or should I just leave it as-is and focus on greater children? I hadn't heard anything about her combat applicability one way or another...and as for Felicia and Kaden, would this render them useless?

[Wayward Alchemist]

It's actually not that bad. Kaden gets Merc and Felicia gets Diviner, which is pretty awesome for her. Kinu's Magic isn't that bad, actually. She winds up getting a 30% growth, 45% with Spellcaster. Her strength is about 27%, so if she gets Strength blessed she could wind up going mixed as a Maid or Basara. Her Spd is pretty great. She gets Tomefaire, Sol from inheritance from Felicia or Kaden, Flamboyant, Even Nap for more healing, and a Poison skill (Four Fangs) alongside her personal. Weird, but not bad.

[XeKr]

Apologies if this is off-topic (or has been discussed before, given the 28 pages), but how is Saizo/Setsuna in terms of practicality? I know Ninja gives boosts in Spd & Res, but Saizo's personal growths in those look rather low... so if you have Setsuna further backing up his Spd & Res, does it help him be a really well-rounded Ninja? They're recruited only one chapter apart, so I'd figure it's pretty easy to increase their supports.

I've heard they're both rather mediocre units in Birthright, though, so is it better to simply leave them out of your team entirely?

As others mentioned, Ninja class has high Spd and Shurikens give +2 so after a few levels Saizou is fine. Setsuna needs to be babied until level 10 for her to do respectable damage but after that she can probably kill something every player phase.

Most people probably give their character assessments relative to Corrin/Ryoma/Reina/etc, but I don’t think Birthright (even Lunatic) is so hard that you’ll encounter significant difficulties if you do want to train some others.

I was looking over my pairings, and my leftovers were Felicia and Kaden (which seems rather redundant to me). Is Kinu worth re-determing my parents to provide a more optimal mother, or should I just leave it as-is and focus on greater children? I hadn't heard anything about her combat applicability one way or another...and as for Felicia and Kaden, would this render them useless?

The thing with Kinu in the maingame is she has relatively low Hp/Str/Def and is a frontline unit. She also shares Weapon Rank with Kaden, but has arguably worse stats, which makes her outclassed. I found this to be the case even with Hinoka!Kinu once, which is some of the highest growth inheritance she can get. Felicia doesn’t help the stat issue. Skill inheritance isn’t really enough.

Maybe Kinu can do a mage build, particularly if Felicia is the mother, though she’ll start with E spells and is a fairly generic mage. Horse God makes all mages somewhat useful though. :p

Probably so, which is why I like +Spd atm. Though they could also be expected (on average) to survive some situations other assets may not, improving flexibility/reliability later.

And given some recent ltc trends…?

And to add: I have to review a bit more, but I think +Hp/Def improve reliability as early as the C2 3-4 turn and C3 5-6 turn. Though maybe others are using more optimized strats.

Other random sleep-deprived delirious thoughts. Is it demonstrably better to invest more in Jakob instead of Corrin early on? GK/Paladin!Jakob seems to have some argument against reclassed!Corrin for a while.

Tbh I have no idea. >_>

Also considering how (iirc) Lunatic works, I suppose technically each player only needs 1 file where RNG is favorable (for at least Corrin) and can then keep playing that file, but I dunno how “lame/cheesy” that is for ltc/speedruns.

Edited February 13, 2016 by XeKr

[Espinosa]

Is Dwyer better off as a Staffbot with wonky growths or is it worth suffering through E weapon ranks to get a stronk Dwyer?

Who the fuck is Dwyer lol

If you recruit him later, child sealing should get him good tome rank. An early mounted staffbot with okay stats isn't too bad either, and having a stronger Dwyer will give you better luck with status staves mainly in Conquest and Revelation.

And to add: I have to review a bit more, but I think +Hp/Def improve reliability as early as the C2 3-4 turn and C3 5-6 turn. Though maybe others are using more optimized strats.

Other random sleep-deprived delirious thoughts. Is it demonstrably better to invest more in Jakob instead of Corrin early on? GK/Paladin!Jakob seems to have some argument against reclassed!Corrin for a while.

Tbh I have no idea. >_>

Also considering how (iirc) Lunatic works, I suppose technically each player only needs 1 file where RNG is favorable (for at least Corrin) and can then keep playing that file, but I dunno how “lame/cheesy” that is for ltc/speedruns.

Reliability is a weird concept in that context. Do you mean having +1 def allows MU to not die in maps like chapter 3-4? It does, but if you can double everybody with a Kaze pairup in C4, then you have an even better time. HM LTC basically needs to rig all the early levelups (I imagine this is painful if you want both str AND mag, not to mention spd and raw durability) for the lowest turn counts, while Lunatic LTC will likely sacrifice a few turns because it's nigh-impossible to obtain minimum TCs without rigging (such as a crit on C4's double seal boss to enable further navigation of the map). You do save one turn on Xander with a +hp/def MU though; the rest isn't set in stone and is subject to your luck and decisions made (the latter is the optimistic and interesting part).

Also, C2 is an easy 3-turn, and is actually made harder if your MU is too bulky. Jakob will be attacked more and has existing chances of death, and you want him to have just enough health to counter enemies on the second to last turn since he's the only one in the party with debuffs and 1-2 range to soften as many enemies as possible for the last turn's rout. C3 should be an easy 5-turn, 4 if rigging a Corin/Gunter crit on the boss, but I personally have trouble even 5-turning if Jakob is still at base strength when he counters the myrm on EP.

MU needs two seals to become an 8 mov unit; Jakob only needs one. Jakob also levels up faster when reclassed to the destination job, while an early-promoted MU has his level-up speed limited. You certainly want to use both wisely for the most optimal results, and MU has more time to train in Birthright where the gap between the first two seals is wider. MU offers more choices than Jakob though, so he's more exciting on more casual runs.

Jakob is definitely misused if he's only MU's pair-up fodder for +3 def/+15 avo; that's like playing FE8 with an unequipped Seth in order to feed Neimi some kills.

Character growths aren't decided upon starting a file for non-MU characters, meaning you can keep restarting C7 Nohr until you get a Silas with desirable growths for example. Most likely, the needs of mix-maxers (who can grind levels, money and stats in DLC) and LTCers (who aren't numerous enough for tools to be developed specifically for their interests) can be met if we discover how/when to start a file to manipulate the best growths, but I foresee somebody could develop a tool for looking up each character's future growths on Lunatic files as that has more appeal to a wider range of players with different playstyles.

[Wayward Alchemist]

I'm pretty sure that their marriage gets Felicia Diviner, which might be good for her. Also Kaden gets Merc, for what that's worth. Kinu gets the shaft, yes, but her Magic growth isn't terrible at 30%, only 5 less than Felicia's, and with Spellcaster's 15% it gets to a respectable 45%. Her Spd growth is pretty good at 40%. Her Res will be pretty awesome at . Also, her Str growth is 40%, so she could make a good Basara, too. Alternatively she could go Maid for Hidden Weapons and later the Explosive Shuriken.

E: Also regarding Dwyer what if he is the product of a +Str -Mag Corrin? He could be a good Cavalier, but he won't inherit Ninja (Corrin's class) unfortunately. Ninja inheritance would be convenient because he could Child Seal to Butler for a good Kunai rank and then Second Seal to Elite Ninja, but alas.

E2: Yeah, Kaden would get Rod Knight. Damn, that sucks for him.

Edited February 13, 2016 by JothTheConqueror

[Pokechu]

It's actually not that bad. Kaden gets Merc and Felicia gets Diviner, which is pretty awesome for her. Kinu's Magic isn't that bad, actually. She winds up getting a 30% growth, 45% with Spellcaster. Her strength is about 27%, so if she gets Strength blessed she could wind up going mixed as a Maid or Basara. Her Spd is pretty great. She gets Tomefaire, Sol from inheritance from Felicia or Kaden, Flamboyant, Even Nap for more healing, and a Poison skill (Four Fangs) alongside her personal. Weird, but not bad.

Kaden would get Rod Knight, wouldn't he?

[Ownagepuffs]

Other random sleep-deprived delirious thoughts. Is it demonstrably better to invest more in Jakob instead of Corrin early on? GK/Paladin!Jakob seems to have some argument against reclassed!Corrin for a while.

Decided to do calcs and shit with averages.

tl;dr There's nothing that Jakob is doing that you don't get out of Cavalier Kamui, unless you intend to lose sleep over 1 mov.

[Espinosa]

You could also not lose sleep over Kamui's 5 mov and keep him a Nohr Prince (or whatever it's going to be called) for a couple more maps. The motivation for going cav is mobility after all, and Dragonstone is arguably more useful than a Bronze Lance or something. He'll know Dragon Fang in his new class, too, which obviously won't hurt even if he's ready to 1RKO everything.

[Azz]

What's a practical build for M!Corrin and Niles pairing? Niles is also going to capturing (Albeit, only the bosses).

Edited February 13, 2016 by Azz

[Eriotto]

What's a practical build for M!Corrin and Niles pairing? Niles is also going to capturing (Albeit, only the bosses).

first of, do you want mini-max? This does matter as well.

[Azz]

first of, do you want mini-max? This does matter as well.

Not for this playthrough. This one is purely in-game.

[Espinosa]

MU can pass Archer to Niles for much better hit rates (Niles actually cares about that btw, even whiffing at WTA with most accurate bows sometimes), damage and crit capacity.

How will he reclass into Sniper btw, through a Marriage Seal? Also, can Niles choose to A+ rank Male MU instead or is it romance or nothing for these two regardless of MU's gender?

[Eriotto]

Not for this playthrough. This one is purely in-game.

So you want stay as adventurer/bow knight.

From what Zero would benefit, bowman maybe? Presitant victory +bowfaire seems good, however in nohr i have no idea if you'll have enough exp to get bowfaire actually.

about asset/flaw, dunno +str-luck maybe?

[Ownagepuffs]

You could also not lose sleep over Kamui's 5 mov and keep him a Nohr Prince (or whatever it's going to be called) for a couple more maps. The motivation for going cav is mobility after all, and Dragonstone is arguably more useful than a Bronze Lance or something. He'll know Dragon Fang in his new class, too, which obviously won't hurt even if he's ready to 1RKO everything.

Sure, but the argument here was if Jakob more worthy of training in the prologue than Kamui. My rebuttal is unless the difference between 7 mov and 8 mov is enough to make you lose sleep, then Kamui easily replicates Jakob's early game while still being incredibly powerful for mid and late game. They aren't comparable.

[Espinosa]

Sure, but the argument here was if Jakob more worthy of training in the prologue than Kamui. My rebuttal is unless the difference between 7 mov and 8 mov is enough to make you lose sleep, then Kamui easily replicates Jakob's early game while still being incredibly powerful for mid and late game. They aren't comparable.

Kamui needs the Prologue levelling to be comparable to Jakob in strength, while Jakob can make a mean promoted cav even if he's given a seal at base level (or more realistically, if his first level-ups suck). Jakob also remains highly potent for the rest of the game(-s). There's no question that both ought to be used; I'm just saying that pair-up fodder!Jakob is criminally misusing Jakob.

[XeKr]

Reliability is a weird concept in that context. Do you mean having +1 def allows MU to not die in maps like chapter 3-4? It does, but if you can double everybody with a Kaze pairup in C4, then you have an even better time. HM LTC basically needs to rig all the early levelups (I imagine this is painful if you want both str AND mag, not to mention spd and raw durability) for the lowest turn counts, while Lunatic LTC will likely sacrifice a few turns because it's nigh-impossible to obtain minimum TCs without rigging (such as a crit on C4's double seal boss to enable further navigation of the map). You do save one turn on Xander with a +hp/def MU though; the rest isn't set in stone and is subject to your luck and decisions made (the latter is the optimistic and interesting part).

Also, C2 is an easy 3-turn, and is actually made harder if your MU is too bulky. Jakob will be attacked more and has existing chances of death, and you want him to have just enough health to counter enemies on the second to last turn since he's the only one in the party with debuffs and 1-2 range to soften as many enemies as possible for the last turn's rout. C3 should be an easy 5-turn, 4 if rigging a Corin/Gunter crit on the boss, but I personally have trouble even 5-turning if Jakob is still at base strength when he counters the myrm on EP.

MU needs two seals to become an 8 mov unit; Jakob only needs one. Jakob also levels up faster when reclassed to the destination job, while an early-promoted MU has his level-up speed limited. You certainly want to use both wisely for the most optimal results, and MU has more time to train in Birthright where the gap between the first two seals is wider. MU offers more choices than Jakob though, so he's more exciting on more casual runs.

Jakob is definitely misused if he's only MU's pair-up fodder for +3 def/+15 avo; that's like playing FE8 with an unequipped Seth in order to feed Neimi some kills.

For C2, I ran through it fairly casually in 4 turns recently with +Spd and realized I didn’t know how I 3 turned it before. So I thought that +Hp that I used before helped the strat somehow. But again I didn’t try that hard so perhaps my positioning was just suboptimal.

I think you’re right on C3. I originally thought the boss strat was to let Corrin/Gunter fight on PP, EP, PP, needing to hit 2 of 3, then seize with Jakob. iirc Dragon Vein can’t be triggered until turn 3 and there’s still the bridge, that’s a 6 turn strat (if that works). I think the 5 turn strat is Gunter attacks, Jakob attacks with Gunter in astance, then Corrin seizes for the minimum? In my mind, these strats are probably similar in efficiency given the hit rates and chance of success. The latter is also a near-definite reset if whiffing either attack, while the former has some leeway and can retreat if really necessary (if particularly reset-averse).

btw does +Spd survive the C4 DV near the boss consistently? It did on my latest run, in 1 try, but I skipped a lot of animations. <_<

And Neimi isn’t the best 1-2 range one-rounder in the game. And certainly not one of few with godtier durability.

Decided to do calcs and shit with averages.

tl;dr There's nothing that Jakob is doing that you don't get out of Cavalier Kamui, unless you intend to lose sleep over 1 mov.

Interesting analysis. My thought here are that Paladin!Jakob and base class!Corrin gives you 2 good combat units, with 8 and 5 move. Cav!Corrin gives you 1 good 7 move unit and a debuffer/staffbot.

Edited February 13, 2016 by XeKr

[Espinosa]

When the DV is triggered, Gunter and Jakob cross the bridge and start slaying enemies on the same turn. On HM, there is a high likelihood of both the enemies dying by the time turn 4 is over. On Lunatic, somebody might want to KO the archer straggler in a 5-turn strat. 6-turning is not an accomplishment for such an easy map at all, as the stat benchmark requirements and the reliability are both fairly meek as far as efficiency is concerned. The boss might make ironmanning the map efficiently difficult, but he's not the only one by any means, and that's a topic for another discussion entirely.

In a 5-turn strat, anyone can kill the boss really. Gunter may want to do the EP tanking, but if you're keen on emerging with the strongest MU you will want Kamui to do everything.

Surviving the C4 DV isn't guaranteed to any build. If you're rigging levelups compulsively, the fact that your asset gave you +1 def at base will be forgotten very soon, though in itself having an extra point of def could well be the difference between a dead MU and a living one, and not only on that particular turn. You most probably want Kaze and not Rinkah as a pair-up partner to double the nosferatu mooks even with a +spd asset and full spd levelups by that point.

Hey, Neimi is helpful in Girls Only LTC! The reference is still applicable.

[Ownagepuffs]

Kamui needs the Prologue levelling to be comparable to Jakob in strength, while Jakob can make a mean promoted cav even if he's given a seal at base level (or more realistically, if his first level-ups suck). Jakob also remains highly potent for the rest of the game(-s). There's no question that both ought to be used; I'm just saying that pair-up fodder!Jakob is criminally misusing Jakob.

"Needs the prologue levelling to be comparable"

Instant seal Jakob has 12 Str/8 Spd. 17 Atk with a Bronze Lance.

Base +Str Kamui has 9 Strength. 17 Atk with Yato. +Str Cav Kamui's Str growth is 25% higher than Jakob's as a Paladin. They have the same Spd growth, but base +Str/-Mag Kamui's speed is 2 points less. Kamui has an extra chapter (C4), a bosskill (C5), and a +20% exp skill over Jakob so Kamui grows faster than Jakob at equivalent levels. They are extremely comprable, even at base levels. There is literally like no reason to train Jakob over Kamui in the prologue.

[Espinosa]

I agree with you there if I haven't made it apparent before; I also focus on raising MU in the prologue. Great Knight Jakob outclasses MU pretty badly in terms of strength (even if bronze weapons) and bulk, though +mag MU with a Dragonstone is comparable in both roles, especially if Jakob is paired-up with him. GK Jakob is more than worthy of being considered if we're in that situation where sleep is not lost over a point of movement.

And the team certainly benefits from reclassed Jakob + Prince MU more than it does from a cav (or anything else) MU + Butt-ler Jakob.

I will admit Jakob struggles to compete with MU for the title of the game's best unit, but Jakob's role under more sleep-deprived conditions cannot be overstated.

[Wayward Alchemist]

Reposting this because I just edited it into another post:

If Dwyer is the product of a +Str -Mag Corrin, would Cavalier be to slow? His mother is a Elite Ninja and so Kanna will be, too, so they won't have this problem, but Dwyer doesn't inherit Ninja... This is in Hoshido so I suppose he could A+ Asugi for Ninja but that seems too time consuming. However he could just marry/be besties with someone who gives some Spd.

[Ebony]

MU + Butt-ler Jakob.

okay but lets pretend totally hypothetically theres this one person who wants jakob to end back up as a butler...

[Eriotto]

okay but lets pretend totally hypothetically theres this one person who wants jakob to end back up as a butler...

Well no everyone want to make him GK tho

Edited February 13, 2016 by Eriotto

[Ebony]

Well no everyone want to make him GK tho

...

I want him to be a butler in less stealthy ways then what I said :T

[Shadow Mir]

Well no everyone want to make him GK tho

I'd imagine that having to deal with 3 E ranks would sting quite a bit, though...

-Skl sounds like it would be pretty bad for awhile making a lot of hit rates shaky(probably wouldn't even get past chapter 3). -Mag is recommended if going a full physical unit since it doesn't really hurt the important growths(aside from a -5% to Spd), and then -Luck is usually recommended for most builds since its effects are fairly minor and can be patched up instantly with the chapter 4 Goddess Icon.

How many Goddess Icons are in Birthright and Revelation? I remember seeing something to the point of Conquest giving you 3 of them early... Anyways, discounting Goddess Icons, I'd imagine -Luck would have you routinely facing crit chances unless you glued crit evade boosting weapons to Corrin constantly...

Edited February 13, 2016 by Levant Colthearts

[Eriotto]

I'd imagine that having to deal with 3 E ranks would sting quite a bit, though...

How many Goddess Icons are in Birthright and Revelation? I remember seeing something to the point of Conquest giving you 3 of them early... Anyways, discounting Goddess Icons, I'd imagine -Luck would have you routinely facing crit chances unless you glued crit evade granting weapons to Corrin constantly...

Well i've seen couple of times Famui Cav with Jakob married and promoting him to GK for bonuses.

Let's be honest there he's one of best party-up fodders for Kamui, GK gives creazy bonuses for her as well.