Draft rules for non-standard modes

[Gradivus.]

This is basically an extension of the generic rulesets and is going to include modes and versions of the games that aren't listed there and may or may not contain discussion about them. It's fairly incomplete as of now and will be worked on as time progresses. The format and function of these rulesets are similar to the generic ones - they work out on their own, but always feel free to make tweaks to them!

So far, this thread features:

- Higher difficulties (more precisely, highest difficulty, as intermediate difficulties like FE11 H3 work well with a ruleset very similar to the standard one)

- Reverse Recruitment

- Randomizer

Higher difficulties:

[spoiler=FE6, Hard mode]Drafting:
1. This draft is for 5 players.
2. Roy, Marcus, Merlinus, Lalum/Elphin, and Fa are free for all to use.
3. Three units will remain undrafted.
4. The game will be played on Hard Mode.

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories, and dig up items in the desert.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, and opening Doors or Chests.
3. Use of the Warp staff is banned.
4. All Gaiden chapters are required to be visited and count towards the total turncount. Chapter 20x (either route) does not count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken.
5. NPCs may do as they please without penalty.
6. The game must be played out to the True Ending.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty per unit, per chapter.

Exceptions:
1. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Promotion items.

2. Rutger is free up to chapter 9.

3. Zealot is free for chapter 7. Treck is free to get attacked in chapter 7.

Teams:
(names go here)

[spoiler=units remaining]Alan
Lance
Wolt
Bors
Ellen
Dieck
Ward
Lot
Thany
Chad
Lugh
Clarine
Rutger
Saul
Dorothy
Sue
Zealot
Treck
Noah
Astohl
Lilina
Wendy
Barth
Oujay
Fir
Shin
Gonzales
Geese
Klein
Tate
Echidna
Bartre
Ray
Cath
Miredy
Percival
Cecilia
Sophia
Igrene
Garret
Hugh
Zeis
Douglas
Niime
Juno
Dayan
Yodel
Karel

[spoiler=FE11, Hard 5]Drafting:
1. This draft is for 4 players.
2. Generics will be drafted at the same time as character units. (21 units will remain undrafted.)
3. Marth, Jagen, Wrys, Rickard, Jake, Beck and Gotoh/Nagi are free for everyone.
4. Each player may pick one of Jake and Beck seperately from the drafting phase.
5. Caeda / Shiida is free for use until Chapter 12x and counts as undrafted for everyone later.
6. The game will be played on Hard 5.

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may: buy or sell things, visit houses, meatshield, recruit units, trade and use map saves.
2. Forging is allowed up to +3 Mt, +15 Hit, +9 Crt and -3 Wt.
3. Gaidens are optional and not counted for the final turncount up to 20 turns, with penalties being counted seperately.
4. The Warp staff and the online shop are strictly banned.
5. Totally unreliable earlygame bosskills are fair game.

Extra:
1. Chapter 19 must not be cleared before turn 5.
2. Ogma is allowed to attack the bosses of chapters 2 and 3.

3. One undrafted unit is free for chapter 1.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units doing anything not allowed by the rules results in a 4-turn penalty, per unit per chapter.

Teams:

(names go here)

[spoiler=units remaining]Cain
Abel
Caeda
Gordin
Draug
Wrys
Ogma
Bord
Cord
Barst
Castor
Darros
Julian
Lena
Navarre
Merric
Matthis
Hardin
Sedgar
Wolf
Roshea
Vyland
Wendell
Athena
Bantu
Caesar
Radd
Roger
Jeorge
Maria
Minerva
Linde
Midia
Dolph
Macellan
Tomas
Boah
Horace
Astram
Palla
Catria
Arran
Samson
Etzel
Est
Tiki
Lorenz
Ymir
Elice

[spoiler=FE12, Hard 3]Drafting:
1. This draft is for 4 players.
2. Marth, MyUnit, Arran, Malicia, Palla, Xane and Feena are free for all. MyUnit may not start as a Cavalier or Knight.
3. The game will be played on Hard 3 / Lunatic.
4. Julian and Rickard are free if you're willing to gimp your turncount.

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, visit houses, trade, pick up hidden items and shop.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, opening chests/doors and activating supports.
3. All characters are free for Prologue chapters. Prologue chapters do not count towards your total turncount.
4. You are free to reclass undrafted units to whatever you want.
5. All sidequest chapters must be visited and count towards your total turncount.
6. The game must be played out to the True Ending.

Other:
1. Growth Drop, Bond Drop, Forging and Lunatic Statboosters are allowed with no restrictions. Rainbow Potion is banned.
2. Male Class Set Combination is allowed.
3. Use of the Drill Grounds is allowed.
4. How's Everyone is banned.
5. MyUnit may not receive Angelic Robes or Dracoshields from the base shop.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 2-turn penalty, per unit per chapter.

Exceptions:
1. Yubello, Yumina, Ogma and Sirius are free for Chapter 4.
2. Navarre is free for Chapter 7.
3. Merric is free for Chapter 10.
4. Midia is free to get attacked in Chapter 20.
5. Nyna, Maria, Lena and Elice are free for Endgame.

Teams:

(names go here)

[spoiler=units remaining]Luke
Rody
Cecille
Gordin
Ryan
Draug
Malicia
Catria
Warren
Cord
Linde
Bord
Matthis
Wrys
Ogma
Yumina
Yubello
Sirius
Castor
Caeda
Barst
Frey
Norne
Samto
Wendell
Caesar
Radd
Navarre
Cain
Bantu
Roger
Jeorge
Minerva
Etzel
Merric
Elrean
Dice
Maris
Horace
Jake
Darros
Robert
Belf
Leiden
Beck
Athena
Tiki
Est
Dolph
Abel
Macellan
Astram
Katarina
Tomas
Sheema
Samson
Frost
Roshea
Vyland
Sedgar
Wolf
Midia
Ymir
Michalis
Nagi

Randomizer:

[spoiler=FE6 randomized, Normal mode]Drafting:
1. This draft is for 5 players.
2. Roy, Marcus and Merlinus are free for all to use.
3. One undrafted Dancer / Bard is free to use for each player.
4. One unit will remain undrafted.
5. The game will be played on Normal Mode.

6. The universal GBA randomizer will be used: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55809
7. During the drafting phase, each unit may only be picked once. The changelogs may remain private, but should be kept so the players can make their picks based on it (format: class + unit name).

Randomizer options:


Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories, and dig up items in the desert.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, and opening Doors or Chests.
3. Use of the Warp staff is banned.
4. All Gaiden chapters are required to be visited. Chapter 20x (either route) does not count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken.
5. NPCs may do as they please without penalty.
6. The game must be played out to the True Ending.
7. Dancers / Bards may not dance for each other.
8. If you promote Roy, you are free to hack his auto-demotion after chapter 21x away.
9. Glitches caused by the randomizer may not be made use of. These include non-Roy Lords being able to seize and the possibility of moving units on tiles they cannot normally pass by using the drop command or a Rescue staff.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 4-turn penalty, per unit per chapter.
2. Dancers / Bards dancing for each other has a 15-turn penalty, per chapter.

Exceptions:
1. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary promotion items.

Teams:

(names go here)

[spoiler=Units remaining]Alan
Lance
Wolt
Bors
Ellen
Dieck
Ward
Lot
Thany
Chad
Lugh
Clarine
Rutger
Saul
Dorothy
Sue
Zealot
Treck
Noah
Astohl
Lilina
Wendy
Barth
Oujay
Fir
Shin
Gonzales
Geese
Klein
Tate

Lalum
Echidna

Elphin
Bartre
Ray
Cath
Miredy
Percival
Cecilia
Sophia
Igrene
Garret

Fa
Hugh
Zeis
Douglas
Niime
Juno
Dayan
Yodel
Karel

[spoiler=FE7 randomized, ??]to be added

[spoiler=FE8 randomized, Hard mode]to be added

Reverse Recruitment:

[spoiler=FE6 RR, Normal mode]Unit data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m4hGnVRHZUNlvMn_yR4gwY2Bk7GfD7atMoZYIFlPcfU/

Drafting:

1. This draft is for 5 players.

2. Paperblade's reverse recruitment patch (with the Karel demotion after chapter 21x removed) will be used: https://www.sendspace.com/file/wkb6fx Apply it to a completely unpatched FE6 rom.

3. The game will be played on Normal mode.

4. Karel, Yuno, Merlinus, Lalum, Elphin and Fa are free for all to use.

5. Three units will remain undrafted.

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade and dig up items in the desert.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, and opening Doors or Chests.
3. Use of the Warp staff is banned.
4. All Gaiden chapters are required to be visited. Chapter 20x (either route) does not count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken.
5. NPCs may do as they please without penalty.
6. The game must be played out to the True Ending.

7. Lalum and Elphin may not dance for each other.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 4-turn penalty per unit, per chapter.
2. Refreshers dancing for each other has a 15-turn penalty, per chapter.

Exceptions:
1. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Promotion items.

Teams:

(names go here)

[spoiler=units remaining]Yodel
Dayan
Niime
Douglas
Hugh
Zeiss
Garret
Igrene
Sophia
Cecilia
Percival
Miledy
Cath
Ray
Bartre
Elphin
Echidna
Lalum
Tate
Klein
Geese
Gonzales
Shin
Fir
Oujay
Barth
Wendy
Lilina
Astore
Noah
Zealot

Sue
Dorothy
Saul
Rutger
Clarine
Lugh
Chad
Shanna
Lot

Ward

Dieck

Ellen
Bors

Wolt

Alan
Lance
Marcus
Roy

[spoiler=FE7 RR, Athos Normal mode]Unit data: https://docs.google....3QL4/edit#gid=0

Drafting:
1. This draft is for 5 players.
2. Athos, Jaffar, Merlinus, Ninian, and Hector are free for all to use.
3. Karel and Eliwood (replace Bartre/Karla) are drafted as a pair.
4. Priscilla and Erk (replace Wallace/Geitz) are drafted as a pair.
5. Jaffar is banned after Chapter 16.
6. The game will be played on Athos (replacing Hector) Normal Mode.

7. This patch will be used: http://www.mediafire...Recruitment.ups

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories, and dig up items in the desert.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, opening Doors or Chests, talking to Fargus in Chapter 17x, or Seizing Castles in Chapter 25.
3. All Gaiden Chapters except 19xx, 23x and 28x are required to be visited. 23x and 28x may be visited at the player's discretion, and don't count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken per chapter.
4. Other units may do as they please without penalty.
5. Defend chapters count the last played Player Phase for turns if the timer is waited out.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter.

Exceptions:
1. Renault is free for Chapter 11.
2. Louise is free for Chapter 12.
3. Meatshielding is allowed for Chapter 13x.
4. Hawkeye, Isadora, Heath, and Rath are free for Chapter 16.
5. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Promotion items.

Teams:
(names go here)

[spoiler=Units remaining]Renault

Louise

Pent

Karla

Vaida

Nino

Karel + Eliwood

Harken

Farina

Wallace

Geitz

Hawkeye

Isadora

Heath

Rath

Legault

Fiora

Dart

Canas

Lucius

Raven

Florina

Wil

Sain

Kent

Lyn

Priscilla

Erk

Guy

Serra

Oswin

Dorcas

Bartre

Rebecca

Marcus

Lowen

Eliwood

Matthew

[spoiler=FE8 RR, Hard mode]Drafting:
1. This draft is for 4 players.
2. Knoll/Kyle, Orson, Tethys, and Myrrh are free for all to use.
3. Syrene is banned from all use.
4. The game will be played on Hard Mode.

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories and dig up items in the desert.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, and opening Doors or Chests.
3. Map shopping is allowed.
4. Skirmishes/use of the Tower or Ruins is disallowed. Skirmishes that are blocking your path may be activated and immediately fled from.
5. Defend chapters count the last played Player Phase for turns if the timer is waited out.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter.
2. Syrene has a special 8 turn penalty per chapter.

Teams:

(names go here)

Reversed unit list to be added.

Stuff that needs some discussion and testing:

- FE6 HM ruleset? I think Rutger shouldn't be free forever since it'd devalue other foot units due to taking up the first hero crest and I don't think he's essential past chapter 9 in terms of bosskilling so I tentatively made him free up to C9 and draftable afterwards. I don't think Zealot is really a lifesaver anywhere barring chapter 7, so I listed him as free only for that map. The Rutger rule especially is in question.

- FE6 RR, the whole dancer thing mainly.

- FE6-8 randomized. I'm not sold on the random recruitment order + independent teams thing that was used in FE8random drafts so far because part of what makes drafts is that your picks interact with those that the other players make and that ruleset removes this aspect. The FE6 randomized ruleset is probably worth testing for the rest with the necessary adjustments.

- Made both ballistae free in FE11 H5 since Beck would be pointless to pick otherwise, and while he won't be more likely to be useful, it's at least viable to recruit him if you fail to do chapter 13 more quickly. Removed Jeorge from the free units because it isn't needed. Also added the rule that one undrafted unit is free for chapter 1 because it makes the bosskill much more bearable. Less of a point that needs testing and more of a note.

[spoiler=Changelog]

04 Dec 2015: FE6 HM - Treck may be attacked in chapter 7. 
15 Dec 2015: FE7 RR - Athos Normal Mode ruleset added.
             FE6 randomized - Normal Mode ruleset added. 
16 Dec 2015: FE7 RR Athos Normal Mode - Reversed unit list added.
             FE6 RR Normal mode - Unit data added.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Yojinbo]

For FE6 HM I'd consider making Treck free in Ch.7

Edit: I'm not sure if there's a way to make FE6 RR not broken tbh. Would need a lot of tweaking either way.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Yojinbo

[General Horace]

FE7 RR is also really broken because you get three a load of fliers really fast, but Vaida and Farina comes slightly earlier than Heath and Fiora (and Fiora honestly kinda sucks) but the games themselves aren't balanced at all.

[Irysa]

FE6 HM Rutger free to Chapter 9 is a very odd rule. I understand the logic, but imo he should just be entirely free if we're going to be assuming he's getting promoted to fight Henning. If you don't assume promotion then his chance of killing Henning drops dramatically because Henning is just that much of an asshole and it kinda seems unfair that people are going to have to "waste" a Hero Crest and buttloads of boss EXP on Rutger whom they can't keep using after C9. It's either that or do something similar to FE11 Caeda where Rutger counts as "undrafted" for everyone after a particular chapter (imo, 12x).

Also seconding free Treck in C7.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

why does treck need to be free? it makes recruiting zealot easier, sure, but if you didn't draft him you can just let treck suicide.

Edited December 4, 2015 by General Horace

[Irysa]

If Treck suicides he activates a bunch of enemy units that otherwise won't move. C7 is hard enough as it is, let alone under draft conditions, let alone with more enemies to deal with.

If you recruit Treck to stop that happening then nobody can Rescue Roy out of the way because Talk uses up Zealot's action.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

I still don't see the problem.

If anyone should be free in that chapter, it's Zealot, since you're actually forced to recruit him.

I don't really care what happens either way, I'm never going to join an FE6HM draft anyway.

Edited December 4, 2015 by General Horace

[Irysa]

Zealot IS free in Chapter 7. The point is to make Treck free as well. Did you miss my edit?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

oh, gg me, that's what I get for not actually reading the rules.

Marcus/any one of the several mounts on your team can rescue Roy out of harms way.

Like I said, I don't really care what the rules state for FE6HM drafts, its a pretty silly premise anyway considering the amount of already useless units in FE6NM drafts, but the more free units you have (be it for one chapter or several) the more it devalues actually picking units. Treck is pretty chump anyway, but my point still stands.

Perhaps people pick Treck since he enables getting a lot of the villages in chapter 7 and can even contribute (badly) to clearing a way for Roy/Rescuing him, if you're going to make him free for that chapter, give him the FE4 Midir treatment and only make him free to be attacked, meaning the only commands he can use are trade or wait (or theoretically rescue on an undrafted unit if you deploy Thany to shop or something).

Edited December 4, 2015 by General Horace

[Irysa]

Okay let me rephrase that to "nobody will be available to Rescue Roy without it totally fucking up Turn 2 EP".

Thought about it some more, you're right, it's fine. I was initially thinking because it's a draft Marcus would have to finish the Merc in the way, and then whoever goes to get Roy ends up exposed to to a bunch of enemies (including the Wyvern) but there are ways to alleviate these problems. I'm down with making Treck free to get attacked though.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

I'm OK with giving Treck the Midir treatment. It's just really dumb for him to be stuck in that position without him being allowed to do anything.

Edit: A similar rule should probably be implemented for Echidna in RR because she can't canto away after talking to Lalum

Edited December 4, 2015 by Yojinbo

[Gradivus.]

FE6 HM Rutger free to Chapter 9 is a very odd rule. I understand the logic, but imo he should just be entirely free if we're going to be assuming he's getting promoted to fight Henning. If you don't assume promotion then his chance of killing Henning drops dramatically because Henning is just that much of an asshole and it kinda seems unfair that people are going to have to "waste" a Hero Crest and buttloads of boss EXP on Rutger whom they can't keep using after C9. It's either that or do something similar to FE11 Caeda where Rutger counts as "undrafted" for everyone after a particular chapter (imo, 12x).

The point is to ensure he doesn't automatically get the C7 hero crest. The C11 one is a pain to get and someone like the Fighters and Dieck would want it earlier to stay relevant. Against Henning, unpromoted Rutger can double with two spd procs (17 Spd, assuming he rolls 15 base; idk if Henning can have more than 17 Spd, but the benchmark isn't hard to meet) and does 5 damage per hit with KE and 1 str proc if Henning has the steel blade equipped. Against Hand Axe Henning, it requires 19 Spd which isn't very difficult either since Rutger will have a lot of show time against both bosses and mooks. Having unpromoted rutger free against HM Henning brings him roughly on par with NM Henning in drafts where you don't have Rutger, in terms of reliability. Most people just get 40 hit or something Light Brands to connect against him in drafts anyway, so Rutger getting a crit and a bunch of hits and with Light Brand assistance would probably work out. It's hard to make both optimal, but I think it's better to compromise on reliability a bit in chapters 8, 8x and 9 by making promoting him an iffier option than to deprive various combat units of their contributions in the western isles. Perhaps allowing him to attack bosses exclusively from C10 to C12x would be a viable idea? (I doubt making complex rules like that is a good one though, tbh)

As for the bosskill exp thing, typically the early bosskills, even in NM drafts, just go to Marcus otherwise, who doesn't take huge benefits from exp, given that it takes quite a bunch of time until stuff like Alance, Shanna or whoever can dent bosses much, except perhaps against thwomps with an Armorslayer!Cav, in which case Rutger doesn't risk to critkill by accident.

Edit: A similar rule should probably be implemented for Echidna in RR because she can't canto away after talking to Lalum

Yuno (with Elphin's help) can drop Karel on a forest tile far enough for him to recruit Lalum on turn 2, undrafted Echidna is likely to be ignored.

Treck now is free to get attacked in C7, as I too think that only drafted units should be allowed to visit villages and attack by themselves (even if Treck fails to do much against HM C7 enemies). C7 is a big pain anyway, so we might aswell make it a bit easier.

[Yojinbo]

Yuno (with Elphin's help) can drop Karel on a forest tile far enough for him to recruit Lalum on turn 2, undrafted Echidna is likely to be ignored.

Echidna replaces Zealot who is required to unlock the good ending if you go to Ilia.

[Gradivus.]

I guess that is probably relevant for the players that pick Sophia (and lolNoah I guess) when Lalum can't get exp as quickly with the dancer rule, so yeah, it's worth considering. Wouldn't it be doable to recruit her on turn 3, make her move down and then get ferried out of enemy range by an undrafted mount though?

[Yojinbo]

I haven't played [let alone drafted] the game enough to tell whether it's realistic or not to recruit Echidna on a later turn.

Taking all things into consideration though - RR generally being played on NM, Echidna having good stats and her being allowed to actually do stuff as a green unit - it may not actually be important [or potentially even benefitial] to recruit her asap. She probably doesn't face any real chances of death nor can she run into a position from where she's out of reach to be recruited later considering [Tate can do that].

So uh, I don't know. It may not be needed after all, MAYBE in HM but idk if anybody ever actually runs RR!HM

[Irysa]

The point is to ensure he doesn't automatically get the C7 hero crest.

Okay but this doesn't achieve that.

Against Henning, unpromoted Rutger can double with two spd procs (17 Spd, assuming he rolls 15 base; idk if Henning can have more than 17 Spd, but the benchmark isn't hard to meet) and does 5 damage per hit with KE and 1 str proc if Henning has the steel blade equipped. Against Hand Axe Henning, it requires 19 Spd which isn't very difficult either since Rutger will have a lot of show time against both bosses and mooks.

Henning has 18 base speed on a fresh reset in HM, the site data is incorrect. Rutger needs 3 speed procs, to double or 2 if you rig Rutger's bonuses (he can start with 16 Speed). Rutger needs to be fucking capped on speed to double Hand Axe Henning, which basically flat out demands you rig him speed every levelup or dump lots of wasted EXP into him. The extra hit and mt isn't worth the increased AS requirement.

Your outlined idea of killing Henning (something like unpromoted Rutger connecting 4 attacks across 2 phases, critting at least once and probably Marcus connecting a Silver Lance or a Light Brand somewhere inbetween) is soooo unlikely. The chance of that happening is something like 1% lol. If we add in another round of combat for Rutger to attack its still sitting at like sub 5% (I can't be bothered to do the math). Promoting Rutger drastically improves your chances to kill Henning over the span of 2 phases to something like 15%, and with the extra round of combat the numbers go above 20 , the extra crit, skill and damage are just so important. A NM Henning kill without Rutger generally sits around the 15% area of reliablity (off the top of my head)

I mean it's easy for me or you to rig something like that with the luascript but it's pretty unreasonable to expect other players to choose between sitting missing with Rutger for maybe up to 5 turns in a row praying that you kill Henning or trying to find consecutive 50 hit 30 crit RNs lying around.

As for the bosskill exp thing, typically the early bosskills, even in NM drafts, just go to Marcus otherwise, who doesn't take huge benefits from exp, given that it takes quite a bunch of time until stuff like Alance, Shanna or whoever can dent bosses much, except perhaps against thwomps with an Armorslayer!Cav, in which case Rutger doesn't risk to critkill by accident.

Eh, Dieck can take early bosskill EXP instead of Marcus too.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Irysa

[Gradivus.]

something like unpromoted Rutger connecting 4 attacks across 2 phases, critting at least once and probably Marcus connecting a Silver Lance or a Light Brand somewhere inbetween

This isn't really what I had in mind, I was more thinking along the lines of having him attack Henning with KE and doing something either with rescue dropping him out of Henning's range or using light brand immediately which would take roughly 3-4 turns without heavy (by which I mean rigging all or nearly all hits) luck/RNG manipulation I think? It's quite possible that other units drafted units can chuck light brand shots at him, although it's iffy with 30-35% true hit.

Level 9-10 Rutger also has around 65 true hit I think against Hand Axe Henning? 6 more disp than against steel blade anyway (against which he has about 52 disp = 54.5 true), idk what he prefers to attack with at melee range though.

I guess I stand corrected wrt doubling hand axe henning.

I get your argument, but if we just make him free forever, a bunch of combat units get devalued a lot and if we make him free up to C12x, it'll probably just be a similar effect for a shorter period of time. Maybe I'm overestimating it, but it does seem to make a really huge difference when he can ORKO everything in the isles easily with an iron blade or steel sword and just use killing edges to keep walloping things with very reliable crits, and he doesn't even have significant mov issues in stuff like C10 where you just need him to lead the charge. Maybe allowing him to only attack bosses to make the rutger promotion without having anyother hero crest users more justifiable even turns out to be better. To be fair my goal is less "don't promote Rutger" and more "promote drafted units rather than Rutger". Just promoting Rutger without other candidates for a soon hero crest isn't contrary to what I'm trying to encourage. You'd have to dump him after 3 chapters of improved utility with the current rule, but as I pointed out the seemingly "wasted" bosskill exp is not a big deal, the exp he gets from mooks is mainly obtained because you need him against these generics and if you think it's wise to use the C11 crest instead or just don't need any it's viable to promote him.

TL;DR I don't think it's a good idea to allow him much longer because it effectively centers additional chapters around him, but imo we need to figure it out in practice (feel free to still bring up arguments, though).

Eh, Dieck can take early bosskill EXP instead of Marcus too.

Yeah, but he gets two knight bosskills when Rutger isn't around yet, can potentially nab the Dory kill if Rutger doesn't ORKO with a crit + hit (iirc he doesn't?) or somehow whiffs or something else and does a lot of work against early mooks so I don't see him suffering much from Rutger's presence except for the hero crest deal (though I think promoting Dieck, unless screwed, would always be preferable to promoting limitedly allowed Rutger). Most other units have either too poor accuracy and/or attack to be expected to take bosskills early on though, although I think you made more of a side note than a counterargument anyway in that part.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Irysa]

@ first point; if you're aiming for a 3 or 4 turn Henning kill as acceptable then I'll concede, that's relatively workable. It's still total dicks though and I'd never enter a FE6 HM draft. <_<

I agree with your goal, but like, fucking Henning man.

[General Horace]

@ first point; if you're aiming for a 3 or 4 turn Henning kill as acceptable then I'll concede, that's relatively workable. It's still total dicks though and I'd never enter a FE6 HM draft. <_<

I agree with your goal, but like, fucking Henning man.

I think this is the most important thing here, why bother fine tuning a ruleset for a mode that's unlikely to get 4/5 willing participants? Like I said above, normal FE6 drafts has a ton of useless units, and HM magnifies this fact, you might as well draft ~3-4 units each and be done with it. At least in FE11 you can get someone to C Lances and ridersbane people even with poor stats, and FE12 has boosters, but there's no redeeming dudes like Dorothy or Geese.

Edited December 5, 2015 by General Horace

[Gradivus.]

normal FE6 drafts has a ton of useless units, and HM magnifies this fact

Statwise yeah, but the number of unuseful units has a lot to do with the fact that the mounts have a much easier time facilitating quick clears on normal mode, they do need a bunch more assistance on hard mode from what I've seen (I guess all of this is watching Bal's old FE6 HM draft video playthrough lol), which would allow for other units to take meaningful roles and get exp or something.

If there'll be like one hard mode draft in like 1-2 years in the future I won't be hugely surprised tbh, but I figured talking about ideas for it can't hurt.

@ first point; if you're aiming for a 3 or 4 turn Henning kill as acceptable then I'll concede, that's relatively workable. It's still total dicks though and I'd never enter a FE6 HM draft. <_<

I agree with your goal, but like, fucking Henning man.

I don't really find it very desirable tbf, I guess I was kind of rambling about how it could pan out. Maybe the Hero crest distribution just isn't well-fit for drafts on HM, but chapter 12 isn't super late or anything so yeah. I'm mostly just estimating stuff and I'm a masochist when it comes to FE anyway so my idea might have been a bit too restrictive or something. Promoted Rutger for everyone would allow Henning to be killed in 2 turns fairly reliably because of the factors you brought up, so I guess it could be worth trying your C12x suggestion.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Gradivus.

[eclipse]

For FE12, I'd like to actually play out the draft before deciding whether or not those rules should be final. H3 is somewhat of a tricky beast, as it's one of those modes where a couple of key items are missing (one of which locks out access to several other items).

[Gradivus.]

Yeah, most of the rulesets are just tentative right now (I'm relatively certain about the FE11 H5 one, but it also is open for changes), if necessary they will be edited once it's tested more.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Irysa]

Thinking about it, I think the main way to alleviate the "useless units" problem in FE6HM is via encouraging people to use the Rescuedeath glitch to save turns (this is easy on HM actually)

Draft good units until all are gone

Draft bad units

Have bad units do Take then preform a suicidal attack whilst holding good units who have done something that turn

Good units get boosted movement and another action

???

Profit

Edited December 5, 2015 by Irysa

[Gradivus.]

Added FE6random and FE7RR rulesets.

Thinking about it, I think the main way to alleviate the "useless units" problem in FE6HM is via encouraging people to use the Rescuedeath glitch to save turns (this is easy on HM actually)

Draft good units until all are gone

Draft bad units

Have bad units do Take then preform a suicidal attack whilst holding good units who have done something that turn

Good units get boosted movement and another action

???

Profit

Suicide dropping in itself would be easy to execute on HM, but one suicide only tends to save one extra turn, very rarely maybe two (I doubt this applies outside of situations where you exploit terrain + suicide a flier on EP). I'm not sure how much it would change, since terrible units like Barth and Wendy get drafted on normal mode for dropping or giving a unit in two or three chapters already and can do roughly the same on HM.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Gradivus.