Controversial Aspects in Fates? (Possible Censorship in NA?)

[Immahnoob]

Pffftt, never said they did a good job in giving us only 2. I love myself some yuri. But it still kind of proves my statement, doesn't it?

If say, there were none, I couldn't say "You can't marry Soleil to any woman in-game, thus she is not homosexual/bisexual.".

[nyainou]

Pffftt, never said they did a good job in giving us only 2. I love myself some yuri. But it still kind of proves my statement, doesn't it?

If say, there were none, I couldn't say "You can't marry Soleil to any woman in-game, thus she is not homosexual/bisexual.".

Its more like, "Soleil can't marry F!Corrin, therefore she isn't homosexual", considering Niles and Rhajat are bisexual but can only marry either Corrin. I don't agree with what you're saying, however, considering the fact that she's.. Canonically into women. Tharja was canonically into women in Awakening yet she couldn't marry any. Also, Nintendo acknowledges the implications of the support being "Homosexual conversion,"

Edit: However, just like Niles and Rhajat, she's really just walking fetish bait and I also acknowledge that. The flaws with Soleil is that she's written as a fetish instead of a lesbian, which she obviously is. That's why people are so upset.

Edited January 23, 2016 by lordcorrin

[Sunwoo]

Tharja was canonically into women in Awakening yet she couldn't marry any.

Wat.

Tharja was canonically into Robin, regardless of gender. Where are you getting that Tharja was canonically into women.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Medeus]

Unless it would have seriously put their interests at risk, Gamefreak should have left Jynx as is. Same goes for the support conversation that got changed. I know drugging someone without their knowledge is bad, but why would it be so bad for a situation like that to be included in a work of fiction?

And that's the thing: It doesn't suit their interests to keep it. Jynx's controversy did cause quite a stink, so making the change was more beneficial then leaving it as is from a business perspective. With Soleil's supports, there's also nothing gained in keeping it as leaving it as is you get A) the gay conversion misconception, B) the drugging implication, C) a poorly written support that's inconsistent character-wise for Soleil, and D) a lot of negative media and fan attention, which can hurt their bottom line. Dealing with all of that isn't really worth keeping a support around as is, and there is more benefits in changing it into something more palatable then not. So in this case, I don't see the point in not going for localizing the support, what is gained for the company's interest outweighs what is lost, especially when most fans' reactions seem to either be "OK" or "good riddance".

Edited January 23, 2016 by Medeus

[nyainou]

Wat.

Tharja was canonically into Robin, regardless of gender. Where are you getting that Tharja was canonically into women.

I guess you're right. I don't tend to really acknowledge the whole "if its you its okay" trope because I find it uncomfortable and iffy. My bad.

[Immahnoob]

Oh well, then why are you guys arguing from a real life perspective if you're then going to acknowledge that none of the characters presented actually fit reality? Tharja was also into Robin, not into females. And she couldn't marry the female Robin anyway. That just means we have another unrealistic case.

I don't believe canon ever said she's into women, if anything, canon says nothing about her being into anyone if we're not taking into consideration her options anymore. And Nintendo didn't actually acknowledge it, more than dispel the rumor, the conversation never featured "homosexual conversion", that was a false narrative.

If we're taking the conversation between them, we either have nothing on her sexuality or she's a bisexual, but if we also take her options and compare them to Niles and Rhajat, we have a heterosexual. SInce she cannot marry ANY female while both Rhajat and Niles can marry at least one female and one male.

So we still have a case of Japanese tropes and we still have a case of a completely different universe to ours. So why the controversy?

Edited January 23, 2016 by Immahnoob

[Dualazi]

2 whole gay options in a cast of ~70. Oh boy. Not that I'm not grateful, but. Oh boy.

Not that I would consider myself an expert on the topic, but a quick google search shows that approx. 3.8% of Americans identify as LGBT, with that potentially swinging as high a *possible* 6-7%, if you assume half of all people polled lie about it. 2 gay people out of 70 comes to roughly 3% so they're reasonably close to demographic parity in the US, at least from sources I've looked at. At most, they'd need to switch 2 more people to being homosexual, which would put them at the high end of the estimate.

It's important to realize that there should definitely be gay options available to people, especially in a game that has a self-insert, but that it really is a small minority, and it's just as silly to go the opposite direction and have every single character be bi just so people can romance anyone they want. That is the true waifu-emblem right there.

[Alazen]

The hubbubs about same-sex options and Soleil's support with Kamui are cases of parties lacking knowledge of elements in Japan's culture.

1. None of the same-sex options are there to be "inclusive". IS is no different from assorted other Japanese developers in that they don't go out of their way to pander to uppity Westerners beyond dealing with localizations. The same-sex options are available for the Yaoi and Yuri crowds. And I assure you that the Yaoi crowd (see also Fujoshi) has a noticeable amount of straight women in it.

2. Soleil is Fates' version of an animu habit (one poster on reddit called it "excessive girl-crushing"). She isn't supposed to be a representation of a homosexual so much as a play for laughs. See these posts for more info on this.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Alazen

[Zerosabers]

Not that I would consider myself an expert on the topic, but a quick google search shows that approx. 3.8% of Americans identify as LGBT, with that potentially swinging as high a *possible* 6-7%, if you assume half of all people polled lie about it. 2 gay people out of 70 comes to roughly 3% so they're reasonably close to demographic parity in the US, at least from sources I've looked at. At most, they'd need to switch 2 more people to being homosexual, which would put them at the high end of the estimate.

It's important to realize that there should definitely be gay options available to people, especially in a game that has a self-insert, but that it really is a small minority, and it's just as silly to go the opposite direction and have every single character be bi just so people can romance anyone they want. That is the true waifu-emblem right there.

Then should we also lower the number of women in the army to keep it realistic? Also can I have an actual source on that since a quick google search means very little.

[nyainou]

Not that I would consider myself an expert on the topic, but a quick google search shows that approx. 3.8% of Americans identify as LGBT, with that potentially swinging as high a *possible* 6-7%, if you assume half of all people polled lie about it. 2 gay people out of 70 comes to roughly 3% so they're reasonably close to demographic parity in the US, at least from sources I've looked at. At most, they'd need to switch 2 more people to being homosexual, which would put them at the high end of the estimate.

It's important to realize that there should definitely be gay options available to people, especially in a game that has a self-insert, but that it really is a small minority, and it's just as silly to go the opposite direction and have every single character be bi just so people can romance anyone they want. That is the true waifu-emblem right there.

Then should we also lower the number of women in the army to keep it realistic? Also can I have an actual source on that since a quick google search means very little.

As stated above, statistics mean nothing in the video game world. How many people can actively transform into a dragon? Also, games can be good and successful while having an all-bisexual cast without being akin to 'waifu-emblem'. Just take a glance at Fallout 4. If I recall, all companions can be romanced regardless of gender. Its all a matter of how you present it.

[Dualazi]

Then should we also lower the number of women in the army to keep it realistic? Also can I have an actual source on that since a quick google search means very little.

The idea that one absence of realism means you can't have any is one that's often crowed about in fantasy/gaming, and one that always falls short. To answer your question though, no. Roughly 50% of gamers are women these days, and I'm unsure if that demographic holds over the fire emblem player base, it makes sense to have equal representation for them. This was my point above, exactly, that people complain about only 2 gay options when that's only slightly off the mark of where it should be to reflect the American consumer base.

As stated above, statistics mean nothing in the video game world. How many people can actively transform into a dragon? Also, games can be good and successful while having an all-bisexual cast without being akin to 'waifu-emblem'. Just take a glance at Fallout 4. If I recall, all companions can be romanced regardless of gender. Its all a matter of how you present it.

Fallout 4 and to some extent, Skyrim, are exactly how you DON'T handle an all bisexual cast. There's no way you can possibly create that many unique or meaningful interactions, and those games show it in full. Almost every marriage in skyrim is the same, whether you marry a nord battle maiden or a tavern bard. Similarly, Mass Effect has frequently faced criticism that Shepherd is just trying to get into the pants of the crew rather than save the galaxy, because such an inordinate amount of effort went into making as many characters as possible romanceable.

Oh yeah, the source for that metric was a Gallup poll taken in early 2015 http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx. Also this one from Princeton in 2012 http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx

Edited January 24, 2016 by Dualazi

[Zerosabers]

The idea that one absence of realism means you can't have any is one that's often crowed about in fantasy/gaming, and one that always falls short. To answer your question though, no. Roughly 50% of gamers are women these days, and I'm unsure if that demographic holds over the fire emblem player base, it makes sense to have equal representation for them. This was my point above, exactly, that people complain about only 2 gay options when that's only slightly off the mark of where it should be to reflect the American consumer base.

Well if we're just talking about gamers do you have an actual percentages for that? Because I'm pretty sure the percentages would different that the magic google one you gave. Also sources if you're going to keep using statistics.

[Dualazi]

Well if we're just talking about gamers do you have an actual percentages for that? Because I'm pretty sure the percentages would different that the magic google one you gave. Also sources if you're going to keep using statistics.

alright, since I assume you missed the edit, here. http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx and also http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx

That first one is especially relevant, since I'm going to have to ask your sources for the assumption that there's a disproportionately large number of gay gamers, given that people routinely overestimate the number of people who identify as gay, almost by an order of magnitude.

edit: or did you mean the stats on women gamers vs men?

Edited January 24, 2016 by Dualazi

[nyainou]

Fallout 4 and to some extent, Skyrim, are exactly how you DON'T handle an all bisexual cast. There's no way you can possibly create that many unique or meaningful interactions, and those games show it in full. Almost every marriage in skyrim is the same, whether you marry a nord battle maiden or a tavern bard. Similarly, Mass Effect has frequently faced criticism that Shepherd is just trying to get into the pants of the crew rather than save the galaxy, because such an inordinate amount of effort went into making as many characters as possible romanceable.

Oh yeah, the source for that metric was a Gallup poll taken in early 2015 http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx

And what about any of the straight marriages in FE is special? You only get anything unique out of it if you marry a main character, like Chrom, or Azura. Even the conversations between parent and child are pre-scripted. Also, I tried to find the other poll mentioned in the article you linked, the one where they surveyed for that 3.8% they got. I only found one from 2012. Unless I missed it in the original source. Not that this automatically makes your point invalid, but as a survey it makes it iffy.

Edit: By iffy, I mean you have to consider the differences in US' stance on LGBT+ from 2012 to now. Gay marriage was only fully legalized last year. Prior, it was widely debated and may cause people to never out themselves.

Edited January 24, 2016 by lordcorrin

[Zerosabers]

alright, since I assume you missed the edit, here. http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx and also http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx

That first one is especially relevant, since I'm going to have to ask your sources for the assumption that there's a disproportionately large number of gay gamers, given that people routinely overestimate the number of people who identify as gay, almost by an order of magnitude.

edit: or did you mean the stats on women gamers vs men?

No these were the ones I meant and sorry I missed the edit.

Either way the 3.4% you're getting is from only 120000 people which isn't nearly enough to make a real estimate of the actual LGBT population. Plus they only did adults which leaves out a big chunk of LGBT depending on what age they consider adult.

[Dualazi]

And what about any of the straight marriages in FE is special? You only get anything unique out of it if you marry a main character, like Chrom, or Azura. Even the conversations between parent and child are pre-scripted. Also, I tried to find the other poll mentioned in the article you linked, the one where they surveyed for that 3.8% they got. I only found one from 2012. Unless I missed it in the original source. Not that this automatically makes your point invalid, but as a survey it makes it iffy.

Edit: By iffy, I mean you have to consider the differences in US' stance on LGBT+ from 2012 to now. Gay marriage was only fully legalized last year. Prior, it was widely debated and may cause people to never out themselves.

The 2012 poll is the original source, yes. While I do agree it's somewhat less valuable in light of the supreme court ruling, I sincerely doubt (personal guess here) that is was enough to double the LGBT population inside of 3 years. Which is why, in making the argument earlier, I said that adding 1-2 more gay options would put it near the expected top end. Also, the kids pre-scripted dialogue is real problem, but an understandable one. As for the parents, while they don't have the 'confession' scenes among non-avatars, their conversations and development are certainly different. Inigo marrying Nah is far different than him marrying Lucina, for example. If you were to try and make gay options for everyone, the workload would be ridiculous, and I think it would simply be a result of dev times that they'd be reduced in originality.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Dualazi

[Dualazi]

No these were the ones I meant and sorry I missed the edit.

Either way the 3.4% you're getting is from only 120000 people which isn't nearly enough to make a real estimate of the actual LGBT population. Plus they only did adults which leaves out a big chunk of LGBT depending on what age they consider adult.

120000 people is a titanic sample, and waaaaay more than you'd need to get an accurate reading.

[Alazen]

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr088.pdf

Here's a more recent study.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Alazen

[Dualazi]

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr088.pdf

Here's a more recent study.

damn, yeah that is a recent one. Just doing some basic division on their final numbers, it looks like they find roughly 7% of women were homosexual or bisexual, and 4% of men were. It seems lordcorrin was right about the numbers rising since the 2012 poll, but they're still within my estimated 7% cap. For women at least, men have hardly budged from the 3.4-3.8% marker.

[NekoKnight]

As far as gay/bisexual characters go, I think it would have been fine to have 4 of them without stretching believability. It's pretty silly that you have only one gay option per version of the game and not even for both genders.

The idea that one absence of realism means you can't have any is one that's often crowed about in fantasy/gaming, and one that always falls short. To answer your question though, no. Roughly 50% of gamers are women these days, and I'm unsure if that demographic holds over the fire emblem player base, it makes sense to have equal representation for them. This was my point above, exactly, that people complain about only 2 gay options when that's only slightly off the mark of where it should be to reflect the American consumer base.

The roughly equal male/female ratio has more to do with there being equal spouses for marriage than the female player base being fairly represented. Past FE games typically had disproportionately male casts.

[Tryhard]

I doubt IS would do research into exactly what the percentage of LGBT people in any country is, but the general consensus or estimate is that it's around 5-10%, which could afford to be a couple more characters if you were to adhere to that.

It's a fantasy game, though, I don't think it should adhere to reality completely. That way it can be more (or less) than what the "correct" percentage is. Like said before, should there be less playable women in the army? Even in older Fire Emblem games the higher male ratio still had enough females that it might go against history.

Regardless, Alazen is most likely right in what he said.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Tryhard

[Captain Karnage]

I think I've cleared up my thoughts on the subject

I don't like Soleil's support

and I'm not for Nintendo changing it

why I'm anticensorship and I'd be a hypocrite if I was for one change and not another

Now if they added s supports for the FeMu and the Tharja look alike I'd be fine with that

why I'm fine with that

They are adding more than what was in the OG release and not taking anything out

Edited January 24, 2016 by Captain Karnage

[nyainou]

I think I've cleared up my thoughts on the subject

I don't like Soleil's support

and I'm not for Nintendo changing it

why I'm anticensorship and I'd be a hypocrite if I was for one change and not another

Now if they added s supports for the FeMu and the Tharja look alike I'd be fine with that

why I'm fine with that

They are adding more than what was in the OG release and not taking anything out

The Tharja look alike is the lesbian option, and always has been.

[Captain Karnage]

The Tharja look alike is the lesbian option, and always has been.

The s support is for Soleil and the Tharja look alike

EDIT: by that I'm saying I would be fine if they added an s support for the two characters in Revelations

Edited January 24, 2016 by Captain Karnage

[nyainou]

The s support is for Soleil and the Tharja look alike

EDIT: by that I'm saying I would be fine if they added an s support for the two characters in Revelations

Oh, I misunderstood what you said. My bad.