Alternatives to Conquest Chapter 15? [obvious spoilers inside]

[ghast]

Hello! I just finished watching linkmstr's fates english patch LP or Nohr's route. And I have a few plot related questions. I know people get touchy on this so please try 2 b chill.

1) How significant was Lilith to the main story? The reason I ask this is because when she was killed I felt that her death scene seemed pretty drawn out and personally I didn't feel much connection to her. When she actually died I thought to myself "is this sad? Because I feel like this could have been avoided and I also don't really know much about her."

2) How come Kamui could not protect the lives of the Fox tribe? What was different about their motivations rather than the troops of Hoshido that made Kamui unable to keep them alive?

3) Does Aqua's dance have the ability to reveal Garon's true form? IIRC she said she can "cure him" or something? Is that the same thing as revealing he's the slime monster?

4) Does the lake that Aqua specifically goes to to enter the IK have a special significance? or can it be any body of water?

5)How does that curse work exactly? Can you describe the world in any way you want but the only rule is literally not to say what its really called?

6) What are the origins of the crystal ball? can it be replicated in the IK?

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7: Does anyone from Nohr have any other reason besides "because he's the main character" to put so much faith and warmth in Kamui? Is there something about his past that justifies everyone riding his dick the whole game? The siblings seem quite static for the entire game.

8: Speaking of siblings, what is Marx's complete relationship with Garon? If I remember in chapter 27 or something he noticed that Garon had changed? Or he didn't want to believe it until he has proof? They seem to be quite vocal at Garon's orders to basically send him to for sure death missions and go behind Garon's back to ensure his survival. So for me I have trouble believing that if Kamui told them about Garon's true form they would actually kill him for it.

9: speaking of true form, if the crystal ball is one use, wouldn't showing Leon as well as Kamui about garon's form make way more logical sense than to just show Kamui?

10: The siblings all have errands to run so they can't join Kamui until they can. Are these errands ever explained?

11: What are Macbeth's and Garon's motivation to make Kamui suffer? Why are they such dickheads to him?

12: How come Aqua's dance kills her? How does an exocism-like dance kill the person doing it? Is that ever explained or is it just "because it does"?

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12: How do you think Support!Marx would act in the main story?

13: It feels like a lot of plot criticisms are mostly "what ifs" and/or "shoulda, woulda, coulda"s. And while I understand that we're outsiders looking at Kamui's action from a viewer's perspective and putting our "you should have done this instead" can be unfair since Kamui is a person. I just can't help but think he SHOULD have treated his problems way better if in the end he wanted to protect as many hoshidans as he could.

Maybe this question is redundant or something, but is it right to criticize Kamui's actions even though he's extremely naive and inexperienced in battle? Or is it the fault of everyone else who enables him to do all these things without any question at all?

At first I was extremely livid at Kamui for doing the things he did. But now that I think about it, it seems like everyone else can also be responsible? Idk, I'm hoping someone understands my question here hah

I have more questions, but I'll wait for these current answers!

Edited February 29, 2016 by ghast

[twice]

I'm sure other people will have better answers than this but here goes:

1) Lilith doesn't do much besides bring you to your castle (And fight with you in castle battles.) Other than that I don't think she's that relevant, although [spoiler=DLC SPOILER!!! I doubt anyone cares about spoilers if they're reading this but I'll still tag this anyways]Turns out she is Hydra/Anankos's daughter.

2) I don't know the answer but either way it's just because Flannel is exclusive to Nohr and Nishiki is exclusive to Hoshido, so I guess they just did that to even it out.

3) The song Aqua sings just makes him weaker. If I remember right it's because it's an ancient thing used way back in Touma used against dragons (and Garon was really a fake made by Hydra/Anankos). Garon turns into his candle wax because he sat on the Hoshido throne, which shows who/what you really are.

4) I think just that body of water? Since Touma is like in between the other nations.

5) As long as you don't mention Touma or anything specific related to it, you should be fine. (And not die...)

6) I have no idea lol.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Jin

[NekoKnight]

You fool! Serenes Forest has no chill! You might want to add "Spoilers" to the thread title, btw.

1) I didn't feel for her death either. She basically shows up to be the mascot of My Castle and then is absent for the rest of the plot.

2) I thought the conflict was rather contrived. Kamui and friends pass through the mountains to avoid Hoshidan troops. The foxes show up and say "Dis sacred mountain, u die" and you have no choice but to fight. Kamui is doing a no kill run, but this time, the foxes are implied to have been wiped out, for some reason.

3) The Hoshidan throne and crystal ball can show his true form but the dance was to restore normal Garon/contain slime Garon...or something.

4) I believe it was just that body of water that was a gateway.

5) You aren't able to mention Touma or anything about it in detail, including the curse itself. I wonder if you can bypass it by writing stuff down...

6) Not sure where the crystal comes from. My impression was it was an item from Touma.

[Shadowess]

I've yet to play the game, but for question #2, I think

Nishiki is wary of people passing by his village, and he believes that they're gonna wipe out his tribe for their fur so he decides to off them before they can do so. Since the fox technically initiated the battle, Corrin has to fight back in order to pass through.

Also I think the Youko Village is just inside of Hoshido, like how Flannel's group lives inside Nohr? Which would make the tribes a separate and independent case from the actual kingdom? otl I'm not sure about this last part

That's what I got from watching the video anyways.

[Tooru]

Azura's song and dance can weaken those evil things.

In Hoshido route she cures Takumi. She tries to do the same thing on Garon in Nohr route, but it is too late because the real Garon is absolutely dead.

[ghast]

okie dokie, thanks everyone. And btw if anyone has anymore to add feeel free to. More questions:

7: Does anyone from Nohr have any other reason besides "because he's the main character" to put so much faith and warmth in Kamui? Is there something about his past that justifies everyone riding his dick the whole game? The siblings seem quite static for the entire game.

8: Speaking of siblings, what is Marx's complete relationship with Garon? If I remember in chapter 27 or something he noticed that Garon had changed? Or he didn't want to believe it until he has proof? They seem to be quite vocal at Garon's orders to basically send him to for sure death missions and go behind Garon's back to ensure his survival. So for me I have trouble believing that if Kamui told them about Garon's true form they would actually kill him for it.

9: speaking of true form, if the crystal ball is one use, wouldn't showing Leon as well as Kamui about garon's form make way more logical sense than to just show Kamui?

10: The siblings all have errands to run so they can't join Kamui until they can. Are these errands ever explained?

11: What are Macbeth's and Garon's motivation to make Kamui suffer? Why are they such dickheads to him?

12: How come Aqua's dance kills her? How does an exocism-like dance kill the person doing it? Is that ever explained or is it just "because it does"?

I have more questions but I'll sit on these for now

[Thane]

okie dokie, thanks everyone. And btw if anyone has anymore to add feeel free to. More questions:

7: Does anyone from Nohr have any other reason besides "because he's the main character" to put so much faith and warmth in Kamui? Is there something about his past that justifies everyone riding his dick the whole game? The siblings seem quite static for the entire game.

8: Speaking of siblings, what is Marx's complete relationship with Garon? If I remember in chapter 27 or something he noticed that Garon had changed? Or he didn't want to believe it until he has proof? They seem to be quite vocal at Garon's orders to basically send him to for sure death missions and go behind Garon's back to ensure his survival. So for me I have trouble believing that if Kamui told them about Garon's true form they would actually kill him for it.

9: speaking of true form, if the crystal ball is one use, wouldn't showing Leon as well as Kamui about garon's form make way more logical sense than to just show Kamui?

10: The siblings all have errands to run so they can't join Kamui until they can. Are these errands ever explained?

11: What are Macbeth's and Garon's motivation to make Kamui suffer? Why are they such dickheads to him?

12: How come Aqua's dance kills her? How does an exocism-like dance kill the person doing it? Is that ever explained or is it just "because it does"?

I have more questions but I'll sit on these for now

7) Kamui did grow up in Nohr, and it's said that his siblings spent a lot of time with him growing up, so it's not strange that they're close - however, if you're looking for a reason as to why he seems to be particularly loved, or why he's leading the army when there are more capable and experienced leaders around, the game doesn't give you a (solid) reason, as far as I remember.

As for the other characters, they've got no reason for loving or respecting Kamui as much as they do. In particular, Suzukaze's unyielding loyalty and trust in Kamui makes no sense, since he's got no proof Kamui can end the conflict as peacefully as possible, and as far as the former is concerned, Kamui actively goes back on his word when he invades Hoshido.

Felicia and Flora essentially suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, but the game never addresses this, and prefers to indulge the player in the little maid fetish fantasy.

8) Xander's relationship with Garon is only briefly hinted at in his supports. A lot of people, myself included, like how Xander is portrayed in his support and loathe how he acts in the main story, where he's a spineless idiot. Garon, for being such an important character to the story, fails spectacularly both as a character and in the story, since he's a big unknown, never develops/shows different sides of himself, etc.

His true form makes no sense, and Kamui's decision to not even talk about it not only makes no sense, but it actively detracts from the story since it takes the easy way out by simply saying "look, he's a monster anyway, might as well kill him".

9) The less time you think about the crystal ball the better. It is pure, unadulterated plot convenience in the stupidest form, along with the plot curse.

10) Don't know. Whether or not that's due to my rather poor Japanese or because it's not important. Regardless, I doubt it has any real significance.

11) Your guess is as good as ours. I could spoil Revelations a bit, but even that doesn't explains it. As far as we know, Iago is just a dick though and there to be killed with Ganz.

12) I don't actually remember, and it might be explained in the DLC. However, it seems to be there to incite the player to buy Revelations to get the true ending.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Thane

[ghast]

7) Kamui did grow up in Nohr, and it's said that his siblings spent a lot of time with him growing up, so it's not strange that they're close - however, if you're looking for a reason as to why he seems to be particularly loved, or why he's leading the army when there are more capable and experienced leaders around, the game doesn't give you a (solid) reason, as far as I remember.

As for the other characters, they've got no reason for loving or respecting Kamui as much as they do. In particular, Suzukaze's unyielding loyalty and trust in Kamui makes no sense, since he's got no proof Kamui can end the conflict as peacefully as possible, and as far as the former is concerned, Kamui actively goes back on his word when he invades Hoshido.

Felicia and Flora essentially suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, but the game never addresses this, and prefers to indulge the player in the little maid fetish fantasy.

8) Xander's relationship with Garon is only briefly hinted at in his supports. A lot of people, myself included, like how Xander is portrayed in his support and loathe how he acts in the main story, where he's a spineless idiot. Garon, for being such an important character to the story, fails spectacularly both as a character and in the story, since he's a big unknown, never develops/shows different sides of himself, etc.

His true form makes no sense, and Kamui's decision to not even talk about it not only makes no sense, but it actively detracts from the story since it takes the easy way out by simply saying "look, he's a monster anyway, might as well kill him".

9) The less time you think about the crystal ball the better. It is pure, unadulterated plot convenience in the stupidest form, along with the plot curse.

10) Don't know. Whether or not that's due to my rather poor Japanese or because it's not important. Regardless, I doubt it has any real significance.

11) Your guess is as good as ours. I could spoil Revelations a bit, but even that doesn't explains it. As far as we know, Iago is just a dick though and there to be killed with Ganz.

12) I don't actually remember, and it might be explained in the DLC. However, it seems to be there to incite the player to buy Revelations to get the true ending.

7. I thought Leon would have made a more capable leader because he actually has balls and is experienced in war. Or Marx because he's the oldest and strongest at the beginning. I guess you could argue that because of Kamui's victories that implies he can lead a war? But he would have died already if it weren't for the siblings help so idk :\

8. Marx for me was frustrating. I didn't read the supports for him yet but what bothered me about him is that he would threaten to kill kamui even after all that's said and done. Like he disagrees with his father's actions but doesn't agree that he could be possessed because of those actions?

9. See, I would have coped better with it if Aqua didn't know it would shatter. Then she could have been like "oops, I fucked up I didn't see that coming." but still, it would have been wise to do anything else that wasn't what they did afterwards!

11. And I thought Awakening's antagonists were blatantly evil!

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12: How do you think Support!Marx would act in the main story?

13: It feels like a lot of plot criticisms are mostly "what ifs" and/or "shoulda, woulda, coulda"s. And while I understand that we're outsiders looking at Kamui's action from a viewer's perspective and putting our "you should have done this instead" can be unfair since Kamui is a person. I just can't help but think he SHOULD have treated his problems way better if in the end he wanted to protect as many hoshidans as he could.

Maybe this question is redundant or something, but is it right to criticize Kamui's actions even though he's extremely naive and inexperienced in battle? Or is it the fault of everyone else who enables him to do all these things without any question at all?

At first I was extremely livid at Kamui for doing the things he did. But now that I think about it, it seems like everyone else can also be responsible? Idk, I'm hoping someone understands my question here hah

[Thane]

7. I thought Leon would have made a more capable leader because he actually has balls and is experienced in war. Or Marx because he's the oldest and strongest at the beginning. I guess you could argue that because of Kamui's victories that implies he can lead a war? But he would have died already if it weren't for the siblings help so idk :\

8. Marx for me was frustrating. I didn't read the supports for him yet but what bothered me about him is that he would threaten to kill kamui even after all that's said and done. Like he disagrees with his father's actions but doesn't agree that he could be possessed because of those actions?

9. See, I would have coped better with it if Aqua didn't know it would shatter. Then she could have been like "oops, I fucked up I didn't see that coming." but still, it would have been wise to do anything else that wasn't what they did afterwards!

11. And I thought Awakening's antagonists were blatantly evil!

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12: How do you think Support!Marx would act in the main story?

13: It feels like a lot of plot criticisms are mostly "what ifs" and/or "shoulda, woulda, coulda"s. And while I understand that we're outsiders looking at Kamui's action from a viewer's perspective and putting our "you should have done this instead" can be unfair since Kamui is a person. I just can't help but think he SHOULD have treated his problems way better if in the end he wanted to protect as many hoshidans as he could.

Maybe this question is redundant or something, but is it right to criticize Kamui's actions even though he's extremely naive and inexperienced in battle? Or is it the fault of everyone else who enables him to do all these things without any question at all?

At first I was extremely livid at Kamui for doing the things he did. But now that I think about it, it seems like everyone else can also be responsible? Idk, I'm hoping someone understands my question here hah

7) Yes, he would. Leo has more experience, and Xander even moreso.

8) Yes, that bothered pretty much everyone. It's the same song and dance over and over until they kill Garon, and even then they do it because of a cop-out as opposed to any progression made in the narrative.

9) Once again, ignore it completely. The game does its best to forget about it as well.

11) Oh they are. It's just that Fates has even less depth and is written worse. I have my fair share of complaints about Awakening's story, like the nonsensical second arc and Grima being about as interesting as a dry potato, but all of those complaints and more can be applied to Fates, and Awakening actually progressed, whereas in Fates things just randomly happen.

12) Support Xander in the main story would first of all not tolerate the bullshit his father spews. He mentions that he was a shy, timid kid who got over it at least partially by talking to the most scary man he knew: his father. If Xander acted like in his supports, he'd first respectfully tell his father he's completely bonkers, and then eventually try to think of a plan to undermine him; whether he would kill him or not is hard to say since, once again, so little is known about Garon and his relation to others, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibilites. He would most certainly not stand idly by since he keeps talking about how he places the kingdom first and acknowledges what Garon does is bad. The fact that he and all the other siblings just clench their fists in their pocket is one of the reasons why Conquest feels so off: the main characters are spineless idiots who work against what they believe in just to prolong the story, and the solution to 100% of their problems is a cop-out.

That's just my take on it, obviously, and I haven't played the game in so long, partially because I've been trying to forget the story.

13) The siblings also deserve their share of the blame. However, keep in mind that in the span of a few days, Kamui:

Stole Hoshido's priceless artifact.

Was indirectly responsible for his mother's death (I know this was beyond his control, but...)

Bails on the nation and family he was supposed to be part of and COMES BACK TO CONQUER IT even though he suspected Garon was behind the assassination.

Lets innocents be slaughtered no less than three times in the main story without lifting a finger to help (again, clenching his fist in his pockets).

Bets the fate of everyone he loves plus an entire kingdom on a vague, nonsensical plan that came from a magical crystal ball and a magical chair without discussing any other options with his family.

I can understand Kamui wanting to go back to the only thing he has ever known. However, he comes across as a egotistical psycopath who can invade an entire nation for the sake of being with a few people. Rather than bailing on Nohr with his friends and family, or trying to revolt he stays essentially because Xander is inexplicably loyal to Garon.

The icing on the cake is that he's instantly forgiven for everything he has done when it's all over. The entire narrative twists itself to fit the self-insert, which contributes to the heavy amount of player worshipping in the game.

It's just a mess, and I apologize if I didn't answer your question or if I'm just ranting, but it's impossible to make sense of this story, and Conquest in particular due to seemingly large chunks of content have been removed fairly late in development which require desperate deus ex machinas and plot conveniences to repair.

Fortunately, two thirds of the game is non-canon, so hurray for wasted money.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Thane

[ghast]

13) The siblings also deserve their share of the blame. However, keep in mind that in the span of a few days, Kamui:

Bails on the nation and family he was supposed to be part of and COMES BACK TO CONQUER IT even though he suspected Garon was behind the assassination.

Lets innocents be slaughtered no less than three times in the main story without lifting a finger to help (again, clenching his fist in his pockets).

Bets the fate of everyone he loves plus an entire kingdom on a vague, nonsensical plan that came from a magical crystal ball and a magical chair without discussing any other options with his family.

I can understand Kamui wanting to go back to the only thing he has ever known. However, he comes across as a egotistical psycopath who can invade an entire nation for the sake of being with a few people. Rather than bailing on Nohr with his friends and family, or trying to revolt he stays essentially because Xander is inexplicably loyal to Garon.

The icing on the cake is that he's instantly forgiven for everything he has done when it's all over. The entire narrative twists itself to fit the self-insert, which contributes to the heavy amount of player worshipping in the game.

It's just a mess, and I apologize if I didn't answer your question or if I'm just ranting, but it's impossible to make sense of this story, and Conquest in particular due to seemingly large chunks of content have been removed fairly late in development which require desperate deus ex machinas and plot conveniences to repair.

Fortunately, two thirds of the game is non-canon, so hurray for wasted money.

I think it was a little bit of both and answer and rant hahaha ^^;

though I'm still curious about people's answers to question 13.

14) the setting for the final chapter was very confusing to me. And its probably explained moreso in the other 2 games but did they warp to the IK in the last battle or something?

15) Who are those phantom soldiers and why are some of them clones?

16) What is the purgatory/heaven thing in the end? Is Kamui dead or just in a coma or something? It reminded me very much of the cringey "all of your friends are trying to save you" scene that fire emblem loves to do at the end of the games.

17) because I don't want this to turn into a conquest splatter fest. Were there any scenes or moments that you found were written and directed well?

[Thane]

17) because I don't want this to turn into a conquest splatter fest. Were there any scenes or moments that you found were written and directed well?

Before Revelations ruined the entire game, premise and future player confidence and made it painfully obvious there was only ever one real reason as to why they split up the game in several parts, I liked chapter six for actually taking its time making you feel like shit no matter what side you chose.

Also, Takumi's arrow in Kamui's face.

[NekoKnight]

7. I thought Leon would have made a more capable leader because he actually has balls and is experienced in war. Or Marx because he's the oldest and strongest at the beginning. I guess you could argue that because of Kamui's victories that implies he can lead a war? But he would have died already if it weren't for the siblings help so idk :\

8. Marx for me was frustrating. I didn't read the supports for him yet but what bothered me about him is that he would threaten to kill kamui even after all that's said and done. Like he disagrees with his father's actions but doesn't agree that he could be possessed because of those actions?

9. See, I would have coped better with it if Aqua didn't know it would shatter. Then she could have been like "oops, I fucked up I didn't see that coming." but still, it would have been wise to do anything else that wasn't what they did afterwards!

11. And I thought Awakening's antagonists were blatantly evil!

------

12: How do you think Support!Marx would act in the main story?

13: It feels like a lot of plot criticisms are mostly "what ifs" and/or "shoulda, woulda, coulda"s. And while I understand that we're outsiders looking at Kamui's action from a viewer's perspective and putting our "you should have done this instead" can be unfair since Kamui is a person. I just can't help but think he SHOULD have treated his problems way better if in the end he wanted to protect as many hoshidans as he could.

Maybe this question is redundant or something, but is it right to criticize Kamui's actions even though he's extremely naive and inexperienced in battle? Or is it the fault of everyone else who enables him to do all these things without any question at all?

At first I was extremely livid at Kamui for doing the things he did. But now that I think about it, it seems like everyone else can also be responsible? Idk, I'm hoping someone understands my question here hah

7. It never makes much sense why Kamui is the defacto leader. Marx, Camilla and Leon are doubtlessly more experienced and Kamui is hated by his 'father'.

8. Marx flip flops between defending Kamui and being loyal to Garon, right up to threatening to murder his own adopted brother just for slandering Garon. Marx is both aware that Garon is ruthless and cruel but acts defensively when anyone else would question him. If watching your father laugh maniacally over how he wants your little brother/sister to suffer and die, doesn't tip you off to him being evil, I don't know what will.

9. It would still be contrived even if she didn't know about it shattering after 1 use.

11. There's "I'm going to do something evil because it furthers my evil plan" and then there's "I'm going to do evil things for no reason, and it will only convince my underlings to side against me". Garon is a pioneer in "stupid evil", taking us to places no one could dream of.

12. This is going into "shoulda woulda" but I think Marx would acknowledge that regardless of whatever memories he had of the old Garon, the new one is very probably insane and needs to be stopped. He might try to investigate what is going on with his father or confront him over his more dastardly actions (such as sending Kamui on a suicide mission). It might take a while, considering he is an uber patriot but eventually (and before the convenient reveal that Garon is literally a monster, instead of just figuratively) he would rebel. Fire Emblem is full of situations where people have defected from their nation for its decadence.

13. Kamui was a spineless fool for thinking his actions were doing the world a net positive but equally at fault with him is Aqua for not taking greater steps to inform either Kamui or the other siblings of Garon's true identity or the larger conflict going on behind the scenes.

Before Revelations ruined the entire game, premise and future player confidence and made it painfully obvious there was only ever one real reason as to why they split up the game in several parts, I liked chapter six for actually taking its time making you feel like shit no matter what side you chose.

Also, Takumi's arrow in Kamui's face.

This is one of the best parts of Conquest. I'd say it's even more poignant than choosing Hoshido. When you choose Hoshido, it's clear Kamui still cares about his Nohr siblings and is just trying to end the conflict peacefully, while defending the more moral side. When you choose Nohr, you get the gut punch of turning your back on the family that had so long awaited your return.

A shame it goes downhill from there (the beginning).

Edited January 11, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

13. Kamui was a spineless fool for thinking his actions were doing the world a net positive but equally at fault with him is Aqua for not taking greater steps to inform either Kamui or the other siblings of Garon's true identity or the larger conflict going on behind the scenes.

Right, I almost forgot about her. Birthright and Conquest happen for one thing and one thing only: a lame excuse. Azura can't tell us all that she knows because of the plot curse.

Why this stops her from trying, I don't know, but if she just tried getting Kamui and co to Touma where she can talk freely, two thirds of this nonsense wouldn't even have happened.

[NekoKnight]

Right, I almost forgot about her. Birthright and Conquest happen for one thing and one thing only: a lame excuse. Azura can't tell us all that she knows because of the plot curse.

Why this stops her from trying, I don't know, but if she just tried getting Kamui and co to Touma where she can talk freely, two thirds of this nonsense wouldn't even have happened.

Conquest is a bit more tricky considering she is an outsider to the Nohrian siblings, but in Hoshido at least, you know she'd have the trust of her siblings (sans Takumi). She should have tried to get them to Touma before the game even begins.

Even in Conquest, she could have easily gotten Kamui to Touma, who could then in turn convince the Nohrian siblings to make the jump. And even IF, somehow all of this fails and no one trusts Aqua, at least she tried. Which is a lot more than she and Kamui did to prevent the war.

[Thane]

This is one of the best parts of Conquest. I'd say it's even more poignant than choosing Hoshido. When you choose Hoshido, it's clear Kamui still cares about his Nohr siblings and is just trying to end the conflict peacefully, while defending the more moral side. When you choose Nohr, you get the gut punch of turning your back on the family that had so long awaited your return.

A shame it goes downhill from there (the beginning).

I agree. I was actually really impressed by that. No matter what side you choose, everyone reacts as you'd expect them to, and they really don't shy away from making you feel bad, and it's the only time in the entire game where they don't care if the player could get slightly upset.

But once again, it's utterly destroyed by the inclusion of Revelations. It has no weight anymore.

Conquest is a bit more tricky considering she is an outsider to the Nohrian siblings, but in Hoshido at least, you know she'd have the trust of her siblings (sans Takumi). She should have tried to get them to Touma before the game even begins.

Even in Conquest, she could have easily gotten Kamui to Touma, who could then in turn convince the Nohrian siblings to make the jump. And even IF, somehow all of this fails and no one trusts Aqua, at least she tried. Which is a lot more than she and Kamui did to prevent the war.

That's the problem. While the curse seems ridiculous, out of place, strangely specific and just generally poorly explained, one of the biggest problems is that it's just not enough to deter Azura from not TRYING to do something about it. As shown in Conquest, she doesn't even need to jump off in that valley to enter Touma, and as shown by Kamui following her, nothing stops her from letting other people in.

And even IF she were unable to do all that, she could still just say "look, guys, there's more to this conflict", but she doesn't. She just goes with the flow even though she knowns everything worth knowing about the story.

And let's not forget the Three Idiots who also know the truth and even have magical orbs that let them return whenever they want, meaning that they stay and conquer Hoshido for...fun?

Edited January 11, 2016 by Thane

[Time the Crestfallen]

*Sharpens knife while staring at NekoKnight*

All jokes aside, the plot kinda falls apart at...I think it's Chapter 12, the one in Muse with the lake when Azura could've:

1-Opened the portal in the lake

2-Shown everyone the portal

3-Ask people to follow her into the portal

4-Explain the plot

5-???

6-Profit!

Edited January 11, 2016 by Phillius

[blinkingbrave]

I'm going to put this under spoilers mostly because I was able to answer a good number of these... though there are certainly spoilers that I'd think you'd know about if you're in the thread, I guess?

1-2

1) She's essentially around for My Castle stuff (plus a DLC chapter). Since she doesn't have the same plot relevance as other characters, it feels like the game kinda assumes you're getting attached to her through that. If you've got the game in your hands (or plan to), I thought going back to her shrine after her chapter made the whole thing more poignant, but that's just me.

2) Situational stuff regarding the position of the fox tribe vs the Hoshidan soldiers. It's been a lil while since I read everything though. Really, it probably had to do a lot more with the emotional drama of dropping Kamui down to build her back up to drop her down again... etc. Being able to save them all means no emotional conflict, and in this case, there's no Garon/Iago/Ganz to barge in and force an emotional conflict.

The others in that section I don't really remember/didn't pay attention to. Nitty-gritty stuff isn't really my thing, so someone else can probably answer it (or already has, didn't look at the thread toooo closely).

7-12

7) Beyond what's directly stated (like the faux-familial relationship, which tbh is more than enough for me, plus Garon putting Kamui in charge of all(?) the missions)... Well, there are certainly parts of the writing where the Nohr royals... read like abuse victims? Kamui is held up as their One Nice Thing (with Elise sometime featuring, too) a lot, with a lot of traits they've never been able to have/keep and want to protect... The poor things have pretty clearly been cowed into following other people/working to earn their approval for quite some time, too, and definitely have... 'subordinate' (As opposed to dominant. Marx is a good example.) traits/opinions that seem to extend from that... You mean justification like that?

8) Fun fact: The threat to kill Kamui is a mistranslation. It should actually read more along the lines of "If you're wrong, then 'they' (likely the army) will turn against you," with the heavy implication that he won't be able to protect her, iirc. Like I touched on in 7), there's definitely some implied abuse relationship going on (or that had happened in the past) with Garon-Marx. The idea that 'if I just do this one thing (get Father Hoshido), everything will get better' falls in with that. There's also some stuff with his ideals in there, the fact that this comes out of nowhere for him, plus more elaboration (because this is certainly a complex question), but if the crux of your issue was the mistranslation, I don't want to bore you. And if not, I can definitely elaborate on my interpretation further.

9) Aqua doesn't know any of Nohr royals, and Kamui catching on was more an accident than a plan.

10) I don't thiiiink so? It's nothing relevant/important to the story, at least. Leon may have been protecting Garon in/before Muse, maybe? And with Marx, I always assumed it was busy work to keep him from meddling any further and sending out more help to Kamui.

11) Iago starts as a pleasing/proving himself to Garon thing, but he definitely goes and monologues about her somewhere near the end of the game. I'm afraid I don't really remember the details, but her status (essentially a nobody that inexplicably had this power) I think came up. Which woooould definitely tie in to his own thirst for power, and add some jealousy into the mix. Plus, iirc, he's kinda frustrated at the end of the story anyways. Garon, I don't really remember, tbh. Initially, it's tied in to getting her to Hoshido, but when she comes back, I think it's more about getting her gone one way or another or maybe cowing her like his children. There are definitely a few other things I could spitball, buuuut it's been awhile since I read the story.

12) I think it's touched on more in Hoshido? Or at least foreshadowed or something. Sorry, the nitty-gritty stuff never sticks well with me.

13-14

13) He's the same character. Tbh, I thought it was nice that the supports and main dialogue for... a good deal of the royals everywhere, tbh, touched on different parts of their personality or the character in different situations, but that's just me. At any rate, I'll go ahead and point out that support Marx gets to interact with characters in a very different setting than story Marx. Support Marx isn't forced to converse with anyone while right in the middle of doing something he disagrees with, as opposed to story Marx, who's often in the process of carrying out his father's wishes or in his father's presence. And if he's not getting emotionally wreaked (which he usually is), then he's watching Kamui get emotionally wreaked (and that's usually what she's doing, too), which isn't exactly good for him either.

14) I mean... you can criticize whatever you want? Personally, I found it all justified, and the character writing in the story is pretty A+ as far as FE goes. It's a story about a poor group of kids in a really shitty situation, but if, at the root of it, having a naive protag is a turn-off to you, then it's a turn-off. No shame in that. Same if we actually disagree and you think the writing was bad.

Edited January 11, 2016 by blinkingbrave

[NekoKnight]

I agree. I was actually really impressed by that. No matter what side you choose, everyone reacts as you'd expect them to, and they really don't shy away from making you feel bad, and it's the only time in the entire game where they don't care if the player could get slightly upset.

But once again, it's utterly destroyed by the inclusion of Revelations. It has no weight anymore.

That's the problem. While the curse seems ridiculous, out of place, strangely specific and just generally poorly explained, one of the biggest problems is that it's just not enough to deter Azura from not TRYING to do something about it. As shown in Conquest, she doesn't even need to jump off in that valley to enter Touma, and as shown by Kamui following her, nothing stops her from letting other people in.

And even IF she were unable to do all that, she could still just say "look, guys, there's more to this conflict", but she doesn't. She just goes with the flow even though she knowns everything worth knowing about the story.

And let's not forget the Three Idiots who also know the truth and even have magical orbs that let them return whenever they want, meaning that they stay and conquer Hoshido for...fun?

We're in agreement. There were multiple ways to work around the curse but Aqua isn't shown to try any of them. Her "plan" basically amounted to doing nothing until the war is over, and Kamui is awful for agreeing to the "plan" without considering the alternatives or questioning if the plan will even work.

I wonder how Chrom, Cordelia and Olivia would have felt about their children assisting in the conquering of a peaceful nation....

*Sharpens knife while staring at NekoKnight*

All jokes aside, the plot kinda falls apart at...I think it's Chapter 12, the one in Muse with the lake when Azura could've:

1-Opened the portal in the lake

2-Shown everyone the portal

3-Ask people to follow her into the portal

4-Explain the plot

5-???

6-Profit!

[spoiler=At the risk of provoking a killer Troubadour...]

Wasn't it stated somewhere that only she and Kamui were able to travel to Touma via the lake? Eh, even without it, the beginning of Revelations shows that Kamui and Felicia/Joker were willing to jump into the Infinite Chasm, so it's not hard to imagine any of the other siblings doing it too, particularly Camilla.

[ghast]

I'm going to put this under spoilers mostly because I was able to answer a good number of these... though there are certainly spoilers that I'd think you'd know about if you're in the thread, I guess?

1-2

1) She's essentially around for My Castle stuff (plus a DLC chapter). Since she doesn't have the same plot relevance as other characters, it feels like the game kinda assumes you're getting attached to her through that. If you've got the game in your hands (or plan to), I thought going back to her shrine after her chapter made the whole thing more poignant, but that's just me.

2) Situational stuff regarding the position of the fox tribe vs the Hoshidan soldiers. It's been a lil while since I read everything though. Really, it probably had to do a lot more with the emotional drama of dropping Kamui down to build her back up to drop her down again... etc. Being able to save them all means no emotional conflict, and in this case, there's no Garon/Iago/Ganz to barge in and force an emotional conflict.

The others in that section I don't really remember/didn't pay attention to. Nitty-gritty stuff isn't really my thing, so someone else can probably answer it (or already has, didn't look at the thread toooo closely).

7-12

7) Beyond what's directly stated (like the faux-familial relationship, which tbh is more than enough for me, plus Garon putting Kamui in charge of all(?) the missions)... Well, there are certainly parts of the writing where the Nohr royals... read like abuse victims? Kamui is held up as their One Nice Thing (with Elise sometime featuring, too) a lot, with a lot of traits they've never been able to have/keep and want to protect... The poor things have pretty clearly been cowed into following other people/working to earn their approval for quite some time, too, and definitely have... 'subordinate' (As opposed to dominant. Marx is a good example.) traits/opinions that seem to extend from that... You mean justification like that?

8) Fun fact: The threat to kill Kamui is a mistranslation. It should actually read more along the lines of "If you're wrong, then 'they' (likely the army) will turn against you," with the heavy implication that he won't be able to protect her, iirc. Like I touched on in 7), there's definitely some implied abuse relationship going on (or that had happened in the past) with Garon-Marx. The idea that 'if I just do this one thing (get Father Hoshido), everything will get better' falls in with that. There's also some stuff with his ideals in there, the fact that this comes out of nowhere for him, plus more elaboration (because this is certainly a complex question), but if the crux of your issue was the mistranslation, I don't want to bore you. And if not, I can definitely elaborate on my interpretation further.

9) Aqua doesn't know any of Nohr royals, and Kamui catching on was more an accident than a plan.

10) I don't thiiiink so? It's nothing relevant/important to the story, at least. Leon may have been protecting Garon in/before Muse, maybe? And with Marx, I always assumed it was busy work to keep him from meddling any further and sending out more help to Kamui.

11) Iago starts as a pleasing/proving himself to Garon thing, but he definitely goes and monologues about her somewhere near the end of the game. I'm afraid I don't really remember the details, but her status (essentially a nobody that inexplicably had this power) I think came up. Which woooould definitely tie in to his own thirst for power, and add some jealousy into the mix. Plus, iirc, he's kinda frustrated at the end of the story anyways. Garon, I don't really remember, tbh. Initially, it's tied in to getting her to Hoshido, but when she comes back, I think it's more about getting her gone one way or another or maybe cowing her like his children. There are definitely a few other things I could spitball, buuuut it's been awhile since I read the story.

12) I think it's touched on more in Hoshido? Or at least foreshadowed or something. Sorry, the nitty-gritty stuff never sticks well with me.

13-14

13) He's the same character. Tbh, I thought it was nice that the supports and main dialogue for... a good deal of the royals everywhere, tbh, touched on different parts of their personality or the character in different situations, but that's just me. At any rate, I'll go ahead and point out that support Marx gets to interact with characters in a very different setting than story Marx. Support Marx isn't forced to converse with anyone while right in the middle of doing something he disagrees with, as opposed to story Marx, who's often in the process of carrying out his father's wishes or in his father's presence. And if he's not getting emotionally wreaked (which he usually is), then he's watching Kamui get emotionally wreaked (and that's usually what she's doing, too), which isn't exactly good for him either.

14) I mean... you can criticize whatever you want? Personally, I found it all justified, and the character writing in the story is pretty A+ as far as FE goes. It's a story about a poor group of kids in a really shitty situation, but if, at the root of it, having a naive protag is a turn-off to you, then it's a turn-off. No shame in that. Same if we actually disagree and you think the writing was bad.

Yeah. Lilith dying for sure seems like "you need to have played the story" thing to have any emotional impact. So I'll concede to that.

about the foxis) The emotional conflict is definitely what they were trying to pull with that. I don't really like how they tried to make that the emotional conflict because they wrote it in a way that ended up being, at least for me, "oh they died? Okay I guess."

for

7) so do you mean that they are like daddy's boys and girls? They just follow Garon's orders without question?

8) if even if it is a mistranslation I wonder if Marx would seriously let his adopted brother die at the hands of nohrians. It just seems to me that Marx is so flimsy and scared of his father and in the main story he doesn't really deviate from that until the very very end.

11) So evil villain is jealous evil villain! hehe

I think you mixed my 13 and 14 but yeah. i like the different perspective you offered for some of the questions

Edited January 11, 2016 by ghast

[blinkingbrave]

about the foxis) The emotional conflict is definitely what they were trying to pull with that. I don't really like how they tried to make that the emotional conflict because they wrote it in a way that ended up being, at least for me, "oh they died? Okay I guess."

for

7) so do you mean that they are like daddy's boys and girls? They just follow Garon's orders without question?

8) if even if it is a mistranslation I wonder if Marx would seriously let his adopted brother die at the hands of nohrians. It just seems to me that Marx is so flimsy and scared of his father and in the main story he doesn't really deviate from that until the very very end.

foxes) Yeah. You're into it or you're not. Since it ties all in with Kamui's over-arching issues, I enjoyed it, but I also enjoyed her over-arching issues.

7) I mean there's stuff that implies some degree of 'Garon did something to terrify his kids.' There's love in there, too, but there's also stuff that ranges across varying degrees of implication that led me to believe there's some sort of abuse or some relationship dynamic leading to a similar reaction that's gone on since they were children to some unknown (though the events in the plot kinda suggest to me present or close to) time. The royals relationship with their father clearly isn't familial, good, or healthy. Some good examples I'd pull would be some of the royals reaction to turning on Garon, pre and post reveal, iirc, how quick they were (or at least Leon) was to assume Garon sent the Nosferatu to kill them, same with how quick they were to take Garon's threats to Kamui very seriously, and a good deal of Marx's stuff (he seems to be the royal most tied to Garon) in general, like the DLC line where he says that as a child, the thought of being caught by his father out at night terrified him more than anything else.

Like... I think there's love there, too... And it's pretty clearly some kind of screwed up relationship... But if I had to pick an emotion, I'd go with fear for Elise, Leon, and Camilla at the least, with Marx being a more complicated mess. It's more like a 'if I don't follow Garon's orders, something bad will happen' situation, imo, with a few nuances for each character and Marx, once again, being a more tangled knot.

8) Yeah, I dunno. It'd probably go like the Hoshido route, where he goes easy on Kamui, or the pre-route split, where Leon just whisks Suzukaze and Rinka away. Who's to say?

As for Marx being flimsy/scared, I mean... yes, I think he is? I guess I don't really see that as bad, though. Once Marx knows the whole situation and realizes there's no fixing it, he's the first of the royals to act. Like I've said just up there, I find him a more complex form of his younger siblings' issues.

Edited January 11, 2016 by blinkingbrave

[Thane]

We're in agreement. There were multiple ways to work around the curse but Aqua isn't shown to try any of them. Her "plan" basically amounted to doing nothing until the war is over, and Kamui is awful for agreeing to the "plan" without considering the alternatives or questioning if the plan will even work.

I wonder how Chrom, Cordelia and Olivia would have felt about their children assisting in the conquering of a peaceful nation....

I'm starting to understand why Robin was so obsessed with strategy if this is the standard plan-making ability in the Fire Emblem multiverse.

"But muuuuuuuuuum, my boss told me to kill the innocent farmers to protect the glory of a slime monster!"

[ghast]

7) I mean there's stuff that implies some degree of 'Garon did something to terrify his kids.' There's love in there, too, but there's also stuff that ranges across varying degrees of implication that led me to believe there's some sort of abuse or some relationship dynamic leading to a similar reaction that's gone on since they were children to some unknown (though the events in the plot kinda suggest to me present or close to) time. The royals relationship with their father clearly isn't familial, good, or healthy. Some good examples I'd pull would be some of the royals reaction to turning on Garon, pre and post reveal, iirc, how quick they were (or at least Leon) was to assume Garon sent the Nosferatu to kill them, same with how quick they were to take Garon's threats to Kamui very seriously, and a good deal of Marx's stuff (he seems to be the royal most tied to Garon) in general, like the DLC line where he says that as a child, the thought of being caught by his father out at night terrified him more than anything else.

Like... I think there's love there, too... And it's pretty clearly some kind of screwed up relationship... But if I had to pick an emotion, I'd go with fear for Elise, Leon, and Camilla at the least, with Marx being a more complicated mess. It's more like a 'if I don't follow Garon's orders, something bad will happen' situation, imo, with a few nuances for each character and Marx, once again, being a more tangled knot.

I like your opinion on the siblings. I'm going to dig into the supports and see what opinions I come up with of my own

[Time the Crestfallen]

We're in agreement. There were multiple ways to work around the curse but Aqua isn't shown to try any of them. Her "plan" basically amounted to doing nothing until the war is over, and Kamui is awful for agreeing to the "plan" without considering the alternatives or questioning if the plan will even work.

I wonder how Chrom, Cordelia and Olivia would have felt about their children assisting in the conquering of a peaceful nation....

[spoiler=At the risk of provoking a killer Troubadour...]

Wasn't it stated somewhere that only she and Kamui were able to travel to Touma via the lake? Eh, even without it, the beginning of Revelations shows that Kamui and Felicia/Joker were willing to jump into the Infinite Chasm, so it's not hard to imagine any of the other siblings doing it too, particularly Camilla.

...

You better sleep with one eye open tonight m8

Also, I've never seen that anywhere. If only they could travel through the lake, couldn't she at least show them? You're right about the jump as well. At the very least, Camilla and Elise would follow Kamui. Sakura would probably follow Azura and Hinoka can fly down.

[ghast]

7) I mean there's stuff that implies some degree of 'Garon did something to terrify his kids.' There's love in there, too, but there's also stuff that ranges across varying degrees of implication that led me to believe there's some sort of abuse or some relationship dynamic leading to a similar reaction that's gone on since they were children to some unknown (though the events in the plot kinda suggest to me present or close to) time. The royals relationship with their father clearly isn't familial, good, or healthy. Some good examples I'd pull would be some of the royals reaction to turning on Garon, pre and post reveal, iirc, how quick they were (or at least Leon) was to assume Garon sent the Nosferatu to kill them, same with how quick they were to take Garon's threats to Kamui very seriously, and a good deal of Marx's stuff (he seems to be the royal most tied to Garon) in general, like the DLC line where he says that as a child, the thought of being caught by his father out at night terrified him more than anything else.

I just noticed that Marx in the translation literally says Garon would never harm his children. This whole conversation seems to imply that Garon was a really good dude. Maybe Marx fearing that Garon would find out if he snuck out more implies that he'd be super dissapointed in him or something?

[blinkingbrave]

I just noticed that Marx in the translation literally says Garon would never harm his children. This whole conversation seems to imply that Garon was a really good dude. Maybe Marx fearing that Garon would find out if he snuck out more implies that he'd be super dissapointed in him or something?

I'd need a reference point on where to look, mostly because I don't really remember that bit (sorry, it's definitely been a while) and context is important. Depending on where this is timeline-wise to everything else, it'd change how I'd approach it.

For the DLC line, it's the Spirit Mountain DLC, if you've got a reference you can look at other than my summarizing. Marx doesn't say Garon ~did~ anything if he found him, just that the sight of his father in the halls terrified him, and he was sure something bad would happen if he wasn't back from the restroom. With a good deal of ellipses and commas to mark hesitations.

Any rate, it's not out of line for victims of an unhealthy relationship to believe that the harmful acts of their victimizer aren't truly 'harmful,' and a lot of what it seems the Nohrian siblings did experience/are experiencing falls under emotional abuse. Garon not explicitly doing anything to Marx but still being terrifying to him/leading him to believe something terrible would happen if he was caught out of his room (not even doing anything wrong, just coming from the restroom) feels to me like a red flag. Particularly since Marx prefaces his whole little thing by explaining that, even as a child, things like tests of courage didn't terrify him. His father did.

Edit: Ahh, forgot to tie in to the emotional abuse bit: The original point I was going to mention is that the Nohrian royals don't have much of a good reference for a 'normal'/healthy emotional state anyways. Between whatever happened to them likely starting young enough for it to be essentially normal for them and Nohr being kinda a trash kingdom where everyone has a different problem for each finger, there's nothing to say (particularly since the characters involved skate around explicitly labelling their relationship with their father) the Nohrian royals even truly grasp how messed up their relationship with Garon is. Not until the end, where Marx is just disgusted with the mess.

Edited January 11, 2016 by blinkingbrave