Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[PuffPuff]

Except Corrin did grow up for a time with the Hoshidan siblings and had their memories erased, along with being backstabbed already beforehand by Garon due to a suicidal mission.

The Hoshidan siblings could have betrayed you, but they didn't.

Garon did.

I may care for siblings, but Garon lied to Corrin, basically tortured them as a kid, wiped their memories, and then tried to kill them off. That doesn't inspire loyalty in me.

He was tricked by Garon by giving him that fake dark sword which killed the queen not knowing that the sword was cursed unless going on the path of the Hoshido. The story said that he was taken since birth, so he had no memory of them whatsoever. So...what difference does it make if he sides with Nohr now when Ryoma was being forceful in Ch6. This further would scare him/her me away and will want to side with Nohr even more than before.

True.

They could have killed him/her newborn, but they didn't because of being the beloved queen's kid.

Other than the weapon which was cursed and killed mother, how else was he the Avatar's enemy all along?! Okay. He was shocked that you've returned if you choose Nohr and wanting to send you to suicidal missions and that Iago wanted the Avatar dead no matter which path you choose. He knows that your a traitor to Nohr by siding with them, but Garon giving you another chance is because of Anakos's decision. I cannot really say anything further as it would be a major spoiler at this point.

But...if you don't know it...what's the difference since what you don't know won't hurt you?! You've been with Selena, Effie, Niles, etc and the others since you were born. How is it any different if you side with Nohr now?! But...if the Avatar knows it...then it'd be a whole different story. He/She only knows it if he/she chooses a hard decision of siding with Hoshido (Who you absolutely don't know anyone there whatsoever except for Sakura, Rinkah and Hinoka whom you've got acquainted for a very short time in Ch3-5.) which they tell you later along the story. But...not knowing hardly...if no one tells you even further to stay away from that nation if they may plan to betray you later since you hardly...if not know them at all whatsoever.

But...if you don't know Garon's true intentions...how is it any different if you side with him?! It's not. Because he raised you since you were a child. But...having to prove your worth to make it like old times seems fine to me as well as the Avatar. It's not really all suicidal if Anakos ordered him to have the Avatar do it alone. Cuz...the Avatar would be dead otherwise! Others only helped him out were just a bonus. Sure he's wiped his childrens memories away...maybe. But...how is it any different if you don't know it?! It's not.

Garon (Beginning of Game)

As for the other kids...when was it that he tried to kill off his other offspring when clearly in Garon's profile it said that he was a loveable person before the game started?!

Good god I have to get the Eng version as soon as possible.

Edited February 4, 2016 by PuffPuff

[BruceLee]

I feel like a lot of Nohr's story could be fixed by Kamui not being a little noncommittal bitch and actually committing to the invasion. Maybe removing slime dad or make him actually treat Kamui like a child / with love. With those in place, it'd still be underwhelming and not make sense, but I don't think I'd have so much of a problem with it tbh.

Garon was always transparently evil. The only thing him being Gooron changed was the Nohrian siblings getting a get-out-of-guilt-free card for killing him. You also have Ganz and Macbeth to complete the trinity of evil that makes up the Nohrian leadership.

Slime Garon is one of my biggest gripes with the story. If Garon wasn't a slime what would the siblings have done at the end then? Because up till then they were fine condoning his horrible actions and invading an innocent country, killing innocents.

But then once slime Garon has been taken care of Xander is suddenly so sorry for all they've done and all peace-loving......

None.

Anyone would be scared to death to go with people they don't know. Haven't you've forgotten that it is war. People get formal all the time since betrayal is extremely common upon it. If these strangers trick you later, you've just paid the ultimate price of regretting your decision. I'd rather have Corrin stick with his/her brethren who are like brothers and sisters to him/her as well as me. Sure. This is spitting on Queeny's grave, but...it is war and we have to be cautious every step of the way!

Family over morality huh?

[PuffPuff]

Slime Garon is one of my biggest gripes with the story. If Garon wasn't a slime what would the siblings have done at the end then? Because up till then they were fine condoning his horrible actions and invading an innocent country, killing innocents.

But then once slime Garon has been taken care of Xander is suddenly so sorry for all they've done and all peace-loving......

Family over morality huh?

Continue to support and protect him since he is like a dad to them. To come up with this slime idea made it clear that Nintendo went lazy with the story at the end as this doesn't cut it for getting rid of all of the strife and chaos that Nohr has done to Hoshido. They should have looked into the matter of why that Garon hates Hoshido so much and wanting them dead. This don't cut it at all for giving them condolences. At all.

Which is sickening that he never not even once questioned the king beforehand. But...again...the writers went lazy with the end of the story. It would have been more pleasing if Xandar would wonder what purpose would we be invading Hoshido for in his mind. He can't say that to the king, or he'd be branded traitor and having a nice bloody axe meet his neck. Which almost would have happened to the Avatar twice before he/she had to show the king that his/her loyalty is real. (Ch10.) Because Iago tells the king to kill the Avatar time and time again for secretly hiding his/her treachery planning to overthrow him later.

Pretty much. Yes.

Edited February 4, 2016 by PuffPuff

[BruceLee]

Continue to support and protect him since he is like a dad to them. To come up with this slime idea made it clear that Nintendo went lazy with the story at the end as this doesn't cut it for getting rid of all of the strife and chaos that Nohr has done to Hoshido. They should have looked into the matter of why that Garon hates Hoshido so much and wanting them dead. This don't cut it at all for giving them condolences. At all.

So you agree then.

Which is sickening that he never not even once questioned the king beforehand. But...again...the writers went lazy with the end of the story. It would have been more pleasing if Xandar would wonder what purpose would we be invading Hoshido for in his mind. He can't say that to the king, or he'd be branded traitor and having a nice bloody axe meet his neck. Which almost would have happened to the Avatar twice before he/she had to show the king that his/her loyalty is real. (Ch10.) Because Iago tells the king to kill the Avatar time and time again for secretly hiding his/her treachery planning to overthrow him later.

You don't outright object to Garon of course, but surely there should have been other ways of dealing with it other than going along with invading an innocent country? Surely?

Pretty much. Yes.

If your family decides to go slaughter some innocents will you join them? Because family.

[PuffPuff]

So you agree then.

You don't outright object to Garon of course, but surely there should have been other ways of dealing with it other than going along with invading an innocent country? Surely?

If your family decides to go slaughter some innocents will you join them? Because family.

Nohr End Ch27 Beginning

Only because it's already too late. This is the fate on this path after all.

No.

Because it would lead to treason if the avatar questioned him any. What do you suggest that the situation should be handled?! Because I don't possibly see it any other way. That's why battling them cannot be avoided.

Avatar doesn't know it. What's the difference?! He/She doesn't know that they are innocent pups when he/she doesn't know them! Barely!

Edited February 4, 2016 by PuffPuff

[Alazen]

Here's a key problem with Conquest:

We are supposed to see Kamui as a shining paragon in every Path, yet Nohr is obviously the ''wrong'' side. So, the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't vilified for sticking with Nohr even after all the conquering. Team Kamui goes ahead with invading Hoshido so that Fake Garon can sit on a chair (or something)? That is apparently the best option after crystal ball (which conveniently breaks). Kamui's a party in Hoshido getting steamrolled? His surviving Hoshido siblings are apparently dandy with that while Ghost Takumi says how wrong he was to not worship Kamui.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Alazen

[BruceLee]

No.

Because it would lead to treason if the avatar questioned him any. What do you suggest that the situation should be handled?! Because I don't possibly see it any other way. That's why battling them cannot be avoided.

Are you serious? You really think going along with the murderous phychopath's plan is the best course of action they could have taken?

They could have gathered eveyone who isn't pro-Garon and deserted Nohr, working along with Hoshido to stop him. Just an example.

Avatar doesn't know it. What's the difference?! He/She doesn't know that they are innocent pups when he/she doesn't know them! Barely!

Hoshido is innocent by default since they haven't done Nohr anything wrong. So killing Hoshidans equals killing innocents. I can't believe i need to explain this to you.

Here's a key problem with Conquest:

We are supposed to see Kamui as a shining paragon in every Path, yet Nohr is obviously the ''wrong'' side. So, the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't vilified for sticking with Nohr even after all the conquering. Team Kamui goes ahead with invading Hoshido so that Fake Garon can sit on a chair (or something)? That is apparently the best option after crystal ball (which conveniently breaks). Kamui's a party in Hoshido getting steamrolled? His surviving Hoshido siblings are apparently dandy with that while Ghost Takumi says how wrong he was to not worship Kamui.

Exactly.

Edited February 4, 2016 by BruceLee

[PuffPuff]

Here's a key problem with Conquest:

We are supposed to see Kamui as a shining paragon in every Path, yet Nohr is obviously the ''wrong'' side. So, the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't vilified for sticking with Nohr even after all the conquering. Team Kamui goes ahead with invading Hoshido so that Fake Garon can sit on a chair (or something)? That is apparently the best option after crystal ball (which conveniently breaks). Kamui's a party in Hoshido getting steamrolled? His surviving Hoshido siblings are apparently dandy with that while Ghost Takumi says how wrong he was to not worship Kamui.

Nohr Ch27 End

Takumi is Garon's mindslave. Not that this made a difference since Takumi hated the Avatar since the beginning.

Are you serious? You really think going along with the murderous phychopath's plan is the best course of action they could have taken?

They could have gathered eveyone who isn't pro-Garon and deserted Nohr, working along with Hoshido to stop him. Just an example.

Hoshido is innocent by default since they haven't done Nohr anything wrong. So killing Hoshidans equals killing innocents. I can't believe i need to explain this to you.

Exactly.

Don't know it. That is why that this is being agreed upon.

They are softhearted to a fault that they are incapable of and devoid of evil. It would suck if Nintendo Of America actually made them more rebellous.

Shown in the 15 min GameXplain video proves that their original script will be kept. But...only grief will be found if the Avatar knows that they are innocent people in the end. But...he/she don't know it, so it doesn't make a difference.

-----

I have to get this game as soon as possible. (Eng Version)

THANK YOU FOR LEAVING THE BIRTHRIGHT SCRIPT ALONE, NINTENDO! YOU NOW CAN HAVE MY MONEY because skinship sucks and it should have never existed! The story, scripts, character names, cities and weapon changes are all I give a fuck about! :)

Edited February 4, 2016 by PuffPuff

[BruceLee]

Nohr Ch27 End

Takumi is Garon's mindslave. Not that this made a difference since Takumi hated the Avatar since the beginning.

Don't know it. That is why that this is being agreed upon.

They are softhearted to a fault that they are incapable of and devoid of evil. It would suck if Nintendo Of America actually makes them more rebellous.

Shown in the 15 min GameXplain video proves that their original script will be kept. But...only grief will be found if the Avatar knows that they are innocent people in the end. But...he/she don't know it, so it doesn't make a difference.

-----

I have to get this game as soon as possible. (Eng Version)

THANK YOU FOR LEAVING THE BIRTHRIGHT SCRIPT ALONE, NINTENDO! YOU NOW CAN HAVE MY MONEY because skinship sucks and it should have never existed!

I'm confused. Why would Kamui assume they are not innocent by default? You think someone is not innocent because you don't know them?

If you attack and kill people who have done you no wrong, then you have attacked and killed innocents.

[PuffPuff]

I'm confused. Why would Kamui assume they are not innocent by default? You think someone is not innocent because you don't know them?

If you attack and kill people who have done you no wrong, then you have attacked and killed innocents.

Kamui is blinded to what Hoshido really is...

He/She only knew his/her mother and Sakura(a little). That's it! Ask yourself this...Is it sad if your blinded to this truth..?!

Yes.

But...if you realise it later...it'll....

That is why Garon is keeping this from Corrin/Kamui. Corrin only went apeshit in Ch5 is because his mother is all he/she knew in the Hoshido kingdom. But with Mother dead...there is no point in being in Hoshido anymore. That is why that Garon had given the Avatar the cursed sword kill her. (Not knowing that the sword was cursed)

Thank God I can read some Japanese as well as looking at the main details on Fire Emblem wikipedia to enjoy the Japanese version to the fullest. This game may rival with Chrono Trigger, if not Genealogy. I'm buying this game...are you?

Edited February 4, 2016 by PuffPuff

[NekoKnight]

I tried to read Ayanami's posts but gave up, lol.

Here's a key problem with Conquest:

We are supposed to see Kamui as a shining paragon in every Path, yet Nohr is obviously the ''wrong'' side. So, the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't vilified for sticking with Nohr even after all the conquering. Team Kamui goes ahead with invading Hoshido so that Fake Garon can sit on a chair (or something)? That is apparently the best option after crystal ball (which conveniently breaks). Kamui's a party in Hoshido getting steamrolled? His surviving Hoshido siblings are apparently dandy with that while Ghost Takumi says how wrong he was to not worship Kamui.

If they were going to make Kamui complicit in the invasion, I would have preferred a setting where Hoshido didn't have any hope of winning, so it would be kinder to assist the invasion and spare as many as possible rather than have the conflict drawn out. The problem is, because Birthright is a thing, we KNOW that Hoshido can win the war if Kamui fights for them. So Kamui objectively made things worse by siding with Nohr. To top it off, Kamui's goal of defeating Garon is the same for both routes so he might as well fight on the just side.

Slime Garon is one of my biggest gripes with the story. If Garon wasn't a slime what would the siblings have done at the end then? Because up till then they were fine condoning his horrible actions and invading an innocent country, killing innocents.

Probably nothing. Marx supported the invasion because he thought Garon would return to his old self after taking Hoshido (Yes, a war of aggression was started because Marx didn't want to sort out his family drama privately). If all the things that happen during the war weren't enough to convince Marx that Daddy was bad news, I don't know what the turning point would be.

Maybe he would assist Garon in the invasion of Elibe and Tellius? Or he would slowly ween Garon off conquering and take Garon to Conquerors Anonymous.

Edited February 4, 2016 by NekoKnight

[BruceLee]

Probably nothing. Marx supported the invasion because he thought Garon would return to his old self after taking Hoshido (Yes, a war of aggression was started because Marx didn't want to sort out his family drama privately). If all the things that happen during the war weren't enough to convince Marx that Daddy was bad news, I don't know what the turning point would be.

Maybe he would assist Garon in the invasion of Elibe and Tellius? Or he would slowly ween Garon off conquering and take Garon to Conquerors Anonymous.

He would probably be ok with his father eating babies for dinner, until he finds out he's a slime monster. Cause then he needs to be stopped!

lol.

[Alazen]

Going with trying to make the conflict between the two kingdoms muddier, I say that Kamui's Big Choice could have been better if it was framed with Nohr still being all conquering, but Kamui going Hoshido is thanks to a Hoshidan or allied character luring him away with making sure he'll get a position in Hoshido's royal family. Garon can still harsh on Kamui, but without Operation Cry.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Alazen

[Ledrert]

Going with trying to make the conflict between the two kingdoms muddier, I say that Kamui's Big Choice could have been better if it was framed with Nohr still being all conquering, but Kamui going Hoshido is thanks to a Hoshidan or allied character luring him away with making sure he'll get a position in Hoshido's royal family. Garon can still harsh on Kamui, but without Operation Cry.

Ah ah, that's a point of view discutable. But... Bah... It's a little extreme. x)

[arvilino]

He would probably be ok with his father eating babies for dinner, until he finds out he's a slime monster. Cause then he needs to be stopped!

lol.

Garon is a cruel ruler during the events game but really nothing on that scale actually really happens. It's not like say for example Sacred Stones where Grado sets monsterous spiders to attack villagers including children(chapter 6). Plus even after he's revealed as a slime monster they're hesistant to actually fight him, since he's their father.

https://fateswartable.wordpress.com/2015/12/24/nohr-chapter-27-the-hollow-king/#more-247

Additionally Considering Nohr already controlled/had power most of its surrounding countries I don't see why Nohr engaging in a war to subdue Hoshido would be crossing a line for a character like Xander especially considering a translation of his perspective of Justice during War in chapter 24:

I know. You don’t actually

intend to follow those orders.

…Kamui.

Before this, you… I heard

from Camilla that you asked

where justice is found.

…Things like justice do not

exist.

This is war. In this world,

there is no right or wrong

way of being. There is only…

ambition and desire.

Moreover, it is what is

expected. You would do well

to remember that.

Similarly in the Hoshido route after beating Garon

https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/fire-emblem-fates-hoshido-story-summary/

Garon calmly regrets not having killed Kamui back when they were kidnapped. Kamui asks why Garon did not. Garon remarks originally for the sake of his plan to kill Mikoto, but also because he felt something back then, something he figures must have been for his ambitions, but is not quite sure anymore

The statements about ambitions on both separate routes. I think in the attempt to want Nohr to have a "reason" for the conflict I think people have forgotten that the Nohr are the "Glory Seeking Nohr" as first revealed. Real Garon had a motivation and considering Xander's perspective the war conquering Hoshido may have always been part of Garon's ambitions and conquering a country may not be something the rest of Nohr didn't see as out of the ordinary to begin with. The only difference on Real Garon's and Slime Garon's perspective on the conflict is the shift in goals: Slime Garon wanted to conquer Hoshido then destroy it and then destroy Nohr afterwards but masks it throughout the game by stating he only wishes to conquer it.

Edited February 4, 2016 by arvilino

[BruceLee]

Look i see what you're saying, but it's simply not executed properly. If the writers wanted us to see Xander as someone who is ok with these actions, fine. I would dislike his character, but i wouldn't call him a bad character.

But the way the game is written it's like one moment he is fine with invading an innocent country, and the next moment we should see him as a peace-loving guy who is against stuff like that. The writers should have stuck to one viewpoint and rolled with it, not go bouncing around from one to another. And it's not just the case with Xander only, it's the case with the enitre Nohr path.

Edited February 4, 2016 by BruceLee

[arvilino]

Look i see what you're saying, but it's simply not executed properly. If the writers wanted us to see Xander as someone who is ok with these actions, fine. I would dislike his character, but i wouldn't call him a bad character.

But the way the game is written it's like one moment he is fine with invading an innocent country, and the next moment we should see him as a peace-loving guy who is against stuff like that. The writers should have stuck to one viewpoint and rolled with it, not go bouncing around from one to another. And it's not just the case with Xander only, it's the case with the enitre Nohr path.

That next moment is the epilogue of the game when Nohr and Hoshido are allies. Throughout the main story he's fine with being at war with Hoshido and see them as his enemies and he never openly regrets fighting against them, his biggest bugbear during the war(which ends after chapter 25) is that he was disgusted the way Iago's side of the Nohr forces were being lead but he was never against fighting a war against enemies.

If Iago didn't carry out cowardly tactics, Xander as he is in the game would likely have had absolutely no reservations at all against an honourable war until the chapter 27 reveal. I don't really understand how you'd see it the way you do in the bolded text.

Edited February 4, 2016 by arvilino

[BruceLee]

That next moment is the epilogue of the game when Nohr and Hoshido are allies. Throughout the main story he's fine with being at war with Hoshido and see them as his enemies and he never openly regrets fighting against them, his biggest bugbear during the war(which ends after chapter 25) is that he was disgusted the way Iago's side of the Nohr forces were being lead but he was never against fighting a war against enemies.

If Iago didn't carry out cowardly tactics, Xander as he is in the game would likely have had absolutely no reservations at all against an honourable war until the chapter 27 reveal. I don't really understand how you'd see it the way you do in the bolded text.

Does it matter how they are being led? Macbeth kills unarmed Hoshidans and Xander does not yeah, but does that make him attacking an innocent nation and killing it's innocent people not a bad thing?

And then at the end of the game he's telling Hinoka how sorry he is for all the lives they've taken and the game tries to show him as a good guy who's all about peace.

[SalShich10N]

I am more irritated at how Kamui is a little bitch about the whole thing and how thoughtlessly black and white the plot is, when this game in particular should be more grey. Hoshido story angers me too, gravely. Like how come Nohr is more interesting in the Hoshdio route and Hoshido is more interesting in the Nohr route? It's like they guilt trip you after picking a path so you buy the other one as well and once you spent your 80 dollars on it you're never satisfied with the plot.

I actually wanted to have fun conquering and dominating a country of nips, goddamn it!

[arvilino]

Does it matter how they are being led? Macbeth kills unarmed Hoshidans and Xander does not yeah, but does that make him attacking an innocent nation and killing it's innocent people not a bad thing?

And then at the end of the game he's telling Hinoka how sorry he is for all the lives they've taken and the game tries to show him as a good guy who's all about peace.

I'm not saying him attacking Hoshido is right since I'm talking about his characterisation. His involvement in the war something reasonable within his characterisation, he saw Hoshido ultimately as the enemy in a war they've been engaged in throughout the story until the end in which case Nohr and Hoshido end up as allies.

He's a character who'd wished to fight what he believed to be a just war with his enemies, but also work towards peace alongside his allies. He hoped in vain that resolution of the conflict would change things back to normal which backfired against him as he was overlooking Garon's/Nohr's atrocities along the way. So in the end he did what he thought he believed was right for true peace both while fighting on the side of Nohr and when apologising for Nohr's actions.

[BruceLee]

I'm not saying him attacking Hoshido is right since I'm talking about his characterisation. His involvement in the war something reasonable within his characterisation, he saw Hoshido ultimately as the enemy in a war they've been engaged in throughout the story until the end in which case Nohr and Hoshido end up as allies.

He's a character who'd wished to fight what he believed to be a just war with his enemies, but also work towards peace alongside his allies. He hoped in vain that resolution of the conflict would change things back to normal which backfired against him as he was overlooking Garon's/Nohr's atrocities along the way. So in the end he did what he thought he believed was right for true peace both while fighting on the side of Nohr and when apologising for Nohr's actions.

You're just making excuses now. If Xander feels invading an innocent country is just then fine, let him think that. That doesn't mean i will think the same and forgive him for his actions. And that's where the problem lies. The game tries to shove it in our faces that he is a good guy anyway and he's forgiven just like that. Even though any sane person won't accept that.

Again, this is not only the case for Xander but the Nohr path as a whole.

[NeonZ]

You're just making excuses now. If Xander feels invading an innocent country is just then fine, let him think that. That doesn't mean i will think the same and forgive him for his actions. And that's where the problem lies. The game tries to shove it in our faces that he is a good guy anyway and he's forgiven just like that. Even though any sane person won't accept that.

Again, this is not only the case for Xander but the Nohr path as a whole.

In the Nohr route, after Marx and the Nohr army leaves with Kamui, you still get the Hoshido army going in an offensive war, a long time before Nohr actually beings its real offensive against them. Yet, the game never calls them out on that either. Hoshido's army marching into another country (and "hostilities" are mentioned so they must have killed people to get there) is an irrelevant event that's never brought up against Hoshido by anyone in the game.

It's not only the Nohr playable characters that are white washed, Hoshido as a whole receives the same benefit.

Edited February 4, 2016 by NeonZ

[NekoKnight]

In the Nohr route, after Marx and the Nohr army leaves with Kamui, you still get the Hoshido army going in an offensive war, a long time before Nohr actually beings its real offensive against them. Yet, the game never calls them out on that either. Hoshido's army marching into another country (and "hostilities" are mentioned so they must have killed people to get there) is an irrelevant event that's never brought up against Hoshido by anyone in the game.

It's not only the Nohr playable characters that are white washed, Hoshido as a whole receives the same benefit.

To be fair, as far as anyone knows, Mikoto, the queen of Hoshido, is assassinated by Nohrian agents using a sword given by none other than the king of Nohr. Then Marx leads a host into Hoshido in order to recapture a Hoshidan prince. Nohr triggered the war, not Hoshido.

[Fyras4]

To be fair, as far as anyone knows, Mikoto, the queen of Hoshido, is assassinated by Nohrian agents using a sword given by none other than the king of Nohr. Then Marx leads a host into Hoshido in order to recapture a Hoshidan prince. Nohr triggered the war, not Hoshido.

Weren't they already at war, though? And it just escalated to a full blown conflict at the start of the game?

[NekoKnight]

Weren't they already at war, though? And it just escalated to a full blown conflict at the start of the game?

I think it's mentioned they have occasional border skirmishes but Nohrian forces can't enter Hoshido proper until after Mikoto dies because of her magic barrier.