Magikarpador Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 King Garon is being controlled by a demon and has been this whole time. The only way to heal him is for him to sit on Hoshido throne as it will restore his true mind. And of course, the only way to get him on the throne is to conquer Hoshido. Corriin then gives this quote: "... My happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world. I will continue to fight for Nohr and follow my father's every command. If I must sacrifice my soul and walk the path of evil to end this war, so be it. Even if no one understands why I'm doing this... Even if they grow to hate me..." I don't understand this at all, he'd rather kill dozens of innocents and directly attack his family just to save his father who, depending on how long he'd been possessed, Corrin might not even know. This is stupid, why doesn't he just kill King Garon? We have seen everyone who would inherit the throne, so we know Nohr would be in good hands. Is he somehow too powerful for even our whole army working together to be unable to kill? Because if so, why isn't he fighting this war himself? And you can't say he's so heavily guarded because you're invited to see him alone quite often. Perhaps there could be guards there, but even then, your siblings can help too. Also, why would the demon want to conquer Hoshido if sitting on the throne will make him go away? Also, even if King Garon is restored, it doesn't make all the tensions go away, many many will still hate him and you and your whole country at this point. There is no way to justify your army's skirmishes now. You should be fighting against him, not for him. If this stuff is explained later or in other stories then I'd appreciate it being spoiler tagged as I want to see it firsthand for myself, but as it stands, I just don't get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I wish I could tell you something positive, but I can't; I had the same thoughts when I played through Conquest in June/July. The core problem of Fates is its dreadful writing and story structure, and these reactions have been anticipated for a long time. Without any spoilers, I'll say that it only gets worse from here, and while additional paths may shed a bit more light on the whole ordeal, it's not far, far from sufficient. Even people who like the story tend to dislike Garon for...well...this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) Going against Garon would just change things from an invasion through Hoshido to a civil war through Nohr. I really wish the localization had given more emphasis on protecting Nohr at that point of Kamui's speech, since his choice is basically sacrificing Hoshido for Nohr, but they basically changed nothing there... Edited February 24, 2016 by NeonZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magikarpador Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 I wish I could tell you something positive, but I can't; I had the same thoughts when I played through Conquest in June/July. The core problem of Fates is its dreadful writing and story structure, and these reactions have been anticipated for a long time. Without any spoilers, I'll say that it only gets worse from here, and while additional paths may shed a bit more light on the whole ordeal, it's not far, far from sufficient. Even people who like the story tend to dislike Garon for...well...this. That's really a shame... I was quite enjoying the plot up until this point. Ah well, at least the game gets two other chances to tell a good story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magikarpador Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) Going against Garon would just change things from an invasion through Hoshido to a civil war through Nohr. I really wish the localization had given more emphasis on protecting Nohr at that point of Kamui's speech, since his choice is basically sacrificing Hoshido for Nohr, but they basically changed nothing there... I still feel that would have made more sense, I mean, the promotions say you're trying to fix the corruptions in Nohr from the inside and that's exactly what you'd be doing. But if you do just kill him and then Xander becomes the king, I don't see how that would cause too much discourse unless a large faction of Nohr was loyal to Lago. I'd still rather be having that fight then fighting against Hoshido who seems to be mostly innocent in the war. Edited February 24, 2016 by Magikarpador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyOurBoy Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 King Garon is being controlled by a demon and has been this whole time. The only way to heal him is for him to sit on Hoshido throne as it will restore his true mind. And of course, the only way to get him on the throne is to conquer Hoshido. Corriin then gives this quote: "... My happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world. I will continue to fight for Nohr and follow my father's every command. If I must sacrifice my soul and walk the path of evil to end this war, so be it. Even if no one understands why I'm doing this... Even if they grow to hate me..." I don't understand this at all, he'd rather kill dozens of innocents and directly attack his family just to save his father who, depending on how long he'd been possessed, Corrin might not even know. This is stupid, why doesn't he just kill King Garon? We have seen everyone who would inherit the throne, so we know Nohr would be in good hands. Is he somehow too powerful for even our whole army working together to be unable to kill? Because if so, why isn't he fighting this war himself? And you can't say he's so heavily guarded because you're invited to see him alone quite often. Perhaps there could be guards there, but even then, your siblings can help too. Also, why would the demon want to conquer Hoshido if sitting on the throne will make him go away? Also, even if King Garon is restored, it doesn't make all the tensions go away, many many will still hate him and you and your whole country at this point. There is no way to justify your army's skirmishes now. You should be fighting against him, not for him. If this stuff is explained later or in other stories then I'd appreciate it being spoiler tagged as I want to see it firsthand for myself, but as it stands, I just don't get it... I'm about where you are. I was wondering about this to, but I was under the impression that they were going to bring him to that throne to reveal his true form to his siblings. After that they were going to kill him. From what I'm gathering, the king might be too strong to kill and Corrin might also be afraid to kill him because his siblings may not understand. Not the best reason on the world to not go kill the king, I know, but we're not Corrin. Personally I would just go kill the king and show my siblings his rotted demon corpse. Btw I hope this spoiler tag works, I've never used one before, just copied what it said in the quote box above :P So there's my thoughts on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magikarpador Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 I'm about where you are. I was wondering about this to, but I was under the impression that they were going to bring him to that throne to reveal his true form to his siblings. After that they were going to kill him. From what I'm gathering, the king might be too strong to kill and Corrin might also be afraid to kill him because his siblings may not understand. Not the best reason on the world to not go kill the king, I know, but we're not Corrin. Personally I would just go kill the king and show my siblings his rotted demon corpse. Btw I hope this spoiler tag works, I've never used one before, just copied what it said in the quote box above :P So there's my thoughts on it. I got the impression that by revealing his true form it meant it would return him back to normal rather than just showing the demon inside of him. If that were the case, it wouldn't really make sense as Corrin has said several times how he's against all this fighting and bloodshed, so would he really sacrifice a bunch of Hoshidian lives just so he can kill some more? Plus Corrin and his siblings seem to pretty close and understanding, and they all recognize how corrupt Garon is, Corrin has been trustworthy so far so if he just told him what was going on they'd most likely believe him and aid him. I know he can't talk about that other world, but he doesn't have to explain how he knows this. Or it could even be said that he knows because of the way he reacted to Azura's song, which it's suggest that the only reason he was hurt by it was because he's a demon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I still feel that would have made more sense, I mean, the promotions say you're trying to fix the corruptions in Nohr from the inside and that's exactly what you'd be doing. But if you do just kill him and then Xander becomes the king, I don't see how that would cause too much discourse unless a large faction of Nohr was loyal to Lago. I'd still rather be having that fight then fighting against Hoshido who seems to be mostly innocent in the war. I don't think Corrin by that point of the game can even walk up to Garon and just kill him. Garon does have in-game stats... It'd need to be a general war effort to bring him down, and by that point Corrin could even end up facing some of the Nohr siblings, which would kill the entire point of siding with Nohr in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Handsome Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 It only gets worse. Only Hoshido has a passable story which makes you sympathize with Hoshido and Nohr. Revelation makes you scratch your head at how dumb Azura is and the prequel dlc for it will make you hate the 3 Awakening brats a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyOurBoy Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I got the impression that by revealing his true form it meant it would return him back to normal rather than just showing the demon inside of him. If that were the case, it wouldn't really make sense as Corrin has said several times how he's against all this fighting and bloodshed, so would he really sacrifice a bunch of Hoshidian lives just so he can kill some more? Plus Corrin and his siblings seem to pretty close and understanding, and they all recognize how corrupt Garon is, Corrin has been trustworthy so far so if he just told him what was going on they'd most likely believe him and aid him. I know he can't talk about that other world, but he doesn't have to explain how he knows this. Or it could even be said that he knows because of the way he reacted to Azura's song, which it's suggest that the only reason he was hurt by it was because he's a demon. Tbh what you're saying makes more sense. From your point of view I can offer one good reason as to why Corrin is doing this. The theme of Nohr is family, family above all else. Exactly how far is he willing to go to save someone he loves, even if that someone has become this corrupted. I might have just misunderstood what they were saying :P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magikarpador Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 I don't think Corrin by that point of the game can even walk up to Garon and just kill him. Garon does have in-game stats... It'd need to be a general war effort to bring him down, and by that point Corrin could even end up facing some of the Nohr siblings, which would kill the entire point of siding with Nohr in the first place. I suppose you have a valid point, but I still wouldn't say the next thing one would jump to is conquering Hoshido. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magikarpador Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 Tbh what you're saying makes more sense. From your point of view I can offer one good reason as to why Corrin is doing this. The theme of Nohr is family, family above all else. Exactly how far is he willing to go to save someone he loves, even if that someone has become this corrupted. I might have just misunderstood what they were saying :P. By choosing Nohr over Hoshido it means you value family as a concept of bonds and love over family as a concept of blood. You clearly have no bonds or love with Garon. I mean, it's even said he wouldn't hesitate to kill any of his children if they disobeyed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 They did. It's stupid. I knew about it 7 months ago. Half-way point? More like half-assed point. Only in it for the gameplay. But really, there are so many things wrong here that seem to fall in line with what one would expect from the spitballed initial draft. When exactly did Azura grab the crystal ball? Why did it break? And what's stopping her from grabbing another one and showing the Nohr sibs? And why are they now so scared of Garon that they have to just comply with his demands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyOurBoy Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) By choosing Nohr over Hoshido it means you value family as a concept of bonds and love over family as a concept of blood. You clearly have no bonds or love with Garon. I mean, it's even said he wouldn't hesitate to kill any of his children if they disobeyed him.You're right, bonds and love, but that's what makes them your family. No matter how far you fall, family is the only thing that will still be there for you. You know as well as I at this point that the only reason his children listen to humid because he rules out of fear. Still, they don't seem to be afraid to defy him, as Leo showed us. I might be wrong, but I think there is still more to it. We never met the real king, all we've seen is the corrupt one. We don't know how he was like before, the corruption may have even started when he kidnapped Corrin as a child. It might be his children don't gather everyone who wants to put him down together and overthrow him because they still have some love for him. This might also apply to Corrin, or at least Corrin doesn't want to kill him because he doesn't want to break the bond his brothers and sisters are trying so desperately to keep intact. To do so he's willing to slaughter and start a war, walk the very path of evil itself. Atleast on the surface, I bet he's still going to be merciful throughout the game :P. Of course, we'll see if that is the case as the story progresses. I know this is all a stretch, but hey, I'm trying XD Edited February 24, 2016 by RoyOurBoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceLee Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) King Garon is being controlled by a demon and has been this whole time. The only way to heal him is for him to sit on Hoshido throne as it will restore his true mind. And of course, the only way to get him on the throne is to conquer Hoshido. Corriin then gives this quote: "... My happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world. I will continue to fight for Nohr and follow my father's every command. If I must sacrifice my soul and walk the path of evil to end this war, so be it. Even if no one understands why I'm doing this... Even if they grow to hate me..." I don't understand this at all, he'd rather kill dozens of innocents and directly attack his family just to save his father who, depending on how long he'd been possessed, Corrin might not even know. This is stupid, why doesn't he just kill King Garon? We have seen everyone who would inherit the throne, so we know Nohr would be in good hands. Is he somehow too powerful for even our whole army working together to be unable to kill? Because if so, why isn't he fighting this war himself? And you can't say he's so heavily guarded because you're invited to see him alone quite often. Perhaps there could be guards there, but even then, your siblings can help too. Also, why would the demon want to conquer Hoshido if sitting on the throne will make him go away? Also, even if King Garon is restored, it doesn't make all the tensions go away, many many will still hate him and you and your whole country at this point. There is no way to justify your army's skirmishes now. You should be fighting against him, not for him. If this stuff is explained later or in other stories then I'd appreciate it being spoiler tagged as I want to see it firsthand for myself, but as it stands, I just don't get it... I still feel that would have made more sense, I mean, the promotions say you're trying to fix the corruptions in Nohr from the inside and that's exactly what you'd be doing. But if you do just kill him and then Xander becomes the king, I don't see how that would cause too much discourse unless a large faction of Nohr was loyal to Lago. I'd still rather be having that fight then fighting against Hoshido who seems to be mostly innocent in the war. I got the impression that by revealing his true form it meant it would return him back to normal rather than just showing the demon inside of him. If that were the case, it wouldn't really make sense as Corrin has said several times how he's against all this fighting and bloodshed, so would he really sacrifice a bunch of Hoshidian lives just so he can kill some more? Plus Corrin and his siblings seem to pretty close and understanding, and they all recognize how corrupt Garon is, Corrin has been trustworthy so far so if he just told him what was going on they'd most likely believe him and aid him. I know he can't talk about that other world, but he doesn't have to explain how he knows this. Or it could even be said that he knows because of the way he reacted to Azura's song, which it's suggest that the only reason he was hurt by it was because he's a demon. I can already tell based on everything you've said that you're only gonna be even more disappointed by the direction the story takes. Edited February 24, 2016 by BruceLee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I hate how noble they try to make Kamui sound here. "My happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world." Oh, is that the only price that has to be paid to restore Garon? Not going to mention all the suffering you will cause by supporting AN INVASION? It is mind-boggling how THIS is what the writers came up for an excuse to be on the invader team. The conquest could have been about anything else but they chose the story that relies on the most contrivances, the most insane troll logic and the most loathsome protagonist that could ever be conceived while still purporting that he is a hero. I will never not be mad about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolvir Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) I got to that part last night. It amazed me that with that single chapter they changed the whole thing, and how different it could of been with the smallest thing. Why didn't they just have Azura wait until all of the Nohr Royals were together to show all of them what is wrong with Garon? With how they have written the royals in localization, they would likely believe her if she showed them too. It would completely turn from "oh now we need to invade Hoshido" and into trying to sabotage Garon's plans and end him. It would of made for some interesting chapters where you could have Hoshido and Nohr fighting each other, with your group caught in the middle trying to sabotage Garon's plans while having to fight both. That is what is so annoying, the entire story of conquest falls apart, when it was such an easy fix for that plot hole. I feel like they wanted to make Garon the big bad the entire time, but wanted to have each of the paths consist of fighting the other, so while it worked for Birthright, Conquest got the short end of the stick. It sucks because Conquest had an interesting situation going, and if this one problem was fixed, would of had a great story. Edited February 24, 2016 by Tolvir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katryn Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The moment something you "need" to do involves taking another's life, your happiness, quite frankly, doesn't mean crap. Why do I get the feeling I'm going to be using Conquest as editing and plot analysis training once I'm done actually playing it? I'm also interested in taking these games and looking at them beside FFIV like I did in a spoiler a few days ago. I've already found more stuff relating to that whole parallel / theory. There are so many good things about Conquest--interesting map design, aesthetic, characters, *potential* premise, gameplay, etc. And they sound like they took all the good they had and threw it away on an absolutely craptacular plot. Very disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryas Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) Corrin has neither the power nor the manpower to kill King Garon on his own. What do you expect? Do you think his siblings will agree to help him kill King Garon just because Azura said that he's actually a slime monster? Do you think that would be an easy task to do even with their support when the King has the backing of the main army and many, many elite troops? The story itself makes it clear that the player's army is just the vanguard for the main invasion force which is many times bigger, they would not stand a chance if they were to directly go up against Garon and his men, especially when they're in the middle of war with Hoshido. Edited February 24, 2016 by Ryas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Corrin has neither the power nor the manpower to kill King Garon on his own. What do you expect? Do you think his siblings will agree to help him kill King Garon just because Azura said that he's actually a slime monster? Do you think that would be an easy task to do even with their support when the King has the backing of the main army and many, many elite troops? The story itself makes it clear that the player's army is just the vanguard for the main invasion force which is many times bigger, they would not stand a chance if they were to directly go up against Garon and his men, especially when they're in the middle of war with Hoshido. I don't understand this argument in the slightest; do you propose all of the protagonists just give up because they don't have a chance? First of all, what kind of story would that even be? Secondly, by shifting all of the blame to the nature of Garon, any and all complexity is removed from the villain since you're essentially killing a monster rather than a person with credible motives - what's worse, since this is not discussed in the slightest, it also even removes the characters' reaction to this until the last minute which removes the buildup to the final confrontation. Thirdly, although I don't like invoking this argument often since I don't like a reliance of tropes, but this is Fire Emblem! People defecting or fighting against impossible odds and mad kings and emperors is in, I believe, literally every game. Look at how Sacred Stone handled it, for instance: an emperor suddenly goes ballistic and invades another nation, and what happens? Everyone starts questioning him but the game lets us know WHY some of them still choose to fight for him in spite of all the bloodshed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryas Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 No, but you do expect protagonists to follow a plan which at least has a chance of succeeding and improving the situation over taking a defiant stance that serves no point except getting you killed. Even with King Garon's true nature aside it would be difficult to convince the siblings that Garon must be killed. Xander and Leo respect the man for who he was before and Camilla is too afraid of him to defy him. They're all coping with having to deal with the Garon as he is now and no matter what they may say about trusting Azura it would be equally stupid writing for them to be so easily convinced by a former Hoshidan captive that their king is a monster and must be killed, and even Corrin would end up losing some credit with them since, again, no matter how much they say they trust Corrin, it might put some sneaking suspicion in the back of their mind that the plan to assassinate Garon is a Hoshidan plot. That this is not considered or discussed at all, not even by Azura when Corrin suggests telling the others, IS a failure of the writing, that much is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshcja Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) Why are people till getting upset over FE plots all leading to "capture x country hold hands sing kumbyah kill evil darkness" Characters make the story and conquest has some great ones...(nohr is totally evil look at how evil they are with their evil...who is...oh god JUSTICE!!! NOOOOO rip lord lobster 2016) Edited February 24, 2016 by joshcja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Wait... shouldn't this thread title read "Dropped the crystal ball?" *excuses himself* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Conquest railroads Team Corrin into invading Hoshido let's be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 No, but you do expect protagonists to follow a plan which at least has a chance of succeeding and improving the situation over taking a defiant stance that serves no point except getting you killed. Even with King Garon's true nature aside it would be difficult to convince the siblings that Garon must be killed. Xander and Leo respect the man for who he was before and Camilla is too afraid of him to defy him. They're all coping with having to deal with the Garon as he is now and no matter what they may say about trusting Azura it would be equally stupid writing for them to be so easily convinced by a former Hoshidan captive that their king is a monster and must be killed, and even Corrin would end up losing some credit with them since, again, no matter how much they say they trust Corrin, it might put some sneaking suspicion in the back of their mind that the plan to assassinate Garon is a Hoshidan plot. That this is not considered or discussed at all, not even by Azura when Corrin suggests telling the others, IS a failure of the writing, that much is true. Again, what you're saying makes no sense; out of all the possibilities, out of all the directions the game could've taken, the most logical is to aid Garon in whatever way he sees fit and wait for an opening? That's the quickest way to end a war? It makes all the protagonists come across as spineless cowards, and again, by not talking about this with the other siblings, it's impossible to know how they would react. They might hold on to some past version of Garon but we hardly know ANYTHING about him! We know he was a strict, scary man and that he was better than an almost literal puppy-kicker, but that's not much to go on. Again, this could've been resolved if the siblings actually TALKED about the dilemma of planning to stop their father. Saying that "oh well they would've failed anyway" goes against pretty much all forms of fantasy and the very core idea of adventure fiction in general. Two hobbits against Sauron's massive armies? Welp, there's nothing to do, might as well just hand over the ring. Why are people till getting upset over FE plots all leading to "capture x country hold hands sing kumbyah kill evil darkness" Characters make the story and conquest has some great ones...(nohr is totally evil look at how evil they are with their evil...who is...oh god JUSTICE!!! NOOOOO rip lord lobster 2016) Characters are an incredibly important part, but it's by no means everything. On top of that, I can't say I enjoy Conquest's cast in their very own path because they act so stupidly; how am I supposed to get invested in a bunch of protagonists too afraid to the right thing and get bossed around while clenching their fists inside their pockets, only to get enough motivation to put their foot down once they've already gone too far - and even then they only act because of a terrible excuse. Wait... shouldn't this thread title read "Dropped the crystal ball?" *excuses himself* Get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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