Hinoka x Avatar's B support seems like a big spoiler.

[Fallaner]

The timeframe is mention in the Japanese script for the support concerning Sakura and her birth.

The problem with your theory of a grown Kamui being brought in late is the fact that Hinoka down for the sibs assume Kamui IS blood related until you hit S Rank. Hinoka is canonically older than Kamui- if Kamui was a toddler or older she'd be older than that. There would be memories of a time without middle non-infant sib suddenly brought in, thus she'd have suspicious rather than requiring a letter with an explanation. Also apart from Ryouma and apparently Kagerou none of the non-royal characters ever bring up the fact Kamui's a step child, the narrative plays it much more like they think Kamui is blood related. An infant suddenly showing up at the castle and being associated with this is a bit less deadbeat "oops I had this mistress here's our years old love child" for Sumeragi.

You're are also stretching the word "baby" to fit your own interpretation. Taking "baby" completely literally is equally, if not more valid reading. With Sakura's Japanese birth timeframe in mind, I really can't see Ikona being dead before Kamui and Mikoto arrive in Hoshido.

I'm actually just taking the definition of "baby" and utilizing "especially" as it is meant to be used. Especially does not mean it is required specifically to be used in that context. Through the strictest of definitions and literally, you stop being a baby very quickly. Please don't try to say what I'm doing without reading what it is I did. I quite clearly said I took into account 'especially' and the literal definition of a baby. My reading of it is both valid given modern usage of the word, and valid given the word's definition.

Given that the Avatar does end up with virtually nonexistent memories of the past by default, it is entirely possible that Hinoka and the others have had a similar memory issue without realizing it. You don't even need magic for that! I can't even remember some of the people blood related to me and I met them when I was probably older than they were when they first met the Avatar! They also would of likely still been quite young, and thus may not of made a huge issue of it and eventually just forgotten it, as human memory is not infallible.

My argument simply requires human memory to be fallible, quite frankly.

I'm quite frankly just making an argument based on what's POSSIBLE and arguing that Sumeragi is not an asshole as Sunwoo originally stated. I personally don't give a damn if Sumeragi's first wife was alive or not when Mikoto first showed up. However, given everything available that really doesn't seem likely to me.

I don't see the timeframe aside from "baby", which as I've argued before, does not exclusively mean a few months old.

Other things I've read, such as the IK-related post Dame posted, suggest otherwise to me. Also, I don't think loving two people at the same time is really that "easy". In modern times, we'd call that cheating and polygamy is looked down in most of the modern world as well. Now, even if Hoshido isn't "modern times" and probably has different values than we do, if Sumeragi really did fall for Mikoto while he was still married to Ikona, that's pretty disrespectful to Ikona.

Do you really think most women (or men, for that matter) would take it well if their spouse whom they love decided that there was someone else that they loved just as much, or even more, as them? And invite them to live with you and your family? Wouldn't their existence would feel like a slap in the fucking face. Wasn't it established on Nohr path how all of the concubines being jealous and vying for Garon's attention fucked over the siblings emotionally as they were growing up?

I've seen enough of the script material in the Japanese to have formed an educated opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that unless Nintendo releases something officially disproving me, Sumeragi comes off as a two-timer who didn't give a fuck about his first wife's feelings and I think that in itself is a pretty assholish move.

You can also look at it from a historical perspective. That practice was NOT particularly uncommon (for higher people, anyway) from what I remember.

You are looking at that from a more modern viewpoint and not a more historical one. Different values for a different era, you know. Love is blind, as they say, and sometimes you meet someone who is simply a better match for you. HOWEVER, you could also argue that both of them were frankly fine with it. There's no basis on a set of values from which to argue that the practice is disrespectful in the value system Hoshido may hold.

Just because most people would feel that way in a modern setting, that doesn't mean the same applies to a more historical-inspired FICTIONAL setting. Nohrians are also very different from Hoshidans, and are raised in very different ways. Thus the behavior of one nation does NOT reflect the behavior of the other, otherwise all the Nohrians would be generally more peaceful or the Hoshidans would have more food issues and resort to fighting more frequently.

And my reading and playing of the special edition U.S. copy makes it quite clear to me that Sumeragi definitely cared for his family. Nothing in the English version of the game seems to imply from my reading that Ikona was DEFINITELY, without a SHADOW of a doubt still around when Mikoto appeared, and I even played Revelation Chapter 25 already. I own a special edition copy of the game. I can already play Revelation. I even finished it last week.

Quite frankly, you very rarely decide who you love. So it's hardly "deciding" you love someone else just as much. Anyone who argues otherwise quite clearly doesn't understand love as well as they may think.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Fallaner

[eharper256]

Well said.

Personally, this is my interpretation of what occured:

1. Sumeragi married Ikona

2. Had Ryouma and Hinoka

3. Mosied on to the IK, fell in love with Mikoto at first sight, eloped briefly.

3a. Mikoto not actually pregnant with his child, but with Anankos' at this time.

4. He's still blissfully unaware of this, continues to have Takumi and Sakura.

5. Ikona dies in Sakura's birth.

6. Mikoto arrives with baby Corrin shortly after.

I interpret this Corrin to be about 1 yr old, this is still in the bounds of being a baby. Takumi is 9-11 months, and Sakura is a days old Infant. Going by that, Ryouma is no more than 4-5, and Hinoka 2-3.

If this is the case, Ryouma and Hinoka not make a big fuss about stepsiblings is correct; Mikoto has still been their 'mother' since quite a young age, and though they may have some distant Ikona memories, they will be few and indistinct.

Finally, this still matches if we assume Sumeragi gets killed six months later or so by Garon, because then Elise still has a couple months of a window to appear after Corrin moves to Nohr; simultaneously meeting the conditions and still being younger than Sakura. Phew.

[StrikeZero]

Well said.

Personally, this is my interpretation of what occured:

1. Sumeragi married Ikona

2. Had Ryouma and Hinoka

3. Mosied on to the IK, fell in love with Mikoto at first sight, eloped briefly.

3a. Mikoto not actually pregnant with his child, but with Anankos' at this time.

4. He's still blissfully unaware of this, continues to have Takumi and Sakura.

5. Ikona dies in Sakura's birth.

6. Mikoto arrives with baby Corrin shortly after.

I interpret this Corrin to be about 1 yr old, this is still in the bounds of being a baby. Takumi is 9-11 months, and Sakura is a days old Infant. Going by that, Ryouma is no more than 4-5, and Hinoka 2-3.

If this is the case, Ryouma and Hinoka not make a big fuss about stepsiblings is correct; Mikoto has still been their 'mother' since quite a young age, and though they may have some distant Ikona memories, they will be few and indistinct.

Finally, this still matches if we assume Sumeragi gets killed six months later or so by Garon, because then Elise still has a couple months of a window to appear after Corrin moves to Nohr; simultaneously meeting the conditions and still being younger than Sakura. Phew.

was just about to say that

but i believe it may have been probably at least a year before the death of Sumeragi possibly more because Mikoto brings you to your room and shows you a picture you drew (most kids learn at ages 3-5 to draw people or shapes) as well as the fact that ALL the siblings on the Hoshido side at the very least recognize you meaning you formed some sort of memories with them (Takumi only scolds you because of his hatred for Nohr) and then theres Mikoto.

im not talking about her remembering you though, remember she wants to hold a ceremony for your return, meaning the people of Hoshido must at least know you even if only in name again showing you lived there for at least a year possibly 2.

so we get:

1. Sumeragi has Ryoma and Hinoka with Ikana

2. he meets Mikoto, becomes infatuated while she is in early stages of pregnancy with you

3. he returns home and has Takumi 1 year later ( to offset the age difference between Corrin and Takumi)

4. Ikana has Sakura and possibly dies in child birth and Mikoto and Corrin arrive at the door with Corrin being at least 1

this would make Ryoma 3-5, Hinoka 2-4, you 1 at arrival possibly 1and 1/2, Takumi barely 1 and Sakura a new born.

3-4 years later is the kidnapping, why you may ask. because we know from Hana that Sakura also cried a ton when you were kidnapped so she had to be 2 to maybe 4 to have formed that bond (Takumi isn't talked a lot about during the kidnapping so i will disregard him) another hint of the ages is that Hana is older than Sakura and Orochi is older than Ryoma as she served Mikoto making Kaze probably around 11 or 12 during your kidnapping as he would be a ninja in training but still young enough to be called a child by his elders. and finally Elise was born after the kidnapping and actually does make sense, not only does she sound younger than Sakura but is much shorter, it would also explain why you don't fight Elise but you can fight Sakura, making the older model character what he/she would actually look like.

so Corrin would be 4-5 (making you only months older than Takumi) during the death of Sumeragi, Ryoma being 7-9 (old enough to spar with Sumeragi or other samurai), Hinoka being 5-8 (old enough to feel hatred towards a nation), Takumi 4-5 (again old enough to feel hatred towards a nation but not old enough to hold a weapon like Ryoma or Hinoka) and finally Sakura would be 3-4 (old enough to remember you by name). and Elise was probably born after the kidnapping or even on the same year.

Edited February 29, 2016 by StrikeZero

[Tsuky]

Other things I've read, such as the IK-related post Dame posted, suggest otherwise to me. Also, I don't think loving two people at the same time is really that "easy". In modern times, we'd call that cheating and polygamy is looked down in most of the modern world as well. Now, even if Hoshido isn't "modern times" and probably has different values than we do, if Sumeragi really did fall for Mikoto while he was still married to Ikona, that's pretty disrespectful to Ikona.

Do you really think most women (or men, for that matter) would take it well if their spouse whom they love decided that there was someone else that they loved just as much, or even more, as them? And invite them to live with you and your family? Wouldn't their existence would feel like a slap in the fucking face. Wasn't it established on Nohr path how all of the concubines being jealous and vying for Garon's attention fucked over the siblings emotionally as they were growing up?

I've seen enough of the script material in the Japanese to have formed an educated opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that unless Nintendo releases something officially disproving me, Sumeragi comes off as a two-timer who didn't give a fuck about his first wife's feelings and I think that in itself is a pretty assholish move.

Yeah, I agree with you there, especially since the game made a point to differentiate the court atmospheres between Nohr and Hoshido.

Also, even if we were to assume that Hoshido allowed for multiple wives/concubines, there's NO WAY that Ikona was fine with it; human emotions don't work like that. She probably just wasn't able to do anything about it, since Hoshido is a patriarchal society. I would argue that even if Sumeragi met Mikoto after Ikona's death, it wouldn't really make him less of an a**hole, since the time gap couldn't have been that large. Your wife just died recently, possibly due to childbirth, and you fell in love with another woman this soon after? Yes, love is blind, but by that argument, every instance of cheating should be condoned.

And it seems a bit unrealistic to me that Ryoma didn't react negatively at all to Mikoto, but Hinoka did. Takumi and Sakura I can totally understand, but Ryoma should've been at the age during which he has formed solid emotional bonds with Ikona. I at least still have lots of memories from when I was five or six, and I would certainly not forget about a major event like my mom dying and my dad bringing another woman in. Or he just idolized Sumeragi too much, I dunno.

was just about to say that

but i believe it may have been probably at least a year before the death of Sumeragi possibly more because Mikoto brings you to your room and shows you a picture you drew (most kids learn at ages 3-5 to draw people or shapes) as well as the fact that ALL the siblings on the Hoshido side at the very least recognize you meaning you formed some sort of memories with them (Takumi only scolds you because of his hatred for Nohr) and then theres Mikoto.

im not talking about her remembering you though, remember she wants to hold a ceremony for your return, meaning the people of Hoshido must at least know you even if only in name again showing you lived there for at least a year possibly 2.

so we get:

1. Sumeragi has Ryoma and Hinoka with Ikana

2. he meets Mikoto, becomes infatuated while she is in early stages of pregnancy with you

3. he returns home and has Takumi 1 year later ( to offset the age difference between Corrin and Takumi)

4. Ikana has Sakura and possibly dies in child birth and Mikoto and Corrin arrive at the door with Corrin being at least 1

this would make Ryoma 3-5, Hinoka 2-4, you 1 at arrival possibly 1and 1/2, Takumi barely 1 and Sakura a new born.

3-4 years later is the kidnapping, why you may ask. because we know from Hana that Sakura also cried a ton when you were kidnapped so she had to be 2 to maybe 4 to have formed that bond (Takumi isn't talked a lot about during the kidnapping so i will disregard him) another hint of the ages is that Hana is older than Sakura and Orochi is older than Ryoma as she served Mikoto making Kaze probably around 11 or 12 during your kidnapping as he would be a ninja in training but still young enough to be called a child by his elders. and finally Elise was born after the kidnapping and actually does make sense, not only does she sound younger than Sakura but is much shorter, it would also explain why you don't fight Elise but you can fight Sakura, making the older model character what he/she would actually look like.

so Corrin would be 4-5 (making you only months older than Takumi) during the death of Sumeragi, Ryoma being 7-9 (old enough to spar with Sumeragi or other samurai), Hinoka being 5-8 (old enough to feel hatred towards a nation), Takumi 4-5 (again old enough to feel hatred towards a nation but not old enough to hold a weapon like Ryoma or Hinoka) and finally Sakura would be 3-4 (old enough to remember you by name). and Elise was probably born after the kidnapping or even on the same year.

The kidnapping definitely took place a few years down the road, because Ryoma states in Revelations that Corrin was kidnapped in front of his eyes, so he needs to be old enough to justify Sumeragi taking him on diplomatic trips. And I agree that Takumi is barely younger than you, since if you use the younger F!Corrin model, you can look younger than Takumi.

Although if we were to go by this timeline, which I think is really accurate, then Kaze would have to be older than Ryoma, which I find hard to believe. Goodness, why do Kaze and Saizo have to look different in age when they should be twins?

[StrikeZero]

The kidnapping definitely took place a few years down the road, because Ryoma states in Revelations that Corrin was kidnapped in front of his eyes, so he needs to be old enough to justify Sumeragi taking him on diplomatic trips. And I agree that Takumi is barely younger than you, since if you use the younger F!Corrin model, you can look younger than Takumi.

Although if we were to go by this timeline, which I think is really accurate, then Kaze would have to be older than Ryoma, which I find hard to believe. Goodness, why do Kaze and Saizo have to look different in age when they should be twins?

actually Kaze being older than Ryoma makes sense, Saizo does look like he could be older and he is twins with Kaze, and the other retainers are older than their masters, like Hana and Subaki, i think Oboro and Hinata are older than Takumi as well, even Setsuna and Azama, so Kaze and Saizo being older than Ryoma isn't impossible, and again Kaze was there and for him to be there he would have to be a ninja in training as i don't believe he would be there if he wasn't already a ninja in training again being older than Ryoma but young enough to be called a child.

[Tsuky]

actually Kaze being older than Ryoma makes sense, Saizo does look like he could be older and he is twins with Kaze, and the other retainers are older than their masters, like Hana and Subaki, i think Oboro and Hinata are older than Takumi as well, even Setsuna and Azama, so Kaze and Saizo being older than Ryoma isn't impossible, and again Kaze was there and for him to be there he would have to be a ninja in training as i don't believe he would be there if he wasn't already a ninja in training again being older than Ryoma but young enough to be called a child.

Oh no, I think it makes sense. I was just commenting on the fact that Kaze looks too young. Based on appearances alone, Ryoma would be sandwiched awkwardly between Saizo and Kaze.

[Chaotix]

Supports with Ryoma suggest that whatever his personal feelings on Mikoto were at the time, he decided to publicly embrace her as family in order to make her feel accepted. So he did it purely because he was a nice guy and probably a little bit more mature than Hinoka.

Is that an uncommon approach to this kind of situation? Yes, but I wouldn't call it unrealistic. For all that people can be petty and jealous they can also be kind and accepting.