Birthright darker than Conquest?

[semolinaro]

Before playing both campaigns, I was expecting Conquest to be the 'darker path' due to how it was advertised. But after playing Birthright, I feel that it's the much darker path. In Conquest you're fighting against your blood siblings who were complete strangers to you, then you went to the square and watched your mother die, but that's all you know of them. I found that facing them in battle wasn't very emotional.

But in Birthright... you're fighting against the family who has loved and raised you your whole life. They trusted you, you trusted them, and a tragic turn of fate changed that and they became your enemy by you trying to do the right thing for your country as well as their own. It's just far more heartbreaking and tragic to hear your loved ones call you a traitor. I felt kinda rotten after I finished Birthright, more so than I did Conquest. Plus,

Xander accidentally killing Elise

was was way darker than

Ryoma killing himself and ghost Takumi jumping off a wall.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Fallaner]

Before playing both campaigns, I was expecting Conquest to be the 'darker path' due to how it was advertised. But after playing Birthright, I feel that it's the much darker path. In Conquest you're fighting against your blood siblings who were complete strangers to you, then you went to the square and watched your mother die, but that's all you know of them. I found that facing them in battle wasn't very emotional.

But in Birthright... you're fighting against the family who has loved and raised you your whole life. They trusted you, you trusted them, and a tragic turn of fate changed that and they became your enemy by you trying to do the right thing for your country as well as their own. It's just far more heartbreaking and tragic to hear your loved ones call you a traitor. I felt kinda rotten after I finished Birthright, more so than I did Conquest. Plus,

Xander accidentally killing Elise

was was way darker than

Ryoma killing himself and ghost Takumi jumping off a wall.

What are your thoughts on this?

I seriously disagree.

Personally, I think Conquest was the Stronger, Darker and better written of Birthright and Conquest (Revelation trumps both of them though).

Ryoma's suicide had serious impact in my opinion (part of this is due to how I view suicide, my own cousin killed himself late last year during my last college semester and due to Japanese culture i'm aware of regarding Samurai AND my experience with a character in a game who commits suicide. I freaking loved that character, and preventing her death is impossible), and Zombie Takumi and the events afterwards quite hurt. And I didn't even LIKE Takumi until beating Birthright and moving onto Revelation. However, I WILL say that seeing Xander accidentally kill Elise and his death afterwards seriously hurt. ...But Garon afterwards just... undercut it even more than Gooron did to me. Like... really?! A really weird and silly looking dragon??

Edited March 3, 2016 by Fallaner

[semolinaro]

I seriously disagree.

Personally, I think Conquest was the Stronger, Darker and better written of Birthright and Conquest (Revelation trumps both of them though).

Ryoma's suicide had serious impact in my opinion (part of this is due to how I view suicide, my own cousin killed himself late last year during my last college semester and due to Japanese culture i'm aware of regarding Samurai AND my experience with a character in a game who commits suicide. I freaking loved that character, and preventing her death is impossible), and Zombie Takumi and the events afterwards quite hurt. And I didn't even LIKE Takumi until beating Birthright and moving onto Revelation. However, I WILL say that seeing Xander accidentally kill Elise and his death afterwards seriously hurt. ...But Garon afterwards just... undercut it even more than Gooron did to me. Like... really?! A really weird and silly looking dragon??

Interesting thoughts! Also, I'm really sorry to hear about your cousin... that's really terrible.

In regards to Ryoma, I thought it was sad... but it couldn't compare to a little girl getting cut down by her older brother. I feel like due to the way things played out in Conquest's story, a LOT of deaths could have been prevented had there been simple communication, including Ryoma's, so it took away the shock and grief of his death. Whereas Elise's death was a desperate attempt to save someone she loved and try and bring peace to her family that she was watching fall apart after the avatar leaves for Hoshido. Plus, she's a sweet little girl who loves her siblings, her death was unfair and tragic.

Edited March 3, 2016 by semolinaro

[Water Mage]

Well, Birhtright is a story of betrayal,

Honestly, I always thought that Birthright should have been the dark path, as you are betraying the people who loved you.

[Lemui]

I honestly think Conquest is darker.

It's all about the fact that Kamui didn't want anyone to die. The whole route on Nohr is about mercy, saving everyone possible because that's all they really can do. Their ragtag army isn't enough to fight the entire Nohrian army. Ryouma's death hit me harder than Marx's because the whole goal was to not make it happen. Don't get me wrong I kinda cried watching Elise die she didn't deserve that, it's just that Ryouma's death was a failure on our part because our whole goal is to keep everyone alive in the name of peace. Hoshido you're kinda the one being aggressive and therefore I expected something bad to come out of it. Ryouma literally ended his own life for you. You failed in your goal to save everyone, Takumi's dead, Ryouma's dead. While I still get all emotional about the Nohrian siblings in Hoshido I honestly feel that the Hoshidan siblings are the same way? Like you met your mother, she dies before you can ever share any moments of true happiness. This family you've never known you've had is there and they're your enemy and they've always wanted to be where your Nohrian siblings are. They die before they ever have the chance to be happy and at peace with you. Though I do think that the Hoshidan siblings were handled worse than Nohr's, I still felt bad for them in the story tbh.

I feel like the Hoshidan also fell apart in its own way, I mean their mom is dead. Takumi's anger, even if he feels beyond extra, is justified. They lost their mom because their sister/brother got stuck in the middle of a trap, and then that very same sibling who their mom strived so hard to meet again just ups and leaves them without any moments of peace.
Maybe its just me though....

[Azure Sen]

Well, Birhtright is a story of betrayal,

Honestly, I always thought that Birthright should have been the dark path, as you are betraying the people who loved you.

That really doesn't qualify as dark nor betrayal for me. Maybe if the whole Trojan horse/attempted murder thing didn't happen, or your Nohr siblings at large didn't dismiss your claims as the result of brainwashing. That's pretty much what killed any doubts I had about picking Hoshido, honestly. Their response isn't "we can protect you from Father, but not if you stay with Hoshido" or "there must be a misunderstanding, come back home so we can clear this up" (which is one of Corrin's justifications for returning to Nohr in Conquest!), but that you must be brainwashed. Because clearly their obviously evil father who locked you away in isolation and,

according to Gunter, ordered him to whip/starve you,

would never do that.

But yeah, Conquest is definitely the darker path, in my opinion.

Edited March 3, 2016 by AzureSen

[Abysswalker25]

That really doesn't qualify as dark nor betrayal for me. Maybe if the whole Trojan horse/attempted murder thing didn't happen, or your Nohr siblings at large didn't dismiss your claims as the result of brainwashing. That's pretty much what killed any doubts I had about picking Hoshido, honestly. Their response isn't "we can protect you from Father, but not if you stay with Hoshido" or "there must be a misunderstanding, come back home so we can clear this up" (which is one of Corrin's justifications for returning to Nohr in Conquest!), but that you must be brainwashed. Because clearly their obviously evil father who locked you away in isolation and,

according to Gunter, ordered your servants to whip/starve you,

would never do that.

But yeah, Conquest is definitely the darker path, in my opinion.

Funny enough Ryoma says your brainwashed by the Nohrians if you side with them. I wasn't aware they also think your brainwashed if you side with Hoshido.

[semolinaro]

Funny enough Ryoma says your brainwashed by the Nohrians if you side with them. I wasn't aware they also think your brainwashed if you side with Hoshido.

Also, what bugs me about Ryoma is that he claims you were brainwashed by your Nohrian family, but Azura, who grew up with the Hoshidans in a similar fashion, isn't brainwashed? That didn't sit well with me.

[Azure Sen]

Also, what bugs me about Ryoma is that he claims you were brainwashed by your Nohrian family, but Azura, who grew up with the Hoshidans in a similar fashion, isn't brainwashed? That didn't sit well with me.

Well, given that whole "magically wiping your memory to forget that you were kidnapped" thing, on top of everything else, I think he has far more reason to suspect Corrin of being brainwashed in Conquest than Xander, Camilla and (if I remember correctly) Leo do on Birthright.

Edited March 3, 2016 by AzureSen

[Fallaner]

Also, what bugs me about Ryoma is that he claims you were brainwashed by your Nohrian family, but Azura, who grew up with the Hoshidans in a similar fashion, isn't brainwashed? That didn't sit well with me.

It's kinda hypocritical. However, I'm guessing they are saying it simply because they think you were raised in a different environment than you actually were.

They know they didn't brainwash Azura. However, they are unwilling to provide that same trust to the Nohrians.

"Blood is thicker than water", as they say. He is under the impression that you should side with them just because you are their blood family.

Well, given that whole "magically wiping your memory to forget that you were kidnapped" thing, on top of everything else, I think he has far more reason to suspect Corrin of being brainwashed.

Well, you COULD argue that your memory wasn't really magically wiped, and more as a result of trauma. I mean, it's likely you were kidnapped at a fairly young age. Personally, I can't remember anything from when I was like 9 years old (12 years ago). I'm surprised the Avatar can remember something that may of happened even younger than that.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Fallaner

[semolinaro]

It's kinda hypocritical. However, I'm guessing they are saying it simply because they think you were raised in a different environment than you actually were.

They know they didn't brainwash Azura. However, they are unwilling to provide that same trust to the Nohrians.

"Blood is thicker than water", as they say. He is under the impression that you should side with them just because you are their blood family.

Well, you COULD argue that your memory wasn't really magically wiped, and more as a result of trauma. I mean, it's likely you were kidnapped at a fairly young age. Personally, I can't remember anything from when I was like 9 years old (12 years ago). I'm surprised the Avatar can remember something that may of happened even younger than that.

Even though you're not even related by blood.

I think the choice goes beyond family. In fact, after experiencing both paths, it feels more like 'loyalty vs. morality'. By choosing Conquest your loyalty to those who have raised and loved you overrides doing the 'right thing' in joining your blood family who you were taken from and taking down a tyrant who seeks nothing but domination and the suffering of others.

Edited March 3, 2016 by semolinaro

[Fallaner]

Even though you're not even related by blood.

I think the choice goes beyond family. In fact, after experiencing both paths, it feels more like 'loyalty vs. morality'. By choosing Conquest your loyalty to those who have raised and loved you overrides doing the 'right thing' in joining your blood family who you were taken from and taking down a tyrant who seeks nothing but domination and the suffering of others.

I played Revelation, I'm aware that i'm not related to them by blood. The Hoshidan family still THINKS you are though.

Honestly, I'd agree there, HOWEVER, I'd argue that Conquest can still be argued as being a moral choice because ultimately, morality is subjective.

If you let Hoshido damage Nohr, it can do a LOT of bad for it, and they honestly have an inferior chance of winning against Nohr. Nohr has the chance for helping the Nohrians out more, protecting as many Hoshidans as possible by not killing them all, and being almost guaranteed to get rid of the worst elements of Nohr.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Fallaner

[NekoKnight]

Even though you're not even related by blood.

I think the choice goes beyond family. In fact, after experiencing both paths, it feels more like 'loyalty vs. morality'. By choosing Conquest your loyalty to those who have raised and loved you overrides doing the 'right thing' in joining your blood family who you were taken from and taking down a tyrant who seeks nothing but domination and the suffering of others.

This is the real choice. Kamui doesn't know his Hoshidan siblings, so he's just sticking up for what he feels is a moral country (and his home country being run by an insane tyrant that tried several times to murder him probably helped make the choice easier).

Ryoma was kind of being a hypocritical dick for saying that the Nohrians couldn't be like family to Kamui, when they have Azura right there and ESPECIALLY considering what Ryoma knows about you.