What's your opinion on Azura?

[Emblem Blade]

Her mysteriousness gets deconstructed a bit in her supports--she wants to have friends, but she has trust issues, so she keeps herself reserved from other people--that's why she's "mysterious". Unfortunately, it just makes them distrust her, which makes it harder for her to open up, which makes them even more prone to distrust, and so on.

The way you said that very much describes how people can perceive each of us in real life.

[vanguard333]

Yes it does get deconstructed a bit in her supports, and, as I said, I liked her supports. I even felt there were great moments in the main plot involving her opening up and trusting (I even gave an example: the full reunion between her and the Nohrian royal family in Chapter 16). I understand where her secretive nature and mysteriousness comes from; I just felt there were a few moments where it was overdone.

[maybe]

What I wanted Azura to be:

What I got:

I haven't played this game, nor do I have any idea who these characters are, but is there any reason you hoped for something like this, specifically? I mean, I know we didn't know much about the character when the game was first announced, but this seems like a bit of a stretch even just to hope for.

Edited March 6, 2016 by maybe

[Thane]

I haven't played this game, nor do I have any idea who these characters are, but is there any reason you hoped for something like this, specifically? I mean, I know we didn't know much about the character when the game was first announced, but this seems like a bit of a stretch even just to hope for.

We knew very little about Azura, other than her being so mysterious that mystery just oozed out of her every mysterious pore. That's essentially Kreia, too, who is my favorite video game character of all time. I realize that few can measure up to her wonderfully creepy self, but I sort of hoped Azura would be pulling the strings behind Corrin's - but not the players' - back, and maybe even be a villain in at least one path.

But she isn't. She's a walking exposition bot working part time as a plot device with a song that has as many effects as Tumblr has gender identities.

There are many reasons as to why Kreia's enigmatic nature works so well, but one of the key things is her connection to the rest of the cast - every single character hates and fears her, yet they can do nothing about it because she's a manipulative witch who knows everything to keep them quiet and use them for her own ends. Azura's mysterious nature just gets people killed, and I can't remember a single interaction she has with any other character than Corrin outside of supports.

[Abvora]

We knew very little about Azura, other than her being so mysterious that mystery just oozed out of her every mysterious pore. That's essentially Kreia, too, who is my favorite video game character of all time. I realize that few can measure up to her wonderfully creepy self, but I sort of hoped Azura would be pulling the strings behind Corrin's - but not the players' - back, and maybe even be a villain in at least one path.

But she isn't. She's a walking exposition bot working part time as a plot device with a song that has as many effects as Tumblr has gender identities.

There are many reasons as to why Kreia's enigmatic nature works so well, but one of the key things is her connection to the rest of the cast - every single character hates and fears her, yet they can do nothing about it because she's a manipulative witch who knows everything to keep them quiet and use them for her own ends. Azura's mysterious nature just gets people killed, and I can't remember a single interaction she has with any other character than Corrin outside of supports.

...so all mysterious characters have to be evil or they're bad characters? Don't get me wrong, I liked Kreia too, but she's like the golden goose of mysterious characters--holding anyone else up to her means your expectations will be let down. That metaphor made no sense, I know, but I hope I got the point across.

She interacts with the rest of the royal family outside of supports, Elise and Takum in particular.

[Thane]

...so all mysterious characters have to be evil or they're bad characters? Don't get me wrong, I liked Kreia too, but she's like the golden goose of mysterious characters--holding anyone else up to her means your expectations will be let down. That metaphor made no sense, I know, but I hope I got the point across.

She interacts with the rest of the royal family outside of supports, Elise and Takum in particular.

Where on earth did that comment come from? I merely said that since Kreia is so marvelously written, I got ahead of myself and hoped for something similar. Azura IS essentially pulling some strings but it's portrayed in such an incompetent way that I'd rather she be forgotten entirely by the plot, as opposed to Kreia whose plans were always at the forefront.

I know she does. I'm saying it's far from enough given her role in the narrative; does she even say a single word to Ryouma or Hinoka throughout the entire game?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Where on earth did that comment come from? I merely said that since Kreia is so marvelously written, I got ahead of myself and hoped for something similar. Azura IS essentially pulling some strings but it's portrayed in such an incompetent way that I'd rather she be forgotten entirely by the plot, as opposed to Kreia whose plans were always at the forefront.

I know she does. I'm saying it's far from enough given her role in the narrative; does she even say a single word to Ryouma or Hinoka throughout the entire game?

Barely. The plot is too busy riding Kamui's dick.

[Abvora]

Where on earth did that comment come from? I merely said that since Kreia is so marvelously written, I got ahead of myself and hoped for something similar. Azura IS essentially pulling some strings but it's portrayed in such an incompetent way that I'd rather she be forgotten entirely by the plot, as opposed to Kreia whose plans were always at the forefront.

I know she does. I'm saying it's far from enough given her role in the narrative; does she even say a single word to Ryouma or Hinoka throughout the entire game?

Sorry, it's just that from the comparisons to Kreia, I thought you were saying mysterious characters need to be evil/masterminds or else they're bad characters, and that irked me because it's generalizing an entire archetype. Not to mention, hoping for anyone to be like Kreia automatically holds them to a giant, impossible-to-meet standard which just sets you up for disappointment, and while Fire Emblem has had strong characters, none of them have been at Kreia's level--the closest is probably Lehran. So it seemed unfair to expect Azura to be like a character written by another company, then be upset when she wasn't.

She talks to Ryoma a few times in Birthright and Revelation, and has a boss convo with Hinoka if you're crazy enough to do that...though Hinoka tends to be forgotten by the plot in general.

[Wayward Alchemist]

Stellar unit.

Solid character with no real gimmick.

Great design.

But her godawful decisions in the story.

[RedRob]

Barely. The plot is too busy riding Kamui's dick.

You know, if Camila was more obsessive with Corrin, maybe she would do us a favor and kill the plot out of jealousy. Of course that would also mean she might try to kill Azura, what with all the ship tease between her and Corrin.

..... Screw it, let it happen. I want to see yandere vs yandere. Oh, who's the other yandere you ask? It's someone who achieved enlightenment through misanthropy. That's all I'm going to say.

[Time the Crestfallen]

You know, if Camila was more obsessive with Corrin, maybe she would do us a favor and kill the plot out of jealousy. Of course that would also mean she might try to kill Azura, what with all the ship tease between her and Corrin.

..... Screw it, let it happen. I want to see yandere vs yandere. Oh, who's the other yandere you ask? It's someone who achieved enlightenment through misanthropy. That's all I'm going to say.

Me?

But in all seriousness, I think the plot would be a bit better if Kamui was the deuteragonist to Azura, rather than the other way around

Edited March 6, 2016 by Phillius

[Thane]

Sorry, it's just that from the comparisons to Kreia, I thought you were saying mysterious characters need to be evil/masterminds or else they're bad characters, and that irked me because it's generalizing an entire archetype. Not to mention, hoping for anyone to be like Kreia automatically holds them to a giant, impossible-to-meet standard which just sets you up for disappointment, and while Fire Emblem has had strong characters, none of them have been at Kreia's level--the closest is probably Lehran. So it seemed unfair to expect Azura to be like a character written by another company, then be upset when she wasn't.

She talks to Ryoma a few times in Birthright and Revelation, and has a boss convo with Hinoka if you're crazy enough to do that...though Hinoka tends to be forgotten by the plot in general.

It wasn't an expectation so much as it was a hope; I'd do a lot to have a character like Kreia appear again. Hell, she's in an UNFINISHED GAME and she's still so awesome.

If Azura would've said "It is because you were...afraid" then she'd instantly have become a 10/10 forever waifu.

In a sense, Azura is forgotten by the plot as well in that all of the family and sibling relationships are focused on Corrin; Azura having a few lines with everyone doesn't show they're all related. Hell, with this many siblings its no wonder the chemistry between them all is so awful, even if the supports can be good.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Thane

[RedRob]

Me?

But in all seriousness, I think the plot would be a bit better if Kamui was the deuteragonist to Azura, rather than the other way around

Oh, like Awakening? I liked the concept of Robin, since he actually had some importance to the plot, instead of being a self-insert that had zero relevance to the plot and could easily be cut from it. I'm looking at you Mark.

The execution left something to desire though.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Oh, like Awakening? I liked the concept of Robin, since he actually had some importance to the plot, instead of being a self-insert that had zero relevance to the plot and could easily be cut from it. I'm looking at you Mark.

The execution left something to desire though.

Exactly. When it comes to Avatar characters, you can't have them not be important since people will wonder what's the point of having them. But if they're gonna be the main character, Fates is a textbook example of what not to do (characters who base their lives around them, no freedom of choice in how they act, a lack of agency ETC).

[Abysswalker25]

Me?

But in all seriousness, I think the plot would be a bit better if Kamui was the deuteragonist to Azura, rather than the other way around

They did that with Robin, and people complained about them taking the spotlight away from Chrom, so they just decided to make Corrin the only lord-type and give them all the focus. I guess people had to be more specific of what they wanted?

[Emblem Blade]

They did that with Robin, and people complained about them taking the spotlight away from Chrom, so they just decided to make Corrin the only lord-type and give them all the focus. I guess people had to be more specific of what they wanted?

Those complaints actually happened regarding spotlight on main characters in Awakening?

[Time the Crestfallen]

It wasn't an expectation so much as it was a hope; I'd do a lot to have a character like Kreia appear again. Hell, she's in an UNFINISHED GAME and she's still so awesome.

If Azura would've said "It is because you were...afraid" then she'd instantly have become a 10/10 forever waifu.

In a sense, Azura is forgotten by the plot as well in that all of the family and sibling relationships are focused on Corrin; Azura having a few lines with everyone doesn't show they're all related. Hell, with this many siblings its no wonder the chemistry between them all is so awful, even if the supports can be good.

Maybe it's just me, but Kreia started to annoy me once I found out that Avellone was using her as a mouthpiece for his criticisms of the Star Wars. I still like her a lot, she's easily the best-written and most interesting Star Wars characters in my opinion, but the speeches she give that I once thought were, while overly cynical (something that could be said about the whole game mind you), a refreshing an interesting take on the lore of the franchise became Avellone complaining constantly about the franchise, which is more than a little condescending and annoying.

[MCProductions]

Those complaints actually happened regarding spotlight on main characters in Awakening?

Not so much with Robin and Chrom where it makes sense, but with Kris and Marth, where Kris has no reason to hijack the plot as much as he does.

[Emblem Blade]

Not so much with Robin and Chrom where it makes sense, but with Kris and Marth, where Kris has no reason to hijack the plot as much as he does.

Never got that far in the remakes to see that. Main characters should have an evenly spread out spotlight time where it doesn't get taken away without a justified cause.

[NekoKnight]

Me?

But in all seriousness, I think the plot would be a bit better if Kamui was the deuteragonist to Azura, rather than the other way around

Doesn't deuteragonist imply they have equal parts already?

Azura as the primary protagonist would require a dramatic restructuring of the plot. What the plot needed was for Azura to cooperate with others (especially Kamui) instead of manipulating them to her own ends (and we find out how badly THAT turned out for everyone).

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Homura from Madoka cause herself unnecessary grief by needlessly being mysterious?

Edited March 7, 2016 by NekoKnight

[warchiefwilliams]

I really don't want to keep hitting this dead horse, but I kinda have to so I can get my view out there.

Azura Pros

• Lovely voice: Bother her JP and her English voices are absolutely beautiful. They complement her design and are just wonderful to listen to.
• Good Design. Dances/Songstresses aren't supposed to be heavily armored, so I can appreciate how her design is supposed to complement her form. Her Nohr!Concert outfit is stunning and I wish she wore it more.
• She's a sweetie: Her supports show as much. She seems like she would be a nice person to know in reality.

Azura Cons (which in some situations outweigh the pros)

• Her story role: I don't know whether to blame this on her, or on the shoddy writing, but there were so many points where Azura could have diffused a situation involving Valla dickery but she doesn't for whatever reason UNLESS Revelations is downloaded.
• She is an Exposition Bot: And she is selective about when she is one. At least in Conquest, and for the first part of Revelations, all she does is spout exposition to Corrin/the Player. Her role as this Exposition bot unfortunately makes her irritating, as I can't help but wonder if we could have averted some bad events prior if she had just opened her mouth.
• Not an amazing unit: Perhaps this is just me, speaking as someone who has never been fond of dancers as a class, but I found Azura almost impossible to use as a unit without serious grinding. Even then, at least in my games, she got shit tanking growths (HP, Res, Def) making her go down in one hit if something looked at her funny.

I want to like Azura, I really do, but she tries so hard to make me hate her.

Doesn't deuteragonist imply they have equal parts already?

Azura as the primary protagonist would require a dramatic restructuring of the plot. What the plot needed was for Azura to cooperate with others (especially Kamui) instead of manipulating them to her own ends (and we find out how badly THAT turned out for everyone).

Azura as the protagonist....

(looks at her record in Fates as it is)

... implications, unsettling....

[Emblem Blade]

I really don't want to keep hitting this dead horse, but I kinda have to so I can get my view out there.

Azura Pros

• Lovely voice: Bother her JP and her English voices are absolutely beautiful. They complement her design and are just wonderful to listen to.
• Good Design. Dances/Songstresses aren't supposed to be heavily armored, so I can appreciate how her design is supposed to complement her form. Her Nohr!Concert outfit is stunning and I wish she wore it more.
• She's a sweetie: Her supports show as much. She seems like she would be a nice person to know in reality.

Azura Cons (which in some situations outweigh the pros)

• Her story role: I don't know whether to blame this on her, or on the shoddy writing, but there were so many points where Azura could have diffused a situation involving Valla dickery but she doesn't for whatever reason UNLESS Revelations is downloaded.
• She is an Exposition Bot: And she is selective about when she is one. At least in Conquest, and for the first part of Revelations, all she does is spout exposition to Corrin/the Player. Her role as this Exposition bot unfortunately makes her irritating, as I can't help but wonder if we could have averted some bad events prior if she had just opened her mouth.
• Not an amazing unit: Perhaps this is just me, speaking as someone who has never been fond of dancers as a class, but I found Azura almost impossible to use as a unit without serious grinding. Even then, at least in my games, she got shit tanking growths (HP, Res, Def) making her go down in one hit if something looked at her funny.

I want to like Azura, I really do, but she tries so hard to make me hate her.

Azura as the protagonist....

(looks at her record in Fates as it is)

... implications, unsettling....

Very much so...considering her track record on events involving her. Then again, Corrin also got dragged into everything due to Anakos in Birthright and Conquest which gives them a decently bad record (although they make up for it and Anakos doesn't make an appearance).

[MCProductions]

I really don't want to keep hitting this dead horse, but I kinda have to so I can get my view out there.

Azura Pros

• Lovely voice: Bother her JP and her English voices are absolutely beautiful. They complement her design and are just wonderful to listen to.
• Good Design. Dances/Songstresses aren't supposed to be heavily armored, so I can appreciate how her design is supposed to complement her form. Her Nohr!Concert outfit is stunning and I wish she wore it more.
• She's a sweetie: Her supports show as much. She seems like she would be a nice person to know in reality.

Azura Cons (which in some situations outweigh the pros)

• Her story role: I don't know whether to blame this on her, or on the shoddy writing, but there were so many points where Azura could have diffused a situation involving Valla dickery but she doesn't for whatever reason UNLESS Revelations is downloaded.
• She is an Exposition Bot: And she is selective about when she is one. At least in Conquest, and for the first part of Revelations, all she does is spout exposition to Corrin/the Player. Her role as this Exposition bot unfortunately makes her irritating, as I can't help but wonder if we could have averted some bad events prior if she had just opened her mouth.
• Not an amazing unit: Perhaps this is just me, speaking as someone who has never been fond of dancers as a class, but I found Azura almost impossible to use as a unit without serious grinding. Even then, at least in my games, she got shit tanking growths (HP, Res, Def) making her go down in one hit if something looked at her funny.

I want to like Azura, I really do, but she tries so hard to make me hate her.

Azura as the protagonist....

(looks at her record in Fates as it is)

... implications, unsettling....

These sum up my thoughts exactly tbh, tho I don't mind her being an exposition bot that much. I'm clearly an MGS fan after all, so info dumps don't bother me too much

Edited March 7, 2016 by MCProductions

[RedRob]

Doesn't deuteragonist imply they have equal parts already?

Azura as the primary protagonist would require a dramatic restructuring of the plot. What the plot needed was for Azura to cooperate with others (especially Kamui) instead of manipulating them to her own ends (and we find out how badly THAT turned out for everyone).

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Homura from Madoka cause herself unnecessary grief by needlessly being mysterious?

Been a while since I seen it, but I recall her trying to tell her friends in previous loops only for them to die anyway. I think one actually ended with Mami going insane at the revelation and trying to mercy-kill them.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Doesn't deuteragonist imply they have equal parts already?

Azura as the primary protagonist would require a dramatic restructuring of the plot. What the plot needed was for Azura to cooperate with others (especially Kamui) instead of manipulating them to her own ends (and we find out how badly THAT turned out for everyone).

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Homura from Madoka cause herself unnecessary grief by needlessly being mysterious?

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Fates places to much emphasis on Corrin over every other aspect of the story, to the point where it feels like the entire world revolves around him as the characterisation of many other characters suffers in their presence. Make the Avatar a supporting character to Azura, downplay the family theme (since IS have proven they can't handle that aspect of the story for shit) and play up Azura trying to expose Valla might make the plot a little better, but this is a very subjective opinion so...