The Real Disappointment (story spoilers)

[Thane]

Even if Fates was rushed, it is not a game that is devastated for the creators bringing it up for sales when the content as lost some/most of its potential. Loose plotholes that show up? That is not new to the FE series or any series that ends up having sequels. Games will have plotholes one way or another, that's unavoidable even though plotholes can ruin the story if too many are present. If what you said about the rough draft is true and that the final draft might have been cut by a lot, the game is still better than it is worse overall.

That's entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Due to the nature of the Fire Emblem chronology, few games are tied story-wise, and should be judged as separate installments. It's not like I go "man this writing sucks and the plot is full of holes, but oh well, I guess that doesn't matter because Nergal powered the Dragon Gate even though he was out of quintessence and didn't have the dragon babies".

I'm fine with the games that Nintendo has released, even when the content seems to have degraded compared to anything before it I don't see it has bad but that is me personally and the view of others is up to them and I have no right to tell them otherwise. What I tend to see on threads that somewhat fall on the title 'What could have been' is more negative talk than positive talk most of the time. It's easier for the negative atmosphere to spread because people can easily think of why the game is bad than what has made it good. I'm ok seeing people give opinions that are overall gloomy, it's needed but if a thread goes downhill by mentioning only the failures of a game, then the game 'looks' overall more like crap than it is.

Alright? Again, I fail to see the point you're making here. Why would you care if the game looks more crap than it is? The only thing that matters is your personal opinion - I love Awakening, and while I don't turn a blind eye to the many flaws, I don't let my enjoyment be sullied by some people on the internet having a different opinion.

No, I have no idea what Intelligent Systems has up their minds. I never will know and that is something that I have no absolute right to ask for. There could be several reasons if not a few good causes for why IS didn't make Fates as good as they could easily have done so but as you just replied for once, we have no ability to know those reasons unless they told us and thinking too much into it won't help anyone. So far no one really up to now has even bothered to guess what those reasons were and most of us have just made criticizing comments without taking into any possible reason IS had in mind into the formula. It doesn't hurt to defend IS in a post even if what they have done is disagreeable. IS most likely did something bad during the final editing of Fates and it causes some discomfort among those who play it but is that final edit in the long run so bad? Or are we seeing it as poor in the short run as it is now.

That's a straight up lie. It has been the topic of discussion for quite a while. I've even said that one of the things I want to know the most in terms of gaming is what the hell happened when IS was writing this game. People have been offering a multitude of theories that could have explained why things turned out the way they did; why would you say we haven't?

I never said that others can't speak their minds. But speaking if we speak our minds without understanding the possible causes for the case that is being represented doesn't make us look any better than we started out to be. No, the creators aren't always right even though they make the games. Ignoring the expectations part, the developers in the end make the game's final touches. If the developers made a game solely off of the consumer's review, who would have all the credit for said game? Do you get what I'm saying with that question because that's what my original post was asking for. My original post was asking this simple question which sometimes isn't as easy to understand:

'Who makes the game? If the game was created by the consumer's opinions then where would all the credit go to?

I'm not trying to point out that everyone not named myself is in the wrong, if that were so I would like everyone else to get the Admins so they can remove me from forums. I just see so much on 'The game is screwed up because of this and that' without seeing any possible reasons that point out what the designers possibly felt during the final stages of the game. Perhaps the reason why you have a hard time understanding me Thane and why I can't easily understand you or the others is that I'm no longer just applying how Fates was handled into the situation alone, I'm also taking in cases in real life where similar arguments come up and there is no outside support on why the argument's topic took place.

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. Who would get the credit for creating a game if the developers listen to feedback? Is that what you're trying to say? Because if there's one thing I'll give Intelligent Systems it's that they seem to keep their eyes and ears open, or at least pretend to. Regardless, fans aren't creating games, and it would be impossible to create a game solely by listening to fans if that's what you're saying, due to widely different opinions and preferences. That said, you can usually see a trend in discussions, and that's where companies like IS get feedback from; they take it into consideration and try to do better next time.

I think the reason as to why I can't understand you is because you write walls of purple prose with no real point to them. What you've said could be summarized as "we shouldn't be so hard on the game because we have no idea what happened during the development", which still is an incredible attitude to have on a platform dedicated to discussing the franchise said game belongs to

[Loki Laufeyson]

ive come to terms with the story in all the games tbh. Conquest is terrible, but i love the maps and characters, so i just skip the story. Birthright is my favorite path narrative-wise (which is just saying i liked it best out of the lot) and i can play the harder modes on it. (cuz it doesnt crush my balls) Revelation is neat for getting everyone and some of the weirder maps. It is what it is.

All the DLC is on cart - they're just as scummy.

Not all of it. The stuff just released in Japan (which im sure we are gonna get) was definitely not on the card/disk. The first batch? Yeah that was a thing.

[Dark Sage]

ive come to terms with the story in all the games tbh. Conquest is terrible, but i love the maps and characters, so i just skip the story. Birthright is my favorite path narrative-wise (which is just saying i liked it best out of the lot) and i can play the harder modes on it. (cuz it doesnt crush my balls) Revelation is neat for getting everyone and some of the weirder maps. It is what it is.

Not all of it. The stuff just released in Japan (which im sure we are gonna get) was definitely not on the card/disk. The first batch? Yeah that was a thing.

The skills you unlock though are all on the disk though (I think the scrolls are anyway, I might be wrong), though tbf, Proximity Shot is actually utilized in the maingame (not on your side though). I really hate the DLC practices this game has though and it boggles the mind that people are often willing to defend Nintendo for some of the scummier shit they've pulled and then in the same breath bash Capcom and EA for doing the exact same thing. Even the three paths being DLC is suspect when you realize that games like Tactics Ogre and Soul Nomad also had alternate paths, and they didn't charge you extra for it, though admittedly this is a more grey area.

[berry]

To be honest I find some supports to be disappointing, not to mention the Hoshido festival cgs being awful. I genuinely enjoy the new dlc though, however that brings some issues with how Revelations handles those three. Hell, I forgot there was even a story at some point. Like with Awakening I was so busy just fighting I forgot Robin had amnesia. But really, does anyone actually play for a compelling story?

[Loki Laufeyson]

The skills you unlock though are all on the disk though (I think the scrolls are anyway, I might be wrong), though tbf, Proximity Shot is actually utilized in the maingame (not on your side though). I really hate the DLC practices this game has though and it boggles the mind that people are often willing to defend Nintendo for some of the scummier shit they've pulled and then in the same breath bash Capcom and EA for doing the exact same thing. Even the three paths being DLC is suspect when you realize that games like Tactics Ogre and Soul Nomad also had alternate paths, and they didn't charge you extra for it, though admittedly this is a more grey area.

I dunno about all the second batch stuff being on disk. Yer right about Proximity Shot but it doesnt seem to be accessible even via hacking. Ive run into a lot of hackers in My Castle shenanigans and no one has that. /shrug Im honestly not getting a lot of the DLC this time mostly because i feel its not really worth it.

[Gaia]

I dunno about all the second batch stuff being on disk. Yer right about Proximity Shot but it doesnt seem to be accessible even via hacking. Ive run into a lot of hackers in My Castle shenanigans and no one has that. /shrug Im honestly not getting a lot of the DLC this time mostly because i feel its not really worth it.

It's possible to get it through hacking but any skills classified as enemy only will get you immediately shadowbanned. It's likely that the proximity shot received from the DLC is technically a different skill, simply with the same effect.

[Samias]

Some of us did enjoy the stories of older games. But it was a lot easier when the games were strictly linear. I feel like Path of Radiance did it best with supports locked on a chapter deployment basis so you could expand the story through supports and not have to consider anything being unlocked before a certain event happens. And the story didn't get very complicated until Radiant Dawn, where people did become concerned about plot holes and plot contrivances. But in Awakening and Birthright/Revelation Fates, the flow gets obliterated by paralogues, DLC and potentially skirmishes. It doesn't help that the narrative itself seems to reset in tone after each chapter.

[spoiler=Awakening]Who can forget Emmeryn's sacrifice and the big escape.... seperated by the unlock of Anna's paralogue?! What a way to ruin an emotional moment if you're the type to do paralogues as soon as they unlock.

I noticed someone bring up that Fates characters feel like Advance Wars at this point. Everyone seems defined solely by quirks. In fact I feel like Advance Wars Dual Strike probably has a more quality campaign writing-wise than Fates because they didn't try to handle too much at once. There's something to be said of the power of simplicity.

Also we have the trend of having certain characters with potential be completely hamstrung support-wise because IS is too focused on pairings and marriage. We have the literal baby dimension now. I can't stress enough how dumb the existence of children is in this game. It attracts its own crowd of fans but I mean, we had ships before Awakening without requiring every eligible bachelor pair with every bachelorette and shoehorning breeding simulator into every title. It was fun in Awakening. In Fates it amounts to "free units" but their actual stories and parental-child bond feel so insincere and fanservicey. Especially when some of their personalities are so hamstrung by tropes. Nina is probably the worst of them all, having so many of her supports revolve around being a yaoi fangirl. The only child I genuinely enjoy is Mitama, because her haikus at least have a level of creativity to them and I can pretend I just picked her up from someplace and forget the horrors of pairing Azama. Then you have things like Mikoto's retainers having no supports with each other, Crimson having no support with Ryoma, etc. They clearly don't have the writing resources to make the volume of supports they have for having children pairings. There's always going to be bad supports but in Fates, but the reality is triple routes with different stories and recruitment orders but with shared supports and babyworld really drags down every character. The positive of Awakening/Fates is at least supports don't take 20 million years to unlock. I think everyone can agree the turncounts for supports from the GBA era were impractical at the best of times and absolutely ridiculous with the +1 growths many units had for lackluster supports (looking at you, Vaida).

Edited March 26, 2016 by Samias

[Emblem Blade]

What you've said could be summarized as "we shouldn't be so hard on the game because we have no idea what happened during the development", which still is an incredible attitude to have on a platform dedicated to discussing the franchise said game belongs to

Yes, I know I said that, I looked at my own posts to see where I was get pointed out at. That was mentioned and it got read as: 'So are you saying that we aren't allowed to criticize the game when we have the right to do so?' Constructive criticism is fine if not a wonderful thing to do as long as you know what you are doing, it's a sign that people want things to improve and they're willing to step up and say what went wrong and what could be done about it. Saying a game is bad and simply saying something in general about the game without going into detail doesn't really show a reason for what was said. If that is what you think I'm lacking and I'm not being careful about in my arguments, that I'm not being detailed enough and I seem off-topic, ok, maybe I'm not your kind of person who is good at responses. I'll recap what my original post to Gaia was trying to say although I can see why he was confused thanks to his last response to me to which I can say I was being far to vague and trying to make everything more confusing when it didn't need to be and that I was perhaps wrong in the end.

-> Some arguments have no supporting details to say why said parts of the game are bad.

*Ex. The game's overall layout was wonderful and the gameplay really stuck out. The story though was horrible due to the way it was written.

**This could be summarized as how Fates is as of now regarding these three features: the music and maps (layout), the details and difficulty of the game (gameplay) and the story. This is one of the common posts found regarding Fates that I've been seeing and that is apparently posted on the thread "Why Conquest is better than Birthright *Spoilers*". Some people will say that some of these aspects are good or bad and not say why by explaining. Saying that one version is better than the other without going into some detail doesn't prove anything for evidence, it's just a personal view that is confusing to understand. Such as hearing 'The story in Conquest is much better than that of Birthright and Revelations' but when then there is no supporting details for that, it looks like someone just posted their view without saying why it is better.

-> Why did I respond to Gaia back then?

--> Other than reading the word 'rushed', hearing the common lining 'Conquest was better than Birthright and Revelation because of the story and gameplay' without knowing why he said that is confusing and still is. Sure, it's his view and it should be respected. But for those who wonder why he said that, does the view show any reasons for why he said that? I'll admit that I ended up jumping the gun and made an accusation instead of asking for what he meant and from there the argument became worse.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Emblem Blade