Birthright vs. Conquest/Revelations

[saisymbolic]

Once again, thanks for all of the comments.

As I was reading what you guys posted, I realized something: I tend to like and keep games that cause me to feel as if my investment in them pays off. I have put $60 or so, hundreds of hours, and a fair amount of effort into Awakening. For me, the game was more than worth what I put into it. I feel the same about some of the other games that I have in my library. Unfortunately, this feeling does not extend to Birthright, whatever the reason may be.

Do you feel as if Fates was worth the investment? Knowing what you know now, would you purchase the games/storylines again? Did you think that the time, money, and effort you put into the game was worth the investment?

Personally, after playing through all the routes several times, I would not purchase all three routes again; I would only get Conquest. The money spent is not necessarily an issue as you get a discount for the route you didn't buy; but, with what is locked on the third path, I don't think it is fair to have to pay $19.99 USD for it. The same for a certain DLC map.

I liked Fates but only one route actually delivered for me. And, even then, there are elements of it that failed spectacularly.

Edited May 6, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Rezzy]

Personally, after playing through all the routes several times, I would not purchase all three routes again; I would only get Conquest. The money spent is not necessarily an issue as you get a discount for the route you didn't buy; but, with what is locked on the third path, I don't think it is fair to have to pay $19.99 USD for it. The same for a certain DLC map.

I liked Fates but only one route actually delivered for me. And, even then, there are elements of it that failed spectacularly.

One perk of buying the extra routes for me, at least, is the extra save files. I hate having to delete files to do a new run.

[saisymbolic]

One perk of buying the extra routes for me, at least, is the extra save files. I hate having to delete files to do a new run.

That is a perk. I have used up all of my slots as of today.

[Phoenix_Kensai]

Do you feel as if Fates was worth the investment? Knowing what you know now, would you purchase the games/storylines again? Did you think that the time, money, and effort you put into the game was worth the investment?

To be honest... probably not. Maybe it's just because I got burnt out as I played all three in a row or something, but...

I loved Conquest. It's hard, but in a good way; the map design consistently impressed me with how creative and interesting it was, and while I often had to restart after making a single stupid mistake, I knew that was my fault. I'm one of the people that liked the story, too. I wouldn't argue that it didn't have problems and wasted potential, but I found it engaging and entertaining regardless. It's comparable to Radiant Dawn's, in my mind; both are ambitious games that fell short in many ways, but not so many that they were at all ruined by their faults.

I played Conquest first, then Birthright after that, and... it felt like a bit of a letdown. I didn't think it was bad. To me, it felt like a more polished Awakening. But the chapters were so much easier and more straightforward than Conquest's, and the story felt like mostly random filler. Both gameplay and story had their good moments, I thought, but too much of the path seemed dull for me to really love it.

Then Revelation... after those two, it seemed like a mix of rehashed content and good ideas stretched way too thin. I felt like the game was mostly a slog at that point. It wasn't painful or anything, but it gave me the impression Intelligent Systems didn't have enough material for three full paths, and Fates would have been better if some elements from Revelation had been mixed in with the other two to fill them out a little.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably just buy Conquest at first, and watch some videos and read some support conversations online to see what I missed with the other two. Probably pick up Birthright at some point in the future, when I felt like playing the game again and knew what to expect. Revelation's biggest appeal to me is the new supports it offers, but I can't see myself buying and playing it just for that.

[eclipse]

Do you feel as if Fates was worth the investment? Knowing what you know now, would you purchase the games/storylines again? Did you think that the time, money, and effort you put into the game was worth the investment?

Definitely.

I like experimenting with my units, and Fates has a lot of customization options. Thus, I can build just about any team I want, refine the results, and repeat until I'm out of ideas. Which will probably be never, due to the sheer amount of combinations.

[Radiant Dragon]

I certainly do not regret my decision to buy all three routes (although I was able to get a Special Edition, to be fair). While yes, even the best of Fate's stories is still worse than any other game's story, the solid gameplay more than makes up for it. Fates did make some important changes to Awakening's engine, but most of them were definitely for the better in my opinion. Pair up was nerfed but it's not random anymore which is huge, and the new seal system makes it much easier (although also more expensive) to grind skills later on. The removal of weapon durability is mostly positive, although I'm split on how effective the way they balanced weapon passives were.

I'd definitely recommend trying out Conquest at least, unless not being able to grind doesn't sound fun to you. Not sure I'd recommend trying out Revelation without playing the other routes first, though. Before buying another path though, why not try playing through Birthright a second time first now that you're more familiar with it? You can use different units and/or strategies, and complete the paralogues before they get out of hand later on, and see how you feel about buying another route then. That seems like the safest option, instead of buying Conquest and/or Revelation and ending up disappointed with those also.

[Inference]

If I'm sizing up your responses well, OP, it seems like you are more interested in being immersed in the world of Fates as an RPG, rather than a turn-based strategy game. I'm not sure if any route will satisfy you in that respect, if Birthright didn't do it for you. Instead I'll say give Conquest a fair run if you can get the discount for it, just out of pure intrigue for the kind of strategy game Fire Emblem can really be.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Inference

[Raybrand]

I preferred Birthright's story the most out of the other two stories, then Revelations then Conquest. Conquest had good maps but difficulty wise on Lunatic I thought Revelations was the hardest

[NekoKnight]

Story-wise, I'd rank them Birthright >> Conquest = Revelation. Which is not to say Birthright is good, it's just the least problematic story. Conquest's story is a trainwreck and Revelation will bore you to tears.

For gameplay, Conquest's level design can't be beat and it's the good kind of challenging. Revelation has a few interesting maps but many of them are painfully tedious, especially early on when you don't have a lot of units to use. Characters and classes are more up to personal tastes and I'm not biased one way or another. If there is a class from the opposite version you really want to play as, you can always give it to Corrin as your secondary class.

Revelation is fun for flexible team building but it's the worst for almost everything else. If you already have Conquest and Birthright, you probably have 'enough' of the Fates experience, in my opinion.

[kcirrot]

Conquest has a significantly better story than Birthright, it also has swell level design and pretty decent difficulty

IMO, Conquest is the worst FE story and not by a little bit. I think Birthright is just a basic hero beats evil empire story. Which is fine, not great but fine. Conquest makes not one bit of sense.

OP:

Revelation is a bit too busy, but it's the "real" (as in it leads to the real antagonist) path and you at least get to play all the characters. That gives you some interesting cross-faction interactions and romances.

[kcirrot]

How is Conquest even bad at all, maybe I went into it with unrealistically low expectations because of how everyone disparaged it, but I thought it was actually pretty clever and unique. I thought a lot of common criticisms, like "Corrin is an asshole" and "The game guilts you for not picking Hoshido," were totally unfounded. Garon becomes a far more effective villain (effective, not necessarily multidimensional) and the story has way more tension on a chapter-to-chapter basis, with actual internal conflict for the main character rather than simple steamrolling unrepentant villains.

Without going into spoilers, I always evaluate a character driven story first by asking, "Would the main character actually be doing this or are they doing it solely to keep the story moving." On that score, Conquest fails extremely early. I simply do not believe that a rational, irrational, good or evil character would behave as Corrin did. It's absurd. I'm finishing up my Lunatic runs, doing Revelation and Birthright first and even though I've played it before, I'm amazed at how unbelievable it is.

[Pixelman]

Without going into spoilers, I always evaluate a character driven story first by asking, "Would the main character actually be doing this or are they doing it solely to keep the story moving." On that score, Conquest fails extremely early. I simply do not believe that a rational, irrational, good or evil character would behave as Corrin did. It's absurd. I'm finishing up my Lunatic runs, doing Revelation and Birthright first and even though I've played it before, I'm amazed at how unbelievable it is.

I'm pretty sure he's being sarcastic

[nhaer042]

Once again, thanks for all of the comments.

As I was reading what you guys posted, I realized something: I tend to like and keep games that cause me to feel as if my investment in them pays off. I have put $60 or so, hundreds of hours, and a fair amount of effort into Awakening. For me, the game was more than worth what I put into it. I feel the same about some of the other games that I have in my library. Unfortunately, this feeling does not extend to Birthright, whatever the reason may be.

Do you feel as if Fates was worth the investment? Knowing what you know now, would you purchase the games/storylines again? Did you think that the time, money, and effort you put into the game was worth the investment?

I know I wouldn't buy Revelations again. I'd definitely buy Conquest again even though the story isn't great (does have some interesting ideas admittedly). It has the best maps and makes you more attentive to how you manage your limited resources. It's certainly difficult but you actually feel a sense of accomplishment once you finally beat a tough level. Birthright and Revelation just don't deliver on that. So, yes, I think Conquest was worth the investment.

[Yvette]

I'd rank them 1. Conquest 2. Birthright 3. Revelations

Conquest, while the story does of course have plenty of problems, actually attempted something new with the series. I liked some of the plot points, of which I will not go into because of spoilers. I found the last 4 or 5 chapters + endgame to be solid storywise. Conquest's problems lie in that the time in between notable plot points is just...irritatingly redundant. Corrin has the most depth, and despite my passionate hatred of this type of character (the I-don't-want-to-kill-people type), I actually felt his/her internal conflict at times, at least in facing the Hoshidan siblings. Gameplay wise Conquest is one of my favorite in the entire FE series, with my very first Fates playthrough on Conquest Hard Mode being very satisfying. To sum it up, nice story idea with shitty execution, but great gameplay and better characters.

Birthright is a typical Fire Emblem game. It doesn't deviate far from the typical plot formula, with a couple of intriguing events yet nothing too horribly cringe either. I can see how someone could prefer this plot, I think for me after playing most of the series it just lacks appeal. Corrin is pretty flat here, doesn't feel much conflict and guilt in their decision as opposed to in Conquest. When the Nohrian siblings accuse you of being brainwashed by the Hoshidans, it feels about right. Gameplay was boring as hell, I found that Conquest hard mode poses more of a challenge (by FAR) than Birthright Lunatic with no grinding. Maps are the typical Rout the Enemy or Defeat the Boss objective, with not so interesting enemy positioning or map design. The characters are mostly enjoyable, also did I mention TacoMeat?​ The plot summarized: "Nohr bad. Me good."

Revelations is, well... boring as fuck. I was honestly excited after playing the first 3 or so chapters after the branch of fate, only to soon be disappointed by a complete drudgery of a plot. Storytelling? None. My god the pacing is bad. Some maps are borrowed from both Birthright and Conquest, although handled differently. Overall gameplay is fine, better maps than Birthright but lacking in the difficulty from Conquest. Slightly more difficult than Birthright. Slightly. I hate the option to grind in both this one and Birthright (and FE as a whole), even if I don't use it. With lunatic difficulty on these two being as lacking as it is, I can't even imagine that normal wouldn't be suitable for the average player without it. But I digress. I understand it being there postgame in order to unlock supports, at the very least.

In comparison to Awakening, I guess anything is more difficult. Conquest is the antithesis of Awakening, while Revelations' difficulty is similar to Birthright's.

[AmericanFox15]

Thanks for all the input you guys have given. I really do appreciate it and I think I know what step I would like to take next. I think I’ll give Conquest a try next. If I like it, great; if not, it’s only twenty bucks and I will have the benefit of warning others what they’re up against.

Inference, your comments got me to thinking about why I had such a problem with Birthright vs. Awakening. I have come to two conclusions. The first is that I enjoy a solid story. I want to care about the characters, about the fate of this fictional world. I want to lose myself in the story. You’re right, I do want an immersive experience when I play a RPG. I can forgive a poor story so long as it doesn’t have any major plot holes which break that immersion.

The second conclusion is that I think part of the problem was how I approached Birthright. I’m not sure if I said it before, but what I was hoping for from Birthright was almost an Awakening 2.0. I was hoping for a game which took the best of Awakening and made it better. In my ignorance, I thought that Awakening represented the pinnacle of the Fire Emblem series; the avatar of decades of attempts at gaming greatness. I approached Fates with that notion stuck in my head, which probably accounts for the majority of my disappointment.

I think that I approached Awakening more as a puzzle than a strategy game, if that makes sense. I didn’t put a great deal of time or effort into trying to master certain mechanics of the game. The stats each character had, for example. Awakening didn’t punish me for this mindset. I feel that Birthright did, and I am certain that Conquest most definitely will.

Let’s assume that my first playthrough of Conquest is in Normal Casual mode. What mindset would you recommend for me when I take a stab at Conquest? What approach should I take? What should I focus my efforts on in the early game?

tl;dr: I approached Fates as a story game and got let down. How do I succeed at Fates when I approach it as an actual strategy game?

[Rezzy]

Let’s assume that my first playthrough of Conquest is in Normal Casual mode. What mindset would you recommend for me when I take a stab at Conquest? What approach should I take? What should I focus my efforts on in the early game?

tl;dr: I approached Fates as a story game and got let down. How do I succeed at Fates when I approach it as an actual strategy game?

Have you played any of the past Fire Emblem games before Awakening? Conquests is much in their vein.

The community is very split on Conquests' story, so don't go in expecting too much, but most of the characters, I liked very much.

Don't try to level everybody in Conquests. XP is a limited resource, unless you use the grinding DLC. Pick about a dozen units you like a use them, benching the rest. You can have a maximum of 16 units in the final few maps, so train no more than 16.

[Thane]

Let’s assume that my first playthrough of Conquest is in Normal Casual mode. What mindset would you recommend for me when I take a stab at Conquest? What approach should I take? What should I focus my efforts on in the early game?

tl;dr: I approached Fates as a story game and got let down. How do I succeed at Fates when I approach it as an actual strategy game?

Well first of all, I personally think playing Conquest on normal defeats the purpose, since many sneaky traps, cool skills and other interesting stuff get removed - they really wanted you to be able to play through the game and see the story if you couldn't handle a harder difficulty. It is, of course, entirely up to you, and even hard mode is very challenging, but from a gameplay perspective, it's very rewarding! I can at least recommend starting on hard and lowering the difficulty later in case you run into too much trouble!

However, there is a reason why so many people dislike Conquest's story; personally I consider Revelation pretty much just as bad, save for a few things that make Revelation slightly more bearable. If you play video games at least partially for the plot, you run a genuine risk of getting frustrated and not care about why you're playing in the first place, which can even affect your enjoyment of the amazing gameplay.

[Rezzy]

Well first of all, I personally think playing Conquest on normal defeats the purpose, since many sneaky traps, cool skills and other interesting stuff get removed - they really wanted you to be able to play through the game and see the story if you couldn't handle a harder difficulty. It is, of course, entirely up to you, and even hard mode is very challenging, but from a gameplay perspective, it's very rewarding! I can at least recommend starting on hard and lowering the difficulty later in case you run into too much trouble!

However, there is a reason why so many people dislike Conquest's story; personally I consider Revelation pretty much just as bad, save for a few things that make Revelation slightly more bearable. If you play video games at least partially for the plot, you run a genuine risk of getting frustrated and not care about why you're playing in the first place, which can even affect your enjoyment of the amazing gameplay.

Without going into spoilers, I at least found Conquests' story engaging. I wanted to play each chapter to see what happened next. I don't hate it like some, but it was never boring at least.

Revelations, however was boring after Chapter 18. From Chapter 18 until the end game, there's about 3-4 chapters worth of story stretched over the rest of the game. They wasted a lot of potential for world building. It was surprising, because Rev chapters 6-18 actually kept a brisk narrative pace.

[eclipse]

Lets assume that my first playthrough of Conquest is in Normal Casual mode. What mindset would you recommend for me when I take a stab at Conquest? What approach should I take? What should I focus my efforts on in the early game?

tl;dr: I approached Fates as a story game and got let down. How do I succeed at Fates when I approach it as an actual strategy game?

The only thing I'll say about Awakening's story is that it was my least favorite across all Fire Emblem games.

Anyway. . .

Nohr's weapons won't throw weird stat boosts your way. This is sometimes a good thing (katanas) and sometimes not (shuriken, and to a lesser extent, naginata and yumi). I suggest hitting up a few Hoshido castles for the following:

- Iron Naginata

- Iron Shuriken

- Iron Yumi

- Brass Yumi

Iron Naginata allows your tanks to tank better. Iron Shuriken gives a really nice Speed boost, which will help whoever wields is double more often. The yumi have +1 MT/-10 Hit compared to bows. The extra MT helps to set up kills.

Next, I much prefer having Jakob as a starting servant over Felicia - he'll be able to damage and possibly kill things with easily-obtained stuff. While Felicia's doable, she'll either need to reclass or wait until Chapter 12 to become terrifying.

The game will throw a LOT of characters are you. Some of them will grow fairly well on their own (Silas). You'll want to recruit others for their bases (you'll know 'em when you see 'em). I'll spoiler who does what exceptionally well below:

Xander - Just as Ryoma was ridiculous in Birthright, Xander can fill that niche in Conquest. He'll do so by tanking everything.

Camilla - She'll be useful no matter what. Even as Xander's pair-up partner.

Keaton - Unlike Kaden, he's meant to hit hard and take physical abuse in return. If you marry him off, he'll get access to Beastrune, which makes him a very impressive wall.

Effie/Beruka - You can either use 'em as actual units, or you can have them be pair-up bots. They both have very good personal skills, though be warned that Beruka has some wonky mods she passes down to her kid. Benny can fill this niche as well, though he comes much later.

Laslow - He can either be used for his mini-rally (which is really nice), or he can be reclassed into Ninja to take care of his persistent Speed issues. Or both.

Mozu - Reclass her to Archer and pair her up with someone offensive. She'll hit pretty hard, and unlike Niles, she won't have quite as many accuracy issues (especially after she promotes to Sniper).

Niles - He's got a lot of utility, and he'll be able to kill things decently enough on his own. His Skill's a bit suspect, though.

Azura - She's a huge help in this campaign, because things aren't going to go down as swiftly as Birthright (especially late game). The small stat boost she gives once she hits level 10 is also helpful.

When it comes to Odin/Nyx, Odin's better for his durability, while Nyx's personal skill is hilarious against other mages. The sane choice is Odin.

Since you're on Casual, don't be afraid if someone picks off one of your units. Corrin's Dragonstone will be especially useful early-on, when you lack proper tanks.

[Thane]

Without going into spoilers, I at least found Conquests' story engaging. I wanted to play each chapter to see what happened next. I don't hate it like some, but it was never boring at least.

Revelations, however was boring after Chapter 18. From Chapter 18 until the end game, there's about 3-4 chapters worth of story stretched over the rest of the game. They wasted a lot of potential for world building. It was surprising, because Rev chapters 6-18 actually kept a brisk narrative pace.

Revelation was boring, Conquest made me want to kick a puppy out of frustration. In Revelation, those moments were at least few and far between.

[Dark Sage]

I'll give Fates this, at least all three stories are better than Xenosaga's.

But then cleaning the toilet is better than Xenosaga.

[saisymbolic]

I'll give Fates this, at least all three stories are better than Xenosaga's.

But then cleaning the toilet is better than Xenosaga.

Hey, don't diss Xenosaga.

It gave birth to Albedo. That is all.

The story is confusing as hell tho

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'll give Fates this, at least all three stories are better than Xenosaga's.

But then cleaning the toilet is better than Xenosaga.

You, you are my new friend.

I could rant about how Xenosaga's story does far worse things than Fire Emblem ever dreams of but that would be a pretty colossal derail. The short version is that me:Xenosaga III::Thane:Conquest. :p

To return to the main thread of the conversation, I don't think playing Conquest on Normal is unreasonable at all, especially if you don't live and breath Fire Emblem. I've seen some of my more casual FE fan friends play Conquest Normal and find it adequately challenging. It still maintains a lot of its bite, at least on Classic. (Normal Casual is pushing it more, but still might be appropriate for some people.) That said, I do generally second the idea that it's better to err on the side of starting on the more challenging mode, and adjusting down if you find it more challenging than you like.

[eclipse]

You, you are my new friend.

I could rant about how Xenosaga's story does far worse things than Fire Emblem ever dreams of but that would be a pretty colossal derail. The short version is that me:Xenosaga III::Thane:Conquest. :p

To return to the main thread of the conversation, I don't think playing Conquest on Normal is unreasonable at all, especially if you don't live and breath Fire Emblem. I've seen some of my more casual FE fan friends play Conquest Normal and find it adequately challenging. It still maintains a lot of its bite, at least on Classic. (Normal Casual is pushing it more, but still might be appropriate for some people.) That said, I do generally second the idea that it's better to err on the side of starting on the more challenging mode, and adjusting down if you find it more challenging than you like.

Go back and read what OP said about difficulty in the opening post. Now try to look at it from his point of view, instead of yours.

[FluffyWarlock]

Revelation was boring, Conquest made me want to kick a puppy out of frustration. In Revelation, those moments were at least few and far between.

Instead of kicking a puppy, why not play Dark Souls?