Leo and Takumi as the protagonists of Fire Emblem Fates

[Alazen]

But I subscribe to the definition of racism as prejudice + power; in Fates, Nohr is the dominant, invasive power.

You should know damn well that's not the origin of the term (even if tumblr pretends otherwise), nor does it jive with reality unless you tell me that say, every White person has power over Barack Obama or Carlos Slim just for being White.

Anyway, the point that Leo or Takumi wouldn't have Corrin's ties to both factions goes down from how you could achieve something like it from just letting the player have the option of picking which Lord to follow. You can tone down Nohr's National Baby Punting and play up Hoshido's ''darkness'' to have our Lords doubt the causes of their nations.

[Res]

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it sounds as if you think Corrin works better as a protagonist because the plot is tailor-made for him; I'd assume certain things would change, or else, again, we wouldn't have much to discuss. Takumi and Leo being generals in a war that actually has a reason behind it could be very interesting, and since they're not customizable, I'd hope Intelligent Systems wouldn't be as afraid to actually make them firmly established characters, in contrast to the dry piece of cardboard that is Corrin.

I'm struggling to articulate myself today, and I'm beginning to lose the original point I was trying to make, but I'll see if I can respond to this (my apologies if I make no sense!):

Well, to a degree, yes, I do. I mean the story of Conquest/Birthright could be changed to accommodate Leo/Takumi as protagonists, but I feel it would have to change pretty significantly and at that point you're no longer talking about the same games. The OP asked if Leo/Takumi should be the protagonists of Birthright/Conquest and I'm taking that to mean as the games currently stand, or with minor changes.

I also think Corrin could have been written to still be customizable and not such a dry piece of cardboard, and to fit within the current games with minor changes. That is what I'd rather see, if we were to be given a different protagonist.

[Thane]

I'm struggling to articulate myself today, and I'm beginning to lose the original point I was trying to make, but I'll see if I can respond to this (my apologies if I make no sense!):

Well, to a degree, yes, I do. I mean the story of Conquest/Birthright could be changed to accommodate Leo/Takumi as protagonists, but I feel it would have to change pretty significantly and at that point you're no longer talking about the same games. The OP asked if Leo/Takumi should be the protagonists of Birthright/Conquest and I'm taking that to mean as the games currently stand, or with minor changes.

I also think Corrin could have been written to still be customizable and not such a dry piece of cardboard, and to fit within the current games with minor changes. That is what I'd rather see, if we were to be given a different protagonist.

Ah, I see. In that case, yeah, I agree; Corrin would more or less have to take the role of Robin if they were to make Takumi or Leo the protagonists. I suppose they'd need to rewrite quite a few things like that anyway, especially since Corrin is often portrayed as strategically stupid.

I wonder why they chose to give Corrin so many bloody siblings, now that I think about it.

[Alazen]

It's called pandering.

Every one of Corrin's siblings fits into some niche that can be pandered to (even beyond the incest scene). Camilla fills double duty on sexy mommy and sexy big sis, Hinoka's there for the tomboy crowd, etc.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Alazen

[Thane]

It's called pandering.

Every one of Corrin's siblings fits into some niche that can be pandered to (even beyond the incest scene). Camilla fills double duty on sexy mommy and sexy big sis, Hinoka's there for the tomboy crowd, etc.

Oh I'm well aware of that, but they didn't necessarily have to be his siblings or even main characters; look at how people fawn over Zero, for instance. Even the most inexperienced writer should be able to tell that more main characters equal less time devoted to them in the main story.

[Namarid]

I wonder why they chose to give Corrin so many bloody siblings, now that I think about it.

(You're asking too many questions thane, you know well enough that trying to comprehend some of the decisions made in this game is a futile endeavour.)

I think 3 on each side is more than enough and the elder sisters would be the ones to get cut, from a story stand point they're just so irrelevant and I can't think of a reason to justify their inclusion. You have sakura/Elise for heartbreak, ryona/xander for an imposing threat and takumi/Leo to allow both the main character and themselves to grow.

(If only I was a component writer I'd start my own rewrite.)

[Alazen]

Corrin certainly has too many siblings yes. All of his sisters are disposable once you look beyond their bit parts.

[Thane]

(You're asking too many questions thane, you know well enough that trying to comprehend some of the decisions made in this game is a futile endeavour.)

Welp, someone's got to ask the difficult questions. But you're right, I'll probably never find the answers I seek, like, "what the hell were you smoking when writing this?"

Corrin certainly has too many siblings yes. All of his sisters are disposable once you look beyond their bit parts.

Remind me again, what does Ryouma do in the main story that's so important?

[Alazen]

Serve to show that Corrin a good boy who dindu nuffin' of course.

[Ebony]

Welp, someone's got to ask the difficult questions. But you're right, I'll probably never find the answers I seek, like, "what the hell were you smoking when writing this?"

Remind me again, what does Ryouma do in the main story that's so important?

Be a cool dude. :C

Corrin certainly has too many siblings yes. All of his sisters are disposable once you look beyond their bit parts.

As much as I've grown to Camilla and I like the little sisters, yeah.

[Xaltago]

They would function as protags fairly well, but the story would need a slight changing. Would Corrin even exist in some form if either of Leo or Takumi took the MC spot?

If Fates' organization of chapters and story was chipped into one game and more after the Radiant Dawn progression, sure (though that would probably require children characters to be re-thought-of entirely). And an Avatar would have to be restructured (though if Corrin needed to be in 2-3 places at once, I'm sure Fates would comply).

[Tolvir]

I say yes.

They are both the younger characters, and have flaws that they would need to work through to grow in the end. Leo would work well in Conquest considering his much more strategic nature, and the calm and patience to try and organize a revolution to overthrow his father and stop the invasion. Takumi would work well for Birthright I am sure, I just dont have the best knowledge of the game to say how.

I still think Corrin could of had a place in the story. Much similar to Robin's role, minus the large part Robin had in the end, would work well so that it doesnt feel like the game is going to constantly praise the player, but still includes the ability for the player to have the freedom of creating their own character.

[NekoKnight]

It's easy to say Leon and Takumi are more interesting characters but much of the story would have to be restructured to get the same kind of emotional impact because the plot is tailor-made for Kamui to be the center of the family drama. Kamui has the backstory and circumstances to be the best protagonist but they gave him a generic self-insert personality and went overboard on the player worship.

I think Leo would make a good protagonist. He is relatable enough even if he's not the cheeriest lord, and he actually has drive that Kamui lacks, so we could actually get the "reform Nohr" story with him as the lead. Xander I feel is a better fit as a Camus that stays loyal to Garon once Leo and sisters rebel and only joins you after you beat him and some serious shit goes down.

Birthright is a bit harder to imagine with Takumi but I think he makes more sense as the main character than Ryoma or his sisters. Although Hinoka could work too with some work. I haven't really thought as much about how Birthright could be improved tbh.

I can get behind these ideas. Leon would made a good anti-hero protagonist which would fit in the morally grey premise of Conquest. I think Takumi is defined by not being the main character so Hinoka would be preferable.

[xiaopan1987]

If they were protags... Story will basically be Leo killing Hoshidians and Takumi killing Nohrians. Like they don't have any reason to think anything else. No "glue" aside from Azura for Revelations to occur... Yeah...

[blah the Prussian]

War crimes? It gets a little murky talking about racism in war time, since every country at war is busy being shitty.

Then isn't it just the case that every country is racist? What I'm getting at here is that this definition can only feasibly work domestically, and not internationally. And Imperial Japan didn't just want to do War Crimes, they very explicitly had the intention of committing ethnic cleansing against all Whites in Asia and the Pacific. But we're getting off topic. The issue is not that Takumi is pissed at Nohr, the issue is that he pretty clearly consistently treats Azura like shit for being Nohrian, and that happens before Corrin does his whole "kill Mikoto accidentally" shit. These are legitimate character flaws, and in a better written story (as obviously the story would have to change) Takumi, confronted with Nohr's legitimate (in this version they will be somewhat) motives for going to war softens his attitude. It also is clear that systematic racism doesn't effect Takumi personally, nor does it effect basically any of the Hoshidans who don't live near the border. Ironically I don't believe any of the Nohrians say anything about the Hoshidans being an inferior race or whatever.

[NekoKnight]

Then isn't it just the case that every country is racist? What I'm getting at here is that this definition can only feasibly work domestically, and not internationally. And Imperial Japan didn't just want to do War Crimes, they very explicitly had the intention of committing ethnic cleansing against all Whites in Asia and the Pacific. But we're getting off topic. The issue is not that Takumi is pissed at Nohr, the issue is that he pretty clearly consistently treats Azura like shit for being Nohrian, and that happens before Corrin does his whole "kill Mikoto accidentally" shit. These are legitimate character flaws, and in a better written story (as obviously the story would have to change) Takumi, confronted with Nohr's legitimate (in this version they will be somewhat) motives for going to war softens his attitude. It also is clear that systematic racism doesn't effect Takumi personally, nor does it effect basically any of the Hoshidans who don't live near the border. Ironically I don't believe any of the Nohrians say anything about the Hoshidans being an inferior race or whatever.

Small point: While Takumi being a dick to Azura because of her heritage is a legitimate flaw, it's not like he only had a reason to dislike Nohr after Mikoto was killed. His dad was also murdered by Nohrians and Nohr frequently sends in Faceless to attack Hoshido. Racism seems like the most 'normal' flaw a person could have for two nations who have perpetual hostile relations.

[blah the Prussian]

Small point: While Takumi being a dick to Azura because of her heritage is a legitimate flaw, it's not like he only had a reason to dislike Nohr after Mikoto was killed. His dad was also murdered by Nohrians and Nohr frequently sends in Faceless to attack Hoshido. Racism seems like the most 'normal' flaw a person could have for two nations who have perpetual hostile relations.

Eh, its a natural human reaction. Its still a flaw that needs to be worked out.

[Res]

The issue is not that Takumi is pissed at Nohr, the issue is that he pretty clearly consistently treats Azura like shit for being Nohrian, and that happens before Corrin does his whole "kill Mikoto accidentally" shit. These are legitimate character flaws, and in a better written story (as obviously the story would have to change) Takumi, confronted with Nohr's legitimate (in this version they will be somewhat) motives for going to war softens his attitude.

Does he?

His support with Azura suggests he treated her like shit because he didn't like being forced to accept her as part of the family, not because she's Nohrian (and even then, 'like shit' is probably a bit of an exaggeration, Azura feels confident enough in their C-rank to tell him his kimono is twisted, so they can't be entirely antagonistic towards one another or else she wouldn't have dared approach him at all). He doesn't hurl any racial-related slurs at her that I can recall until she's already joined Nohr, in Conquest.

Of course, if you go by their S-rank, Takumi actually always loved her, he just didn't want her as a sister.

Unlike Oboro, for example, Takumi actually says nothing about hating all Nohrians in any of his supports. He's actually pretty eager to read about Nohrian history and strategy in his supports with both Leo and Elise.

I'm also curious how 'Nohrian scum' (which is the only racially-related insult the game gives us) came to be so heavily associated with Takumi, when the first few chapters of all three games have Hinoka saying it, and Oboro saying it, but not Takumi.

Anyway, to relate this all back to the topic at hand, I still don't think Takumi would work well as a protagonist for all the reasons I and others have already stated, but with a little rewriting, he could easily be one. He undergoes quite a lot of personal growth and development as it is, especially taking his supports into consideration, but also taking into his account his role in Birthright. It'd be interesting to see him dealing internally with his possession (I'm also reminded of Bioware's Jade Empire here).

[blah the Prussian]

Does he?

His support with Azura suggests he treated her like shit because he didn't like being forced to accept her as part of the family, not because she's Nohrian (and even then, 'like shit' is probably a bit of an exaggeration, Azura feels confident enough in their C-rank to tell him his kimono is twisted, so they can't be entirely antagonistic towards one another or else she wouldn't have dared approach him at all). He doesn't hurl any racial-related slurs at her that I can recall until she's already joined Nohr, in Conquest.

Of course, if you go by their S-rank, Takumi actually always loved her, he just didn't want her as a sister.

Unlike Oboro, for example, Takumi actually says nothing about hating all Nohrians in any of his supports. He's actually pretty eager to read about Nohrian history and strategy in his supports with both Leo and Elise.

I'm also curious how 'Nohrian scum' (which is the only racially-related insult the game gives us) came to be so heavily associated with Takumi, when the first few chapters of all three games have Hinoka saying it, and Oboro saying it, but not Takumi.

Anyway, to relate this all back to the topic at hand, I still don't think Takumi would work well as a protagonist for all the reasons I and others have already stated, but with a little rewriting, he could easily be one. He undergoes quite a lot of personal growth and development as it is, especially taking his supports into consideration, but also taking into his account his role in Birthright. It'd be interesting to see him dealing internally with his possession (I'm also reminded of Bioware's Jade Empire here).

Okay in my defense I haven't read the supports. But yeah, based on the evidence Takumi has been treating Azura like shit for a decade. No one is expecting him to warm up to her, but don't treat her like an outsider consistently. That is bullying at best, and I can't see how it can be said it isn't related to her being Nohrian; he calls her an outsider for fucks sake. I personally consider S-supports non canon, as well. Of course, the story could and should be changed here, although no possession unless he's a sympathetic villain.

[Nanima]

Okay in my defense I haven't read the supports. But yeah, based on the evidence Takumi has been treating Azura like shit for a decade. No one is expecting him to warm up to her, but don't treat her like an outsider consistently. That is bullying at best, and I can't see how it can be said it isn't related to her being Nohrian; he calls her an outsider for fucks sake. I personally consider S-supports non canon, as well. Of course, the story could and should be changed here, although no possession unless he's a sympathetic villain.

Actually, Takumi's treatment of Azura is a bit sketchy (at least in the japanese, which is the one I played). They already seem to be a bit close in their c-support, and on Conquest Azura explicitly notes that while Takumi never really accepted her as family, he was never cruel to her and showed her kindness on occasion. That moment in the square is also an outlier, as it already features the biggest outsider of them all in it: Corrin. Sure Takumi's lashing out at her there wasn't justified at all, but it really doesn't represent how he treated her on a day-to-day basis.

It's also mentioned how Azura is distant to all the royals, and really everyone in Hoshido, except Sakura. In the japanese, she makes a point to never use sibling honorifics with either Hinoka and Ryouma. It's mentioned that she isolated herself from them all, so it's no wonder that she and Takumi never really formed a bond. The rejection came from both sides.

[Res]

Yeah, I can understand viewing the S-supports as non-canon.

It'd be interesting to see what you think of Takumi after viewing his supports. He definitely displays considerable growth in them.

'Outsider' could just be outsider to the family, which given how Takumi already feels insecure within his own family (Hinoka and Ryoma spending so much time dwelling on Corrin, and ignoring him), makes sense.

'Like shit' - I probably have a skewed view on this, since my siblings and I were at each other's throats (oftentimes quite literally) growing up. We make Azura and Takumi look like BFFs by comparison, ha.

Conquest Azura explicitly notes that while Takumi never really accepted her as family, he was never cruel to her and showed her kindness on occasion.

Ooh, I forgot about this - the very same line is in the English version, too. So yes. Chapter 13:

• Azura: ...That is not the Takumi I once knew. He's changed.
• Avatar: What do you mean? How so?
• Azura: Takumi never accepted me as his sister like the others, but he was always kind. He's not the type to raise his voice or threaten to hurt anyone. I can't explain it, but it's like he's a different person...

Edited May 12, 2016 by Res

[blah the Prussian]

Yeah, I can understand viewing the S-supports as non-canon.

It'd be interesting to see what you think of Takumi after viewing his supports. He definitely displays considerable growth in them.

'Outsider' could just be outsider to the family, which given how Takumi already feels insecure within his own family (Hinoka and Ryoma spending so much time dwelling on Corrin, and ignoring him), makes sense.

'Like shit' - I probably have a skewed view on this, since my siblings and I were at each other's throats (oftentimes quite literally) growing up. We make Azura and Takumi look like BFFs by comparison, ha.

Ooh, I forgot about this - the very same line is in the English version, too. So yes. Chapter 13:

• Azura: ...That is not the Takumi I once knew. He's changed.
• Avatar: What do you mean? How so?
• Azura: Takumi never accepted me as his sister like the others, but he was always kind. He's not the type to raise his voice or threaten to hurt anyone. I can't explain it, but it's like he's a different person...

Yep okay, I give. I do think its bad writing (what else is new) because its inconsistent with his earlier actions. Regardless, his hatred for Nohr is a character flaw. Then again for true story to be good it would have to be completely rebuilt.

[TheWerdna]

Yep okay, I give. I do think its bad writing (what else is new) because its inconsistent with his earlier actions. Regardless, his hatred for Nohr is a character flaw. Then again for true story to be good it would have to be completely rebuilt.

Wasn't the point that Anankos was messing with Takumi's mind? Feeding his anger and such?

[Res]

Wasn't the point that Anankos was messing with Takumi's mind? Feeding his anger and such?

Yes, although I know people's opinions differ as to when this started. For me, it's first hinted at in Conquest Ch. 10 (the first time you see Takumi after choosing Nohr).