(Thought/Debate) Are the "royals" really viable ?

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

Hi,

first of all I'd like to say that this post will countain minor spoiler about Hoshido and Nohr's prince(sse)s and their joining chapter. By royals I mean those of them who join prepromoted, i.e. Ryoma, Xander, Camilla and Leo (Elise, Sakura, Takumi and Hinoka look like "standard" units because they join your party like any other character). So I was wondering if the use of "royals" is really beneficial?

In Fire Emblem series, pre-promoted units used to be "bad" units that join your roster ridiculously powerful, but become obsolete quickly because of their bad growth rates (and the little EXP they got from a fight), that's why you had to use them only when it was neccessary otherwise they "stole" EXP for your other units (but I don't teach you anything I guess). BUT Fates'royals look kinda different from Frederick,Seth,Gunter, etc. They have some assets, but many flaws.

Most of them own a unique and powerful weapon (Siegbert, Brynhildr, Raijinto) and have correct growths overall. But they join far too early IMO (Camilla joins in chapter 10, Leo in chapter 14, Xander, 15, and Ryoma 13) when ennemy units are not promoted, so you can't use them immediatly (without shooting yourself in the feet). But once your other units finally catch up with them, they are a bit outdated (due to the fact that their base stats should not be too high for their joining chapter), and this difference tends to get bigger. When they kill someone, I still have the feeling that they keep gaining less EXP than my other units.

From my personal experience, in my Conquest playthrough, all my main units are around level 20/8-9 for now, and if Xander is still usable (thanks to his tank-y stats and Siegfried) but clearly outdated by my other units, Leo is a deadweight, whereas he didn't even got RNG-screwed: he's clearly bad everywhere (low Str, Mag, Skl, Spd, Def and even Res) and Brynhildr isn't good enough to make up for this shortfall.

So I'm looking for informed answers: are they really sustainable in the long term ? Are they worth spending so much precious EXP in a grindless playthrough for example ?

Thank you in advance!

[Ownagepuffs]

They are undeniably the best units.

[Locke087]

This is a misconception most pre-promotes are actually pretty dang good throughout the entire series some of them being the best units in the respective games (like Seth). There are crappy pre-promotes (like Gunter or a lot of FE 12's roster) but they are the exception rather than the rule. All Royals in this game are monsters and are among the best units in the game, Shura is good too, and Izana is okay, Reina and Scarlet are good as well (no idea how Reina turns out long-term but she does her job), no idea about Fuga never used him as revelations is royals +3 to 4 other units emblem.

[Thor Odinson]

Viable? More like anything from "pretty good" to "fucking OP". The only thing preventing Ryoma from being as bullshit broken as Seth and Sigurd is his availability. Anything remotely difficult in BR? Not anymore. Throw Ryoma at it and laugh.

I can hardly imagine doing Conquest 10 Lunatic without Camilla. People who did no royal Conquest Lunatic, do you allow her for the chapter since she's forced, or do you somehow keep her out of the way?

Most Prepromotes in this game are solid to start with, and the Royals aren't burdened with the lack of supports from being a Cornsexual. The only reasons you shouldn't use them is if you don't like them as characters or if you think they make everything too easy and want more challenge.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[kantoorfarina]

Hi,

first of all I'd like to say that this post will countain minor spoiler about Hoshido and Nohr's prince(sse)s and their joining chapter. By royals I mean those of them who join prepromoted, i.e. Ryoma, Xander, Camilla and Leo (Elise, Sakura, Takumi and Hinoka look like "standard" units because they join your party like any other character). So I was wondering if the use of "royals" is really beneficial?

In Fire Emblem series, pre-promoted units used to be "bad" units that join your roster ridiculously powerful, but become obsolete quickly because of their bad growth rates (and the little EXP they got from a fight), that's why you had to use them only when it was neccessary otherwise they "stole" EXP for your other units (but I don't teach you anything I guess). BUT Fates'royals look kinda different from Frederick,Seth,Gunter, etc. They have some assets, but many flaws.

Most of them own a unique and powerful weapon (Siegbert, Brynhildr, Raijinto) and have correct growths overall. But they join far too early IMO (Camilla joins in chapter 10, Leo in chapter 14, Xander, 15, and Ryoma 13) when ennemy units are not promoted, so you can't use them immediatly (without shooting yourself in the feet). But once your other units finally catch up with them, they are a bit outdated (due to the fact that their base stats should not be too high for their joining chapter), and this difference tends to get bigger. When they kill someone, I still have the feeling that they keep gaining less EXP than my other units.

From my personal experience, in my Conquest playthrough, all my main units are around level 20/8-9 for now, and if Xander is still usable (thanks to his tank-y stats and Siegfried) but clearly outdated by my other units, Leo is a deadweight, whereas he didn't even got RNG-screwed: he's clearly bad everywhere (low Str, Mag, Skl, Spd, Def and even Res) and Brynhildr isn't good enough to make up for this shortfall.

So I'm looking for informed answers: are they really sustainable in the long term ? Are they worth spending so much precious EXP in a grindless playthrough for example ?

y

Thank you in advance!

Jagens and prepromotes are generally some of the best units in the series. The amounts of exp they "steal" is a low price to pay for how earlygame on some of the harder difficulties is basically impossible without them. The Fates royals are even better than most, Xander is amazing from start to finish with the right tonics and a Charlotte pair-up, Ryoma is an insta-win button even on Lunatic, Camilla is the hero of Chapter 10 and is also very useful for the next few chapters, Takumi is one of if not the best archer in the series, etc.

Edited June 2, 2016 by kantoorfarina

[Lady Sansa]

lol

[Delfino]

I have to disagree with the royals not being viable. Their growths are outstanding, the males have weapons that are borderline broken, the younger sisters start at such low levels that they have tons of room to grow, and the older sisters start with great stats, have some excellent reclassing options (Hinoka -> Spear Master, Camilla -> Dark Knight), and Camilla starts gaining decent exp quicker than you'd think she would. Takumi is widely accepted as being the best archer to date, Xander's tankiness and 1-2 range is a godsend in Conquest, helping to keep those pesky ninjas in check, while Ryoma doubles and destroys everything with astra and Raijinto's crit rate. Even if your units start catching up, the royals can catch back up with their awesome growths. I benched Ryoma for several chapters in Birthright Hard mode after I got him, and he was still god-tier when I picked him up later.

Leo, I'd say, is probably the most prone to falling behind, however. His main problem is that by the time he can actually start gaining experience, you're in the anti-mage hell of a ninja pit that is chapter 17. Pair him up with someone who gives speed and keep him relevant, though, and he can ultimately keep up with his great magic stat. Chapter 18 gives a lot of opportunities for him to level with Generals running around who can't be doubled, anyway.

[Reject]

They don't call Birthright "Ryoma Emblem" for nothing, you know.

[GoXDS]

it should also be noted that you shouldn't compare some of the royals at equal lvls, since they're prepromoted. you have to remember they might be "early prepromotes" like Camilla is not a 20/1 but something like 14/1?

Ryoma: he should definitely be viable and quite difficult to fall behind with unless he was RNG screwed or just underlvled since you really didn't use him. 1-2 range, nice speed as Swordmaster, high Mt w/ Crit, no negative effects and gives +4 Str, what is there not to like. also has easy to use and useful Personal

Xander: he'll always have some Spd issues but can be remedied by Tonics or Pair Ups. like Ryoma, 1-2 ranged and high Mt w/ no negatives is great. his bulk is definitely top tier (especially with +4 Def), only outclassed by possibly Effie but w/o the Armored weakness and more Mov. like Ryoma, it's kinda hard for Xander not to have some use at least. also has easy to use and useful Personal

Camilla: as I already said, she's an early promoted prepromote. just compare her exp gains and you'll see that her internal lvl is lower than 20/x. all of her growths across the board are great. her Personal is also quite useful and since she likes being in the action anyways, not that difficult to make use of (compared to Elise)

Leo: he's probably the most prone to being meh, at least from my playstyle. he also has Spd problems and while he does have some bulk, not nearly as good as Xander's. he really is, imo, a poor man's Xander. he also has some Skl issues. iirc, he is a early promote as well though something like 18/X, so not much difference. his Personal is still decent though still a tad less useful than Xander's (since ideally, you want to ORKO enemies, right?). Leo is probably still one of the better units but definitely not as easily abusable as Xander is

[B.Leu]

Can't really blame you for thinking that way one bit, Fire Emblem was pretty heavy on the 'You DON'T use pre-promoted unit, ESPECIALLY not the Jeigans.'... then units like Seth or our one and true goddess Crittania popped out.

We've come as far as having a Swordmaster (Ryouma), a glass cannon class... having good defense, better speed, crit and str than usual. Camilla, you expect a flying jack-of-all-stats class to be crap, well nope, and then there is Xander.

I was feeling pretty weirded out too at first, then Takumi, just Takumi.

Leon is, imo, though I'm apparently not the only one to think so, the weakest,more prone to be screwed over by the RNG, and left being... which doesn't mean much after what the game give to you.

Of course don't rely fully on them, or you'll have a bad time..., I think ? I'm no expert,but I suppose some people tried to do Royal Only Run, no ?

[kcirrot]

Sorry for the broken record, but Ryoma is more than viable, tied with the Avatar IMO. As for the rest:

Elise: Everytime I've used her she became an absolutely fearsome mage.

Sakura: Gave her a shining bow and wound up with an assassin that can heal

Takumi: Fujin Yumi plus Sniper's good stats make him great. Point blank will make him near as good as Ryoma.

Xander: Tank with no downside 1-2 range. Yes please.

Camilla and Leo: Both are solid, but I do tend to think they are no better than other good units like Ophelia.

[Thor Odinson]

Mid-to-Lategame Conquest Camilla's exp gains are kinda nuts. She pretty much levels up every few turns.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

So I've seen a lot of interesting opinions and I'm glad to see so many long answers!

About the pre-promoted units in former opus, I don't really agree that they are good units. Some are good (like Seth, because you could grind in Sacred Stones, I recognize this wasn't a good example) but most of them are meh once the first chapters are done. Frederick for example is a huge waste of EXP in Awakening in harder difficulties if you're doing a no-grind run (but what's the point of playing Lunatic/Lunatic+ if you grind all your characters and just have to move them without any strategy). You can see a good example of it in Oddone's lunatic run on Youtube (he used him until chapter 15 I think (he was something like level 17), and he turned really bad and just stole all of the exp. I mean, if he gets 8 Exp per fight whereas normal unit can get 30, with 17 levels like that, it's really a huge amount of EXP that you lose. Same thing with Radiant Dawn's Laguz and prepromoted units (Tauroneo) in Micaiah's party. They get 1 EXP per fight! It's ridiculous when you know DB's units are far behind GM (when you reach the end of part 3 your DB units are 20 levels behind GM (and have garbage stats of course)! and you face the same ennemies in Part 4)

I didn't play Birthright yet but I must admit Ryoma and Takumi look broken. For the other ones (Nohr), I know they aren't really 20/8 BUT Royals and retainers both are limited to level 20 promoted (except if you use an eternal seal of course, but it's really expensive and not reasonable for a no-grind Conquest run, or maybe in Normal mode) and royals will be behind at this point, due to their "low" base stats (for a promoted unit of course). For example, my Peri beats Xander everywhere except Defense. But I recognize Xander is useful and works well as a tank for now (but Effie is incredible in this role too). When you play on characters assets and flaw he's good if played correctly. But I can just waste a slot to give him Charlotte honestly. It depends on how one's play, but IMO an "operationnal" unit can't be lost for a pair up.

About Camilla, I don't know 'cause I didn't use her that much (she just got 2 pegasi in chapter 10 and a ninja in top left of chapter 17 and a few dual strikes between), but I really think she joins far too early (fourth chapter of Conquest...) so she gets bad stats for a promoted level 1 unit. Her growths are OK, but when you can FINALLY use her she's behind everybody (but she could be viable if RNG-blessed). I'm sorry it's again this story of EXP stealing...

But Leo I just don't know what to do with him and you too apparently. His stats are so meh he just can't fill any role.

Thank you for your answers, it's really interesting to discuss with you!

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Fred still makes a really good pair-up bot once he's worn out his welcome as a lead, so he's more than usable for a large portion of the game.

Sure, all the royal pre-promotes join a tad early, but it doesn't take long for them to start gaining EXP from combat (usually within 2 maps) and it's easy enough to rig things so that they won't one-round enemies (unless carrying out an emergency assassination), so they can be used for safe, easy weakening of enemies for the other units. On top of that, they make excellent Attack Stance partners (where they won't "steal" much EXP) and provide important auras, such as Camilla's personal (which is just pure amazing... who doesn't want to deal 3 more damage with their attacks?) or Leo having 8 Move Heartseeker.

One thing worth noting about Ryoma is that at base stats, he can hop right into Lunatic Birthright 23 and still take on multiple enemies. Ridiculously powerful is almost an understatement.

[The Geek]

Frederick is only one example of a prepromote that might not turn out great.

Seth in Sacred Stones is ridiculous because he has the same stats joining in the Prologue as any Cavalier you'd train up would have at 20/1. He doesn't need to grow that much because his base stats are ridiculous. Same goes for Marcus in FE7

In fact, FE7 is pretty much the king of awesome prepromote units. Marcus, Pent, Louise, Hawkeye, Jaffar, Vaida, etc. all are great units pretty much from the get go.

Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem are pretty much the only games where prepromotes are consistently bad.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

Fred still makes a really good pair-up bot once he's worn out his welcome as a lead, so he's more than usable for a large portion of the game.

Sure, all the royal pre-promotes join a tad early, but it doesn't take long for them to start gaining EXP from combat (usually within 2 maps) and it's easy enough to rig things so that they won't one-round enemies (unless carrying out an emergency assassination), so they can be used for safe, easy weakening of enemies for the other units. On top of that, they make excellent Attack Stance partners (where they won't "steal" much EXP) and provide important auras, such as Camilla's personal (which is just pure amazing... who doesn't want to deal 3 more damage with their attacks?) or Leo having 8 Move Heartseeker.

One thing worth noting about Ryoma is that at base stats, he can hop right into Lunatic Birthright 23 and still take on multiple enemies. Ridiculously powerful is almost an understatement.

Very interesting point of view, I have to agree to a big part of what you've post. They're indeed very good support partners (I just prefer Elise's personnal which is incredible combined with her 2 range attacks). But 2 maps is maybe too short. When you think of how many units you have to kill with them to gain only a level, multiplied by the number of level, it quickly become a huge waste. Honestly I'm on chapter 21 and they (Leo and Xander) keep gaining less EXP than other units. That's why I'm wondering if I should keep using them. I didn't play Birthright yet, but I believe you! He looks so powerful!

Edited June 2, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Thor Odinson]

Seth is good not because of grinding--grinding makes anyone good after a while. Seth is broken because he starts with good bases and keeps being good forever.

The exp "loss" is meaningless when you stop seeing enemies as just exp to feed your units but rather targets to wipe out. I don't feed kills to Xander because he needs exp. I give it to him because he's the most efficient person to do it at that location for that turn. Preferably for me to not die really hard. Also Conquest has plenty of exp anyway--Xander hit --/20 by the end of chapter 25. Camilla sometime before that because of her accelerate exp gain lategame.

[Nanima]

I think Camilla has a lower "internal" level, meaning that she gains exp much more quickly than would normally be the case as a prepromote. At least for me she kept gaining a lot of exp from enemies that were far weaker than her.

Generally royals are what you throw out when you just want to trash something, without much difficulty. I was able to use them for most maps while still keeping my other units at an equal level, so don't be too anxious about it.

And for those who have trouble with Leon, I suggest reclassing him into Dark Falcon and keeping him there for the most part. It helps with his speed growth and you just need to wait until he gets Galeforce and he will be your magical flying assassin of doom. Mine had a skill set up of Astra, Bowbreaker, Lifetaker, Duelist Blow and Galeforce (+ his personal), and he was crazy useful.

[GoXDS]

Peri at ...20/10 let's say has an average of

34.6/27.35/1.95/18.6/26.4/19.5/18.65/22.95

if Paladin to Xander's

41.3/26.9/4.3/21/17.7/24.5/26(+4)/12.5

so if you were comparing Xander and Peri at the same lvl, then either your Peri was RNG blessed, Xander was RNG screwed, or both. Xander's lower Str is offset by Seigfried. I won't deny his much lower Res ofc but as the Player, you always try to send the right units to the right places anyways (and Spd was already mentioned)

let's compare to -/10 Camilla as well:

33.6/24.85/14.6/20.4/24.4/14.25/22.05/20.4

as Malig Knight or as the superior Wyvern Lord (reclassed Lvl 1):

35.5/25.85/7.25/23.85/25.85/17.7/24.95/14.05

very comparable stats to Peri but remember, Camilla's internal Lvl is lower so she's actually at least 3 lvls lower than Peri at -/10. and yet, almost as fast, Str with Axe Mt factored is equal to Peri, and higher physical bulk/Skl

the thing with the prepromotes is probably knowing when to use them. you shouldn't be afraid of them leeching all the exp as long as you're not using them as a crutch/excessively. there's still enough exp to get most of your team to cap or near cap by endgame

Edited June 2, 2016 by GoXDS

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

Seth is good not because of grinding--grinding makes anyone good after a while. Seth is broken because he starts with good bases and keeps being good forever.

The exp "loss" is meaningless when you stop seeing enemies as just exp to feed your units but rather targets to wipe out. I don't feed kills to Xander because he needs exp. I give it to him because he's the most efficient person to do it at that location for that turn. Preferably for me to not die really hard. Also Conquest has plenty of exp anyway--Xander hit --/20 by the end of chapter 25. Camilla sometime before that because of her accelerate exp gain lategame.

Of course I don't see ennemies as exp to feed, but targets. It's just if there are several solution, as often happens, I will prefer to feed exp to other units. But of course if I have to kill an annoying ennemy for some reason (armorslayer, seal skills, etc) and there's just one way to do it in one turn, I won't mind if I kill one or two ennemies with royals, but this rarely happens. I mean, there's a difference between that and a normal use.

I think Camilla has a lower "internal" level, meaning that she gains exp much more quickly than would normally be the case as a prepromote. At least for me she kept gaining a lot of exp from enemies that were far weaker than her.

Generally royals are what you throw out when you just want to trash something, without much difficulty. I was able to use them for most maps while still keeping my other units at an equal level, so don't be too anxious about it.

And for those who have trouble with Leon, I suggest reclassing him into Dark Falcon and keeping him there for the most part. It helps with his speed growth and you just need to wait until he gets Galeforce and he will be your magical flying assassin of doom. Mine had a skill set up of Astra, Bowbreaker, Lifetaker, Duelist Blow and Galeforce (+ his personal), and he was crazy useful.

I think you raised an interesting point about difficulty. Maybe unconsciously I don't want to break the game's difficulty. That why I have this feeling of wasting EXP when I use them too much. In fact I just don't want to finish the game with them to the detriment of my other units. When did you start to use them ? About chapters 20-21 ? And when did your units reach level 20 ? Because I usually gain 2 levels per chapter actually! Thank you for your answer, I see you used them like I do.

Peri at ...20/10 let's say has an average of

34.6/27.35/1.95/18.6/26.4/19.5/18.65/22.95

if Paladin to Xander's

41.3/26.9/4.3/21/17.7/24.5/26(+4)/12.5

so if you were comparing Xander and Peri at the same lvl, then either your Peri was RNG blessed, Xander was RNG screwed, or both. Xander's lower Str is offset by Seigfried. I won't deny his much lower Res ofc but as the Player, you always try to send the right units to the right places anyways (and Spd was already mentioned)

let's compare to -/10 Camilla as well:

33.6/24.85/14.6/20.4/24.4/14.25/22.05/20.4

as Malig Knight or as the superior Wyvern Lord (reclassed Lvl 1):

35.5/25.85/7.25/23.85/25.85/17.7/24.95/14.05

very comparable stats to Peri but remember, Camilla's internal Lvl is lower so she's actually at least 3 lvls lower than Peri at -/10. and yet, almost as fast, Str with Axe Mt factored is equal to Peri, and higher physical bulk/Skl

the thing with the prepromotes is probably knowing when to use them. you shouldn't be afraid of them leeching all the exp as long as you're not using them as a crutch/excessively. there's still enough exp to get most of your team to cap or near cap by endgame

My Peri must have been RNG blessed so. As a level 9 great knight, she has 34 Str (cap at 32 as Paladin), 23 skill, 27 speed (so 28-29 as a Paladin, I don't remember), 22 luck, 24 def (21 as a Paladin), 21 Res (I don't know as paladin) and I didn't use any stat booster!

Edited June 2, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Nanima]

I think you raised an interesting point about difficulty. Maybe unconsciously I don't want to break the game's difficulty. That why I have this feeling of wasting EXP when I use them too much. In fact I just don't want to finish the game with them to the detriment of my other units. When did you start to use them ? About chapters 20-21 ? And when did your units reach level 20 ? Because I usually gain 2 levels per chapter actually! Thank you for your answer, I see you used them like I do.

I think you misunderstood me. I used them all the way from their recruitment. Of course, you are not forced to use them if you really want to make the game more challenging for you, but there is really no need to hold back on them (unless you use no one but them of course), the rest of your army will be fine. Even Conquest has enough exp to go around.

[Thor Odinson]

In terms of no-grind, I'd say Conquest actually has more exp. I did all routes with no dlc/invasions/challenges for BR (tbh challenges are pretty bad for grinding in BR Lunatic because the enemies are actually pretty threatening, way harder than the main chapters), and had less paralogues in Conquest than Birthright since I didn't plan Azura's marriage out very well, but by the end of chapter 26 conquest most of my team was lv 18 to 20, while most of my team in birthright was 14-16, Rinkah at 17, and Ryoma at 19. Conquest may have less enemies than Birthright but each individual enemy has higher levels, and it's not like CQ enemy density is particularly sparse either.

I don't remember my Rev levels but I think it's between those.

[Renall]

Even the non-royal prepromotes are remarkably viable, except perhaps for Revelation Gunter just because he doesn't get the Conquest bases bump and has no supports at all; Conquest Gunter however has OK bases and a personal skill that encourages gluing him to Corrin once he's lived out his usefulness.. Shura is a great utility healer right out of the box and is indispensable on Revelation where a lot of healers and lockpickers just do not get the time to develop, allowing him to fill their slots as just one guy and also provide some bow utility and mild debuffing. Reina is a player phase godsend who can get where she needs to be and kill who she needs to kill, and her growths develop decently along offensive lines (her defense is garbage but her role mitigates this a lot). Scarlet is extremely solid and has a great class set. Izana/Yukimura/Fuga are all perfectly usable with zero effort and have good personal skills; Izana's is a little esoteric but Yukimura straight up makes your entire side better for free and Fuga's helps him stay alive when he needs it (which isn't as often as you'd think because his bases are fantastic).

The royals have that sort of utility plus much better growths. Of course they're viable.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

So everybody consider them viable in the long-term. If I still don't agree on some points (I think they would be just a bit behind other units without their weapon, if you consider the unit itself), I have to say it was a very rewarding discussion, and I am (almost) convinced ! Intelligent Systems screwed up a bit on this point, they should have kept the system of Laguz royals from Radiant Dawn (or their children should be able to use their weapon like in Heirs of fate !) !

Many thanks to everybody for taking the time to answer!

Edited June 2, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Dark Holy Elf]

With early-joining prepromoted units, there's actually very little reason not to start using them immediately if you plan to use them at all (the only exception might be out of concern for the Exp rank and this only applies to a very limited number of games, of which Fates is not one).

For instance, we could bench Camilla when she joins and then not start using her until, say, Chapter 16, sure. But how is this in any way in our benefit to do so? Whoever you replace Camilla with for those chapters will be less useful than her in those maps, making those maps more difficult. And you're just going to drop them anyway once you start using Camilla, since they're by definition the worst unit making the cut for your current team. The only way they'd keep on seeing use is if

-you rotate party members a lot. Most players don't do this.
-the number of party slots expands at this point... AND you don't recruit any other, better units to put on the team around this time (e.g. for this specific example: Keaton, Leo, Xander, Shura, child units)

If you're worried about Camilla/Ryoma/Seth/Titania/etc. "stealing" exp, well, just make sure they get about as many kills as any other unit in your army, rather than having them solo half the map*. They'll consume exactly the same resources (i.e. exp) as any other combat unit you might have used in place of them, and will offer a better performance.

*unless having them take out half the map just makes the map that much easier. Hi Nailah and 1-E, etc.