Religion Ranting Topic

[Espinosa]

Well sure, an atheist could be anybody from a neckbeard spending a bulk of his time on the internet, a neo-nazi pagan to a more respectable person of science or Buddhist or anybody in-between, like your regular dood who just couldn't care less with plenty of other things to do or who remains unconvinced by anything logically and/or ontologically. I know atheists who make their views known and almost certainly know some whose views I didn't get or didn't bother to find out, but that's beside the point. If atheists are worried that they are often mistreated or scorned, perhaps they should look into their own community (-ies) for causes of that - is what I'm saying. The "other groups" Bal appears to be referring seem to be well-aware of that insight.

[Res]

But there is no 'atheist community' in the sense that people of a religion generally meet in places of worship and tend to deliberately seek out fellow worshippers.

Atheists not being able to hold public office in a state? That's something even the extreme fringe members of religious groups aren't excluded from.

There is no atheist figurehead preaching to atheists to convert the religious.

[eclipse]

But there is no 'atheist community' in the sense that people of a religion generally meet in places of worship and tend to deliberately seek out fellow worshippers.

Atheists not being able to hold public office in a state? That's something even the extreme fringe members of religious groups aren't excluded from.

There is no atheist figurehead preaching to atheists to convert the religious.

May I ask where you hang out online? Part of the reason why I'm as strict as I am with religious topics here is because I do NOT want SF to turn into some of the nastier places I've been to.

[Tryhard]

The 'online' atheists that continually say that they're atheists tend to be militant in their views and continually talking against religion.

Not that it's any different from any other group - most atheists don't bother with that shit.

[Moblin Major General]

There is no atheist figurehead preaching to atheists to convert the religious.

Because they would fail. There are many cases where secular people turned to a religion, and zealously at that, after actually taking the time to listen to a practitioner, whereas not one faithful person has left their religion purely because they believed an atheist, agnostic, pagan, or other noncommittal of religion.

[eclipse]

The 'online' atheists that continually say that they're atheists tend to be militant in their views and continually talking against religion.

Not that it's any different from any other group - most atheists don't bother with that shit.

Then again, how many of those militant atheists would dare to espouse those same views while face-to-face with another person?

Because they would fail. There are many cases where secular people turned to a religion, and zealously at that, after actually taking the time to listen to a practitioner, whereas not one faithful person has left their religion purely because they believed an atheist, agnostic, pagan, or other noncommittal of religion.

Source? I have a hard time believing this.

Edited September 17, 2016 by eggclipse

[Tryhard]

Then again, how many of those militant atheists would dare to espouse those same views while face-to-face with another person?

I have heard cases of a person comforting another at a funeral, child or relative, while saying that it is okay because they are with God, for another to step in and try to refute that. Those people are just assholes, but it's not like anything out of the ordinary and I'm sure that the opposite is true for athiests that have died.

Otherwise, it's unlikely that they're going to be as loud in real life just like anyone else.

[Res]

Because they would fail. There are many cases where secular people turned to a religion, and zealously at that, after actually taking the time to listen to a practitioner, whereas not one faithful person has left their religion purely because they believed an atheist, agnostic, pagan, or other noncommittal of religion.

May I ask where you hang out online? Part of the reason why I'm as strict as I am with religious topics here is because I do NOT want SF to turn into some of the nastier places I've been to.

Almost solely Facebook communities these days; 90% of those are parenting groups.

I'm definitely not here to criticize anyone's belief or make assumptions of a large group of people. 'Plenty to dislike about atheists' is disheartening to hear when you're talking about millions of people, though.

The 'online' atheists that continually say that they're atheists tend to be militant in their views and continually talking against religion.

Not that it's any different from any other group - most atheists don't bother with that shit.

Right. And of course unless someone explicitly states their belief, you're not going to know about it, anyway.

Though the flip side of that is, depending on where you live you may be assumed to be of a particular religion, so any kind of statement otherwise immediately 'outs' you. This applies to other things, too. For example, hanging out on a large forum in the early 00s, you were assumed to be male (and indeed, 90% of the forumers did appear to be men). So you either spoke up as a woman, in which case everyone would point to you and use you as an example of 'sheesh, why do women always have to identify themselves?!' or you would have to put up with being addressed as 'he, him'.

Edit: Hylian Air Force, how do you account from people who have left religion, then? I certainly left after hearing arguments from agnostics and atheists; I never had a tragic event cause me to leave my belief.

Tryhard, yes, everyone's braver online. I'll almost certainly never tell my mother of my lack of belief (amongst other things! We're pretty close in most other aspects, though. And we all took her to Vatican City for her birthday).

Edited September 17, 2016 by Res

[eclipse]

I have heard cases of a person comforting another at a funeral, child or relative, while saying that it is okay because they are with God, for another to step in and try to refute that. Those people are just assholes, but it's not like anything out of the ordinary and I'm sure that the opposite is true for athiests that have died.

Otherwise, it's unlikely that they're going to be as loud in real life just like anyone else.

Assholes are assholes, regardless of religious leaning.

Still, I can't see anyone being as loud IRL as they are online. How many of those militant atheists would use "magical sky fairy" in a conversation with a RL religious person?

Almost solely Facebook communities these days; 90% of those are parenting groups.

I'm definitely not here to criticize anyone's belief or make assumptions of a large group of people. 'Plenty to dislike about atheists' is disheartening to hear when you're talking about millions of people, though.

The atheist fringe group is really hateful. Yes, it sucks for the atheists who know how to be respectful. However, I think it would serve you well to go out and find those groups that I mentioned, because it'll help you to understand why Espinosa said that. If you want some direction, PM me.

[Moblin Major General]

Source? I have a hard time believing this.

That secular people turn to God in droves? Or that it's not that easy to get them to turn? We believe in the same God, so how could he not all of a sudden change someone's heart when he commissions one of his own to go out of their way to talk to the secular?

[eclipse]

That secular people turn to God in droves? Or that it's not that easy to get them to turn? We believe in the same God, so how could he not all of a sudden change someone's heart when he commissions one of his own to go out of their way to talk to the secular?

That's not how people work.

Religion isn't exactly black and white - some who are Christian don't go to church every Sunday (me), and those who don't associate with a religion or other may respectfully bow their heads during a prayer. People will leave their religion for a variety of reasons, while others will join for just as many reasons. God's great, but He's given us free will, which means people are free to come and go as they please.

[Res]

I mean, I've heard some of what militant atheists say, so I understand Espinosa's comment, yet I feel like it would be saying there's plenty to dislike about Christians because of Pat Robertson and the Westboro Baptist Church, or plenty to dislike about Muslims because of IS (both of which would be abhorrent things to say).

[Moblin Major General]

That's not how people work.Religion isn't exactly black and white - some who are Christian don't go to church every Sunday (me), and those who don't associate with a religion or other may respectfully bow their heads during a prayer. People will leave their religion for a variety of reasons, while others will join for just as many reasons. God's great, but He's given us free will, which means people are free to come and go as they please.

Maybe so, but I believe Christian people are lying to themselves when they leave the faith, and will still find their sins forgiven. Maybe not so with other religions, but true in the case of Christianity, especially concerning agnostics.

[eclipse]

I mean, I've heard some of what militant atheists say, so I understand Espinosa's comment, yet I feel like it would be saying there's plenty to dislike about Christians because of Pat Robertson and the Westboro Baptist Church, or plenty to dislike about Muslims because of IS (both of which would be abhorrent things to say).

Difference is that there's a name and face for the fringe religious groups, and you've just named them. The militant atheists, for the most part, are a bunch of not-famous people. Normally, I don't care for labels, because they tend to be horribly misused, especially by the intellectually lazy. However, I wouldn't mind having one just for that small group of vocal atheists who don't know the basics of human decency.

Maybe so, but I believe Christian people are lying to themselves when they leave the faith, and will still find their sins forgiven. Maybe not so with other religions, but true in the case of Christianity, especially concerning agnostics.

You've got a Christian bias. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just there, and it's important to remember that it'll color how you view things. Many of the stories that I've read about people turning away from Christianity have to do with other people making it unbearable (parents forcing their kids to go to church, people taking the rules of religion too far, etc.).

Edited September 17, 2016 by eggclipse

[Life]

You've got a Christian bias. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just there, and it's important to remember that it'll color how you view things. Many of the stories that I've read about people turning away from Christianity have to do with other people making it unbearable (parents forcing their kids to go to church, people taking the rules of religion too far, etc.).

That's not just a Christian thing though.

Take me as an example. I used to be a rather religious Jew and now I'm not. Reasons vary but I know a lot of people who moved away because of the pressure. And don't forget that orthodox Judaism is far more restrictive than Christianity.

[Rezzy]

I have plenty of friends who are agnostic or atheist, but I've dealt with plenty who give them a bad name. This is particularly bad in the LGBT community. I got plenty of people who were saying, "Oh, you can't be lesbian and a Christian." And they seemed to want to make me feel stupid or make it their goal to make me renounce my faith or something. It's similar to my not being too found of the LGBT community. They have an unfortunate tendency to make it that you aren't lockstep with them on everything belief-wise, they treat you like a heretic, ironically.

@Res: Yeah, I didn't even "come out" as a woman on internet forums until recently. People always called me "he" on forums in the early 2000's, and I just never bothered correcting that notion.

[Espinosa]

The last couple pages of this discussion are very odd. First it's said that atheists never form a community (these folks do like to constantly insist, even in discussions where it's not relevant, that atheism is not a religion, but that likeminded atheists lack the capacity to form communities?) and then it's argued that Christians or other believers have never discarded their religion? I'm really not sure how to react to these "counterarguments" to what I'd previously posted (which was nothing daring really).

[Rezzy]

The last couple pages of this discussion are very odd. First it's said that atheists never form a community (these folks do like to constantly insist, even in discussions where it's not relevant, that atheism is not a religion, but that likeminded atheists lack the capacity to form communities?) and then it's argued that Christians or other believers have never discarded their religion? I'm really not sure how to react to these "counterarguments" to what I'd previously posted (which was nothing daring really).

I'm not sure what you mean; I was only speaking from experience. And generally speaking, pretty much every like-minded group of people will form a "community", for lack of a better word, even if it's nothing official.

[Res]

Rezzy, yeah, I tend not to associate with any particular communities. Overall I've had largely positive interactions with most social groups, so I prefer to keep it that way. ;) I never fill out the 'about me' sections on any profile pages (Facebook, etc.). On the other hand, though, I do find it a little irritating to be assumed to be a part of the majority. I've also seen a significant number of groups implode from assumptions being made.

[Phoenix Wright]

That's not just a Christian thing though.

Take me as an example. I used to be a rather religious Jew and now I'm not. Reasons vary but I know a lot of people who moved away because of the pressure. And don't forget that orthodox Judaism is far more restrictive than Christianity.

depends on the flavor of christianity

[Life]

depends on the flavor of christianity

But it isn't inherent to Christianity. That was the argument I was making. Edited September 18, 2016 by Deplorable Pepe

[Phoenix Wright]

taken literally it is absolutely inherent to christianity. the difference is in the followers, not the religion itself.

[eclipse]

taken literally it is absolutely inherent to christianity. the difference is in the followers, not the religion itself.

Aaand I'm lost. Like, I can sort-of follow the trail of logic until this post, but are you arguing because Life pointed out that people leaving a religion isn't only Christianity?

[Phoenix Wright]

im talking about strictness

[Moblin Major General]

im talking about strictness

What? Jewish tradition is as severe as they come, even far behind Muslims and Puritans. Adultery was a capital offense, thieves lost hands, and delinquency in children often meant stoning to death. Granted, they are not empowered to legalize such punishments, but the prerequisite for them is there. Where do you see Christian Laws advocating such practices? Remember that Christianity was progressive and still is compared to the other 4 major world religions.