Nationality and Reclassing

[NekoKnight]

One thing I've enjoyed in several Fire Emblem games is the character of the nation shown in what classes they use. Sacae and Etruria in Elibe are notable for their nomads/swordmasters and magic users, respectively. Fates took this to a whole new level with completely different classes depending on the faction (granted, there were only two major factions). So it got me thinking, what if characters (enemy generics included) had a "nationality" attribute that determined their class-sets, rather than each character having unique class-sets?

Let's say that each faction in the game would have access to 1 unpromoted class of each weapon type: sword, axe, lance, magic, bow, dagger and staff. Any character of that nationality would be able to change to any class in that set. Perhaps some would dislike this because it would make the reclassing options identical for characters sharing a faction, but you could still get additional 'foreign' classes through Friendship/Marriage Seals.

I think this could be viable for gameplay as well as be used for subtle storytelling/world-building. Imagine you are fighting a nation that employs a lot of knights and wyvern riders, but some of enemies include mercenaries and pegasus riders which informs you that Nation A is allied with/hired mercenaries from Nation B, without a single line of dialogue needed.

What do you think?

[Rezzy]

I like it in principle, but also feel it would lead to a lot of superfluous classes just to fill a quota of classes for each nation.

It may be unpopular, but I hated half the classes they added just to fill out the ranks in Hoshido.

[NekoKnight]

I like it in principle, but also feel it would lead to a lot of superfluous classes just to fill a quota of classes for each nation.

It may be unpopular, but I hated half the classes they added just to fill out the ranks in Hoshido.

Class sets wouldn't have to be completely unique. For example, you might have two nations that use Mercenary as their sword guy, but their other classes would be different. I wouldn't advocate new classes unless they brought something interesting to the table. Besides, I wouldn't say the new Hoshidan classes were "superfluous". Even for classes that shared weapon types (say Hero and Blacksmith) had different skills and weapon rank caps.

Even if two classes were similar, just the visual differences would give each faction more flavor.

[MCProductions]

I'm up for it. Hell, I've long thought Nobles should have separate class sets from commoners. Like, Lord/Lodestar is the noble class set equivalent to Myrmidon/Swordmaster. Don't know, I'm weird like that.

[Light Strategist]

Honestly, I like it. It actually feels like they kinda tested the waters with the Awakening trio in Fates for that. I know the classes they have are divided between Hoshido and Nohr but at the end of the day, Ylisse only lacks Ninja, which shares a strong similarity to Assassin.

Assuming that Avatars are usable again, it'd be nice to have the: 'Choose your birth class' thing from New Mystery again, but this time affecting how the character design and some dialogue is executed.

I honestly want to play this idea so much right now! o.o

Edited September 17, 2016 by Light Strategist

[LuxSpes]

I like the idea, but I think that class set should still be limited. Not only to make same-faction units more unique but for a little added realism since every soldier being able to use 7 different types of weapons seems a little overboard. 1 main class with 1-2 class change options seems good to me. You could even have units that are tied to 2 factions have 1 class from one and a second from the other. I definitely agree that it would a potentially great tool for subtle world building.

[NekoKnight]

I like the idea, but I think that class set should still be limited. Not only to make same-faction units more unique but for a little added realism since every soldier being able to use 7 different types of weapons seems a little overboard. 1 main class with 1-2 class change options seems good to me. You could even have units that are tied to 2 factions have 1 class from one and a second from the other. I definitely agree that it would a potentially great tool for subtle world building.

Maybe the 7 class thing would be a perk of the Avatar.

I was thinking of a flaw in the system in that characters sharing a faction wouldn't have any any classes to give each other, but you could 'solve' that by limiting their classes further, like you suggested. Alternatively, for characters who don't offer any new classes, maybe instead you would get a permanent stat boost for a A+/S support rank.

I don't want eugenics back, but if someone was canonically the child of parents from two nations, I could see them having a mix of class options. Still, I'd prefer characters generally be a part of one faction, otherwise the idea of classes linked to factions will become hollow.

Edited September 17, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Light Strategist]

I don't want eugenics back, but if someone was canonically the child of parents from two nations, I could see them having a mix of class options. Still, I'd prefer characters generally be a part of one faction, otherwise the idea of classes linked to factions will become hollow.

What about if the characters with that little perk were few and far between?

In Fates, they balanced the Hoshidan and Nohrian units between Birthright and Conquest, so you could have a few units in each version that gets classes from the other. Why not make them that level of restricted? Say a total of 5 units with that feature from across 5 different points of the game. It provides the bonuses, AND keeps the feature restricted to help capitalize on units that don't have that perk.

I dunno, just an idea.

[BlueLore]

Overall I think this would be a really neat idea,though not every nation would get unique classes,because that would easily become overkill.

Fates did a good job for the most part in my opinion,though there were still some weird inequalities(hoshido having no horse-units,Nohr not having a starting class with hidden weapons and hoshido having the apothecary,a second bow-using class,even though that class was barely used at all).

Though what I wonder:
What about knights?In fates the counterpart to the knights were the lancers,but I'd argue that Lancer and Soldier could make good counterparts,wheras knights could get another armored class as their counterpart.

Also since I'm not very fond of the oni-class I feel like barbarians should return,with fighters becoming more tanky to differentiate them from the barbarians a bit more.

[Topaz Light]

It's kind of a neat notion, but I would have to say that I think having the reclass options be personalized to each character is ultimately the better way to do it.

Fire Emblem has definitely had redundant classes for the sake of flavor before (take Jugdral's three standard bow infantry classes, for example), but setting things up this way practically invites that, unless you're keeping the number of factions very small in order to retain diversity between each set of "equivalent" classes.

Personally, I'm kinda not 100% on even doing what Fates did and slicing the class roster in half between two factions. I could get behind different classes having different outfits or sprites or whatever depending on what nation they're from, but by and large, I think the creation of new classes should be saved for when there's actually gonna be something different/unique about the new class compared to similar classes. Promoting in a wildly different direction (i.e. the Apothecary class line vs. the Archer class line) does count, but things like, again, FE4 having Archers and Hunters and Bow Fighters all in the same game (and making only one of those three recruitable) are just getting a little ridiculous and excessive.

Besides, there are some classes that are generic or culturally-neutral enough that not making them nation-neutral classes is what doesn't make sense. For example, every nation probably has Thieves living in it, and you could also probably find swordfighting Mercenaries from just about every nation that uses swords (and it's almost certainly the case that most of them do). I know that the Thief and Mercenary class lines aren't always used by literal Thieves and Mercenaries, but I think that they still work to illustrate the concept.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Topaz Light

[NekoKnight]

Personally, I'm kinda not 100% on even doing what Fates did and slicing the class roster in half between two factions. I could get behind different classes having different outfits or sprites or whatever depending on what nation they're from, but by and large, I think the creation of new classes should be saved for when there's actually gonna be something different/unique about the new class compared to similar classes. Promoting in a wildly different direction (i.e. the Apothecary class line vs. the Archer class line) does count, but things like, again, FE4 having Archers and Hunters and Bow Fighters all in the same game (and making only one of those three recruitable) are just getting a little ridiculous and excessive.

Even for characters that share a weapon type, there are ways to separate them. Would you say that Archers and Outlaws are redundant because they both use a bow? Knights and Spear Fighters? Besides growths and bases, there are also class skills to further differentiate them. Personally, I'm imagining about 4 factions that would be completely unique plus a number of other factions that use some combination of the other classes.

Besides, there are some classes that are generic or culturally-neutral enough that not making them nation-neutral classes is what doesn't make sense. For example, every nation probably has Thieves living in it, and you could also probably find swordfighting Mercenaries from just about every nation that uses swords (and it's almost certainly the case that most of them do). I know that the Thief and Mercenary class lines aren't always used by literal Thieves and Mercenaries, but I think that they still work to illustrate the concept.

You're thinking about class names too literally. Farina in Blazing Sword is literally a mercenary because you pay for her services, but she's a Pegasus Knight. Niles is an Outlaw even though he's a royal retainer. That said, I could imagine "Independent" as a 'faction' if you wanted to portray soldiers who don't belong to the regular army, such as thieves and mercenaries.

[Locke087]

3 Faction Class Prototype (because for a game all about triangles 4 is one faction too many anyways I will elaborate on what each new class is more later)

S: Sword

A: Axe

L: Lance

B: Bow

K: Knifes

R: Rod

AM: Anima Magic

LM: Light Magic

DM: Dark Magic

Western:

1. Cavalier (L) / Paladin (L/A)

2. Knight (L) / General (L/S)

3. Mercenary (S) / Hero (S/A)

4. Mage (AM) / Sage (AM/K)

5. Troubadour ® / Valkyrie (R/AM)

6. Wyvern Rider (A) / Wyvern Lord (A/L)

7. Outlaw (B) / Adventurer (B/R) (can capture)

8. Fighter (A) / Warrior (A/B)

9. Manakete (Breath)

10. Bard (medium move, can give a 3 or 5 turn buffs or another turn)

Nomadic:

1. Myrmidons (S) / Swordmaster (S)

2. Nomad (B) / Nomad Trooper (B/S)

3. Brigand (A) / Berserker (A)

4. Shaman ® / Druid (R/DM)

5. Pegasus Knight (S) / Falcon Knight (S/L)

6. Spirit Charmer (DM) / Necromancer (DM)

7. Thief (K) / Rouge (K) (can steal)

8. Hunter (L) / Trapper (L/B) (lighter spear fighter)

9. Bear (Claw) (tank)

10. Dancer (High Movement, can give two people a new turn)

Eastern:

1. Spear Fighter (L) / Spear Master (L)

2. Kinshi Rider (B) / Kinshi Knight (B/L)

3. Archer (B) / Sniper (B)

4. Oni Savage (A)/ Oni Cheiftan (A/LM)

5. Assassin (S) / Ninja (S/K)

6. Monk (LM) / Priest (LM/R)

7. Servant ® / Maid/Butler (R/K)

8. Samurai (now more bulky cav with a sword) / Master Samurai (S/L)

9. Kitsune (Bite)

10. Singer (Low move, Give turn and Buffs for the next attack)

Edited September 27, 2016 by Locke087

[Topaz Light]

Even for characters that share a weapon type, there are ways to separate them. Would you say that Archers and Outlaws are redundant because they both use a bow? Knights and Spear Fighters? Besides growths and bases, there are also class skills to further differentiate them. Personally, I'm imagining about 4 factions that would be completely unique plus a number of other factions that use some combination of the other classes.

You're thinking about class names too literally. Farina in Blazing Sword is literally a mercenary because you pay for her services, but she's a Pegasus Knight. Niles is an Outlaw even though he's a royal retainer. That said, I could imagine "Independent" as a 'faction' if you wanted to portray soldiers who don't belong to the regular army, such as thieves and mercenaries.

Archers and Outlaws aren't redundant, but Bow Fighters and Genealogy!Hunters are. Knights and Spear Fighters aren't redundant, but Soldiers and Spear Fighters would be, so Spear Fighters and Lancers KINDA are.

You do have a point about me taking class names too literally, and I apologize for that. My main concern is that if you're constructing the class list "by template" in sets, or in order to meet some arbitrarily-defined quota, then that increases the risk of redundant classes being created. It doesn't guarantee it or anything like that; I just feel like classes should be made because, say, the developers actually had a good idea for an additional Axe-using class, not because they needed to meet a quota of X Axe-using classes in the game or something.

It does occur to me, though, that your idea provides an excellent reason for the different [weapon] Knights, Armored [weapon]s, or even Jugdral's unused [weapon] Soldiers to be used again, which is pretty cool.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Topaz Light

[NekoKnight]

3 Faction Class Prototype (because for a game all about triangles 4 is one faction too many anyways I will elaborate on what each new class is more later)

S: Sword

A: Axe

L: Lance

B: Bow

K: Knifes

R: Rod

AM: Anima Magic

LM: Light Magic

DM: Dark Magic

But there are 7 factions in your favorite game.

Anyway, this is what I'd do. I took the classes from my list which wasn't designed with factions in mind so some might not be perfect thematically.

These are my basic classes:

Sword: Mercenary, Samurai, Fencer, Dancer

Axe: Fighter, Raider, Oni Savage, Griffon Rider

Lance: Lancer, Knight, Cavalier, Squire

Tome: Mage, Light Mage, Dark Mage, Pupil

Bow: Archer, Nomad

Knife: Thief, Ninja

Rod: Priest, Troubadour

Misc: Wyvern Rider, Pegasus Knight, Manakete, Spirit Fox, Wolfskin

Western 1

1. Mercenary (S) / Hero (S/A) / Weapon Master (S/A/L)

2. Fighter (A) / Warrior (A/S/L) / Sky Hunter (A/B)

3. Knight (L) / General (L/A) / Great Knight (L/A/S)

4. Mage (AM) / Sage (AM/R) / Mage Knight (AM/S)

5. Archer (B) / Sniper (B) / Cataphract (B/L)

6. Thief (K) / Adventurer (K/R) / Assassin (K/B)

7. Priest(ess) ® / Servant (R/K) / Pilgrim (R/A)

8. Wyvern Rider (A) / Wyvern Lord (A/L) / Malig Knight (A/DM)

Western 2

1. Fencer (S) / Spell Blade (S/AM) / Blade Dancer (S/K)

2. Griffon Rider (A) / Sky Hunter (A/B) / Griffon Knight (A/S)

3. Squire (L) / Sentinel (L/B) / Templar (L/S)

4. Pupil (AM) / Mage Knight (AM/S) / Scholar (AM/DM)

5. Archer (B) / Sniper (B) / Cataphract (B/L)

6. Thief (K) / Adventurer (K/R) / Assassin (K/B)

7. Troubadour ® / Pilgrim (R/A) / Holy Knight (R/LM)

8. Pegasus Knight (L) / Falco Knight (L/R) / Seraph Knight (L/LM)

Nomadic

1. Dancer (S) / Blade Dancer (S/K) / Water Dancer (S/R)

2. Raider (A) / Reaver (A/K) / Berserker (A)

3. Cavalier (L) / Paladin (L/S) / Great Knight (L/A/S)

4. Dark Mage (DM) / Necromancer (DM/R) / Malig Knight (DM/A)

5. Nomad (B) / Yabusame (B/S) / Cataphract (B/L)

6. Thief (K) / Adventurer (K/R) / Assassin (K/B)

7. Troubadour ® / Pilgrim (R/A) / Holy Knight (R/LM)

8. Wolfskin (Beast Stone) / Managarmr (Beast Stone)

Eastern

1. Samurai (S) / Swordmaster (S) / Weapon Master (S/A/L)

2. Oni Savage (A) / Oni Chieftain (A/AM) / Witch Doctor (A/R)

3. Spear Fighter (L) / Spear Master (L) / Basara (L/AM)

4. Light Mage (LM) / Bishop (LM/R) / Seraph Knight (LM/L)

5. Nomad (B) / Yabusame (B/S) / Kinshi Knight (B/L)

6. Ninja (K) / Assassin (K/B) / Dread Fighter (K/S/A)

7. Priest(ess) ® / War Priest(ess) (R/B) / Servant (R/K)

8. Spirit Fox (Beast Stone) / Kitsune (Beast Stone)

Archers and Outlaws aren't redundant, but Bow Fighters and Genealogy!Hunters are. Knights and Spear Fighters aren't redundant, but Soldiers and Spear Fighters would be, so Spear Fighters and Lancers KINDA are.

I agree that some classes felt redundant (like Archer/Hunter in Shadow Dragon) but that was because they either lacked class skills or were too similar stat-wise. Fates has shown, however, that you can make distinct classes that share weapon types.

[Locke087]

But there are 7 factions in your favorite game.

There is but usually it boils down this nation has a ton of blah, Ostia has lots of Knight, Ilia has lots of Pegasus Knights, Etruria has a lot of Mages, Bern has Wyverns ect.

Here is the logic of my list is mostly based on utility

Horseback units: Cavalier, Nomad, Samurai

Flyers: Wyvern, Peggy, Kinshi

Thiefs: Thief , Outlaw , Ninja

Beasts: Mankete, Bear, Kitsune

Healers: Servant, Troubadour, Shaman

Dancers: Bard, Dancer, Singer

Magic Users: Mage, Monk, Spirit Charmer

Axe Users: Pirate, Brigand, Oni Savage

then the rest are two sets of unique foot solders

Foot Soldiers: Knight & Mercenary, Myrmidon & Hunter, Archer & Spear Fighter

(why have 3 unique types of dancers? because I can, and because enemy dancers would be just hilarious)

So I borrowed a couple classes from you... but now I have branching classes in mine and no cross pollination! The no cross pollination part is the reason it was so hard to have 4 complete factions, 40 unique classes is madness! Anyways I will think about how I might do four...

note Mankete, Bear, Kitsune, Bard, Dancer and Singer are level 40 classes

[spoiler=My list now with branching classes]

Western:

1. Cavalier (L) / Paladin (L/A) / Great Knight (L/S/A)

2. Knight (L) / General (L/S) / Great Knight (L/S/A)

3. Mercenary (S) / Hero (S/A) / Spellsword (S/AM)

4. Mage (AM) / Sage (AM/K) / Scholar (AM/LM/R)

5. Troubadour ® / Valkyrie (R/AM) / Rod Knight (R/S)

6. Wyvern Rider (A) / Wyvern Lord (A/L) / Malig Knight (A/AM)

7. Outlaw (B) / Adventurer (B/R) (can capture) / Outcast (B/S) (can capture)

8. Pirate (A) / Warrior (A/B) / Captain (A/L)

9. Manakete (Breath)

10. Bard (medium move, can give a 3 or 5 turn buffs or another turn)

Nomadic:

1. Myrmidons (S) / Swordmaster (S) / Master of Arms (S/A/L)

2. Nomad (B) / Nomad Trooper (B/S) / Nomad Sniper (B)

3. Brigand (A) / Berserker (A) / Raider (L/A)

4. Shaman ® / Druid (R/DM) / Necromancer (DM/R)

5. Pegasus Knight (S) / Falcon Knight (S/L) / Dark Flyer (S/DM) (no galeforce)

6. Spirit Charmer (DM) (renamed Summoner) / Necromancer (DM/R) / Dark Flyer (S/DM) (no galeforce)

7. Thief (K) / Rouge (K) (can steal) / Spy (K/R) (can capture)

8. Hunter (L) / Trapper (L/B) (lighter spear fighter) / Raider (L/A)

9. Bear (Claw) (tank)

10. Dancer (High Movement, can give two people a new turn)

Eastern:

1. Spear Fighter (L) / Spear Master (L) / Basara (L/AM)

2. Kinshi Rider (L) / Kinshi Knight (L/B) / Seraph Knight (L/LM)

3. Archer (B) / Sniper (B) / Kinshi Knight (L/B)

4. Oni Savage (A) / Oni Cheiftan (A/LM) / Witch Doctor (A/R)

5. Ninja (S) / Assassin (S/B) / Dread Fighter (K/S/A)

6. Monk (LM) / Priest(ess) (LM/R) / Seraph Knight (L/LM)

7. Servant ® / Maid/Butler (R/K) / Priest(ess) (LM/R)

8. Samurai (now more bulky cav with a sword) / Samurai Warrior (S/L) / Master Samurai (S/L/B)

9. Kitsune (Bite)

10. Singer (Low move, Give turn and Buffs for the next attack)

Edited September 28, 2016 by Locke087

[NekoKnight]

There is but usually it boils down this nation has a ton of blah, Ostia has lots of Knight, Ilia has lots of Pegasus Knights, Etruria has a lot of Mages, Bern has Wyverns ect.

Here is the logic of my list is mostly based on utility

Horseback units: Cavalier, Nomad, Samurai

Flyers: Wyvern, Peggy, Kinshi

Thiefs: Thief , Outlaw , Ninja

Beasts: Mankete, Bear, Kitsune

Healers: Servant, Troubadour, Shaman

Dancers: Bard, Dancer, Singer

Magic Users: Mage, Monk, Spirit Charmer

Axe Users: Pirate, Brigand, Oni Savage

then the rest are two sets of unique foot solders

Foot Soldiers: Knight & Mercenary, Myrmidon & Hunter, Archer & Spear Fighter

(why have 3 unique types of dancers? because I can, and because enemy dancers would be just hilarious)

So I borrowed a couple classes from you... but now I have branching classes in mine and no cross pollination! The no cross pollination part is the reason it was so hard to have 4 complete factions, 40 unique classes is madness! Anyways I will think about how I might do four...

The way I conceived my class list was with pairs of two base classes that shared one promotion path. Sometimes this can be inconvenient because the shared promotion might not fit two different factions aesthetically.

In regards to multiple dancers, one idea I thought of was having dancers automatically refresh the lead unit in a pair up after they acted. Maybe there could be a whole level where all of the enemies are paired with dancers. Scary.