Meg Topic

[Wisper]

Astrid won't be awesome the rest of the game. It will be annoying to get her close enough to combat for her to die, then you have to baby her all way up to 3rd tier so she isn't massively underleveled the rest of the game, and even then, her growths are mediocre, and you get two better bow users (Rolf and Shinon) with better growths, avalibility, base stats and stat caps.

I really don't understand why everyone says Meg and Astrid are good endgame. They really aren't.

[BrightBow]

Well I don't really think they are great at endgame. However they have their good points. I know they can't really make up for their enormus disadvantages like meg beeing stuck in an army whichs leader might be the only Fire Emblem Lord who has a late promotion-time and has actually problems to hit max level before that, which shows just how short the straw is, the dawn brigade got in terms of level and exp. And the more experienced Greil Mercenaries got Gatrie who has an high speed growth (60%) while having an equal high defense growth. However its also wrong saying that they are just aweful just because of that. Meg has high speed, luck and resistance growths which is far from beeing useless.

By the way. Does anybody know if it is possible to recruit Meg in 3-7 ?

Edited October 24, 2008 by BrightBow-User

[sandmanccl]

That one extra potential speed cap for Astrid makes her better than the Marksman, in a sense. She can double-attack the wisps in the last two chapters while none of the archers can. Actually, the only other one that has the potential to is Leonardo if he got speed blessed and is using his unique bow.

Also, Meg is great. She's really easy to stat-rig because her luck, speed and HP cap so early. She's got the best strength cap for any sword user other than Ike so while she isn't going to be double-attacking anything, she'll be hitting harder per hit. And her max defense is pretty freakin' great, especially in the Dragon Chapter if you have her roll around with the Alondite.

Edited October 24, 2008 by sandmanccl

[sandmanccl]

I really don't understand why everyone says Meg and Astrid are good endgame. They really aren't.

It's not. I've even dropped Brom off next to her with the express intent of seeing what the conversation between them is. It's kind of retarded. Brom is all "OH MY GOD I LOVE MY LITTLE GIRL, GET AWAY FROM DADDY BECAUSE I WON'T FITE U" and Meg is all "*moo.*"

[Reikken]

That one extra potential speed cap for Astrid makes her better than the Marksman, in a sense. She can double-attack the wisps in the last two chapters while none of the archers can.

Yes, they can. They have 30 spd, not 31.

[sandmanccl]

Rolf's never double-attacked them the multiple times I've taken him end-game, even with max speed.

I guess he could have been a point or two away from max and I just forgot. Same thing can happen to Astrid, though, so myeh.

Honestly, all the bow users are just about equal. They all bring something neat and unique to the table and for the most part have pretty equivalent stats.

[BrightBow]

However Astrid won't hit her speed cap and her allrounder growths prevent her from capping anything else for a long time so BEXPing is difficult. However she is one of the few beorc units who can equip both elite and blossom. Also she has Elite in Path of Radiance as well, which makes her an easy choice for state-transfers.

As for Meg, she has problems hitting both her strength and defense cap so it dosn't help her all that much, that she can have the highest possible defense of the beorc-units and neither will she hit harder then the other sword users.

[Reikken]

Honestly, all the bow users are just about equal. They all bring something neat and unique to the table and for the most part have pretty equivalent stats.

They're not at all or even anywhere close. Astrid's average max level spd is 32. Have fun getting her to cap that.

Leo's max level average is 32. Maybe 33 with bexp stuff.

Shinon not only caps on average, but he also hits his max spd about halfway through 3rd tier.

Getting the party to max level isn't feasible on hard mode, so this is an especially huge issue there.

And Shinon is beastly the rest of the game, while the other two, especially Astrid, are weak.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

Her average max speed is 32? A whole whopping 3 points away from cap, in a game where you can force at least 3 stats per level up?

You'll cap speed unless you're horribly unlucky.

Leo's average max level is wait why do I give a damn what you say it is? I can get every one of my 10 guys I bring to end-game to 20/20/20, except maybe on Hard Mode and even then it's pretty damn close. Considering you can only bring ten and you only need one or two good units to totally destroy any given map, I highly recommend power leveling just the guys you plan on taking to the end of the game. If you have a guy who's massively under-leveled, well, should have used him more.

Shinon is vastly overrated. He's got the most useless support type for his class. (Oh wow, +defense and avoid, those totally help a class that shouldn't be getting attacked in the first place. At least Leo's gives +attack and Astrid/Rolf's gives +accuracy. It's a shame there's no fire affinity archers.) The only thing he's got on the other archers is a level lead because all of them end up very, very, very equivalent.

edit:

Also, comparing Shinon to Astrid or Leo "the rest of the game" is pretty stupid. None of them can possibly share playtime until Part 4. Granted, Shinon might have a lead on them at the time, but Astrid is useful for the Royal Knights maps and Leo is useful for the Dawn Brigade maps. If Shinon was usable in maps where he made more of an impact, I'd probably care about him more.

Edited October 24, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Reikken]

Her average max speed is 32? A whole whopping 3 points away from cap, in a game where you can force at least 3 stats per level up?

You'll cap speed unless you're horribly unlucky.

No. She doesn't cap enough stats for bexp to help her on average until she has only 7 levels left. So her average only gets boosted by about 1-2 spd, even if every level from then on is gotten with bexp.

A normal levelup for her is 3.5 stats, so bexp hurts her before then. Additionally, bexp favors the higher growths disproportionally, so she gets even less in her lower growths. Like maybe 20% instead of 40%.

Also, hard mode effectively has only 25% as much bexp to work with, so again it's an even bigger issue there.

Leo's average max level is wait why do I give a damn what you say it is? I can get every one of my 10 guys I bring to end-game to 20/20/20, except maybe on Hard Mode and even then it's pretty damn close.

I was talking about his spd at max level, not his level.

(Oh wow, +defense and avoid, those totally help a class that shouldn't be getting attacked in the first place.

Crossbows and Double Bow say hi.

And he's not the only one getting those bonuses. His supporter gets them, too.

Shinon's chance of having capped spd by max level is like 99+%, while it's more like 40% for the other two. And then on hard mode, you have to deal with not being at max level, so it gets even worse for them. Leo can at least use his prf bow, though at the cost of nerfed atk and no more 1 range, so he's not quite as bad off as Astrid is.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Reikken

[BrightBow]

Thunder is far from useless on shinon because he can survive direct attacks easily and with the double blow he can't counter so there is not even a reason to keep him from the frontlines driving the use of his affinities to a whole new level. Also others want to get his support as well.

Edit: Oh, everything I said was said already. Well then I add that crowsbows and shinon are an awesome combination to disarm enemys so there is even more close-combat for the ponytail.

Edited October 24, 2008 by BrightBow-User

[sandmanccl]

No. She doesn't cap enough stats for bexp to help her on average until she has only 7 levels left. So her average only gets boosted by about 1-2 spd, even if every level from then on is gotten with bexp.

A normal levelup for her is 3.5 stats, so bexp hurts her before then. Additionally, bexp favors the higher growths disproportionally, so she gets even less in her lower growths. Like maybe 20% instead of 40%.

Also, hard mode effectively has only 25% as much bexp to work with, so again it's an even bigger issue there.

I was talking about his spd at max level, not his level.

Crossbows and Double Bow say hi.

And he's not the only one getting those bonuses. His supporter gets them, too.

Shinon's chance of having capped spd by max level is like 99+%, while it's more like 40% for the other two. And then on hard mode, you have to deal with not being at max level, so it gets even worse for them. Leo can at least use his prf bow, though at the cost of nerfed atk and no more 1 range, so he's not quite as bad off as Astrid is.

The Lugnasahd doesn't get +1 attack range from being a bow used by a Marksman? You certain about that? I won't believe that until I see it for my own eyes. Which will be pretty much as soon as I pick up the DB again my current playthrough. Leo got mad stat blessed (fucking max speed as an archer without any bonus experience levels, i don't even know what the chances are). Or did you mean not being able to counter direct attacks? Because I've beaten the game multiple times and I didn't find out until my brother told me that the Double Bow had 1-3 range rather than just 2-3. It never came into play because I never let the enemies get near my archers. And I consider Marksman the best class in RD, so don't tell me it's because I "use them wrong."

Shinon's chance of capping speed doesn't really matter because it's rare when the other guys aren't double-attacking enemies when they get to equivalent level. Leo's somewhat of an exception because his speed growth tends to get him a bit screwed, but even then archers hit like a load of bricks in RD. Still, Rolf is just as usable as Shinon is for the exact same maps and ends up arguably better because if you're also using Boyd and Oscar, you can guarantee a crit. Triangle Attack makes the Dragon Chapter a total joke, and makes Dheginsea, Lehran, and Ashera as much of a joke.

I also realize the other person gets the bonuses from your support, but I'd much rather have each guy have a support that actually helped them as well. A good example is Zihark: his base 11 luck means he gets hit quite a lot so that earth affinity of his helps him out, and it'll help out his partner because most the guys on the DB could use a bit of extra avoid. I don't want Shinon getting attacked, people. I remove his default skill Provoke imediately every playthrough and slap it on Ike or Gatrie. I don't care what his defense is, I don't care what his HP is. He shouldn't be getting attacked because archers don't benefit your team if they are attacked on your turn. I honestly don't care, at all, what the avoid and defense on my archers are, especially after they become Marksman, because they never get attacked. That's one reason I get on people's cases for hating on an archer or mage with "bad defense" because it doesn't matter if they have "good defense." A good strategist will make use of them the exact same way, which doesn't require them getting attacked.

I also don't get the crossbow/double bow argument. You mean with the 3 range that Marksman offers, you're running into melee with your guy? The hell for? My best guess is that you're still attacking from 3 spaces away, and if you're attacking form 3 spaces away as the first guy on your team to attack, I guarantee you'll be able to find a way to keep enemies from getting to your archer. Guarantee it. Unless you have Down Syndrome, in which case strategy games probably aren't your thing to begin with. Crossbows are pretty much useless outside of the first real mission for the Greil Mercenaries (why hit a guy for 9 when you can hit him for 20+? just because you'll be able to counter melee on your turn? please.) Other than that, they are ONLY good with beast/bird/dragonfoe equipped. Beastfoe only comes into play on two maps in the entire game, birdfoe on only one, and dragonfoe on only one. And chances are, if you used Nolan or Boyd, they'll be the ones using the Crossbow on the Dragon chapter while your marksman hoists his double bow and attacks from 3 spaces away so he doesn't risk getting countered.

[Florete]

Meg's not so great endgame.

Astrid is. Easily the best Gold/Silver Knight come endgame. Potential stat boost from PoR transfer, best candidate for Blossom, the only unit getting significant experience in her chapters in part 2 and the best SS weapon = win. Stat capping isn't an issue when BEXP means almost anyone can hit most or all of their caps, and she easily has the best caps of any Paladin type in the game.

EDIT: Double Bow's range is 1-2, not 1-3. Marksmen as a class have the extra range.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Warrior of Dawn]

I decided to use Meg in my most recent playthrough.

My God, she is a BEAST.

By Part 1 endgame, she was easily tier 2, two-hitting everything with 100% accuracy for 'bout 19 damage per time. Equipped with a Steel Sword.

Even Jarod proved no problem whatsoever for her, as he did about 7 damage. And she had imbue healing 6 per turn (not great, but useful!).

Admittedly, she needed babying for 2 or so chapters, after that, everyone else needed babying in the face of her awesome.

I'm gonna use her from now on.

I'm also training up Astrid. With a little "Continually-shoot-the-enemy-while-he-sits-on-a-healing-bush" Training, she had surpassed Makalov in everything and was catching up to Kieran, by the end of Part 2, Chapter 3.

That, and she has those few chapters near the end of part 3, which Geoffrey doesn't have.

----

On the subject of Archers, I find that Rolf is better than Shinon in every way. He does take a bit more levelling than Shinon, but, by the end, he is far better as an Archer. He obliterated Deghinsea without so much as a blink.

This time round, I'm taking poor, underused Leo. He may not be the best, but I feel a bit sorry for him.

[Judge Judy]

This time round, I'm taking poor, underused Leo. He may not be the best, but I feel a bit sorry for him.

I always have the worst luck with Leonardo :(

I am gonna try to level him up again.

[Reikken]

The Lugnasahd doesn't get +1 attack range from being a bow used by a Marksman? ... Or did you mean not being able to counter direct attacks?

Yes, that's what I meant. If I had meant the first thing you said, I would have said something like "1 less range" rather than "no 1 range".

Shinon's chance of capping speed doesn't really matter because it's rare when the other guys aren't double-attacking enemies when they get to equivalent level. Leo's somewhat of an exception because his speed growth tends to get him a bit screwed, but even then archers hit like a load of bricks in RD. Still, Rolf is just as usable as Shinon is for the exact same maps and ends up arguably better because if you're also using Boyd and Oscar, you can guarantee a crit. Triangle Attack makes the Dragon Chapter a total joke, and makes Dheginsea, Lehran, and Ashera as much of a joke.

I never said Rolf wasn't good. He's fine. It's just Astrid and to a lesser extent, Leo, who are subpar.

I also don't get the crossbow/double bow argument. You mean with the 3 range that Marksman offers, you're running into melee with your guy?

Enemy phase.

I guarantee you'll be able to find a way to keep enemies from getting to your archer. Guarantee it.

When my archer has 30+ def and can counter melee, I want enemies to attack him.

Crossbows are pretty much useless outside of the first real mission for the Greil Mercenaries (why hit a guy for 9 when you can hit him for 20+? just because you'll be able to counter melee on your turn? please.)

Attack with standard bow. Trade -> move crossbow up to top.

[Ike-Mike]

Meg makes a better Paladin than Fiona.

And she was of much help in the chapter she joins.

[Wisper]

That one extra potential speed cap for Astrid makes her better than the Marksman, in a sense. She can double-attack the wisps in the last two chapters while none of the archers can. Actually, the only other one that has the potential to is Leonardo if he got speed blessed and is using his unique bow.

Also, Meg is great. She's really easy to stat-rig because her luck, speed and HP cap so early. She's got the best strength cap for any sword user other than Ike so while she isn't going to be double-attacking anything, she'll be hitting harder per hit. And her max defense is pretty freakin' great, especially in the Dragon Chapter if you have her roll around with the Alondite.

Ok. So Astrid has +1 speed. Awesome. She also has -10 HP, -3 strength, -4 skill, -5 def and -1 range. Rolf and Shinon can double essentialy everything else except Ashera and part 4-5 will o wisps...oh, and BTW Astrid gets a crappy 31 speed on average. Same as a Marshall. Rolf and Shinon are stronger, more defensive, and can attack WITHOUT BEING COUNTERED because of their awesome +1 range promotion.

And you're completely wrong about Meg too. Her HP and resistance growth aren't everything special and will "cap-ram" at all. Her luck is the only good growth, and who cares about that? Her strength and defense are too low for a knight considering you get two better ones later on, ones who use better weapons, have better caps and actually cap things outside of luck and speed. Also, her luck cap is 30 and speed cap is 32. How much is she going to evade or double with with those caps, even if she does cap them? Meg is weak and can't take a hit well enough for a knight, and there is ALWAYS a better alternative to using her, especially since she comes so weak, underleveled, and at a point where the Dawn Brigade would have to sacrifice neccesary EXP to baby her. EXP that they really need for their good units so they can just stay alive.

[Reikken]

Rolf and Shinon can double essentialy everything else except Ashera and part 4-5 will o wisps

No, they double those, too.

[Florete]

Ok. So Astrid has +1 speed. Awesome. She also has -10 HP, -3 strength, -4 skill, -5 def and -1 range. Rolf and Shinon can double essentialy everything else except Ashera and part 4-5 will o wisps...oh, and BTW Astrid gets a crappy 31 speed on average. Same as a Marshall. Rolf and Shinon are stronger, more defensive, and can attack WITHOUT BEING COUNTERED because of their awesome +1 range promotion.

Blossom, Bonus experience, lances, and a horse say Astrid is a good alternative bow user.

[Reikken]

Blossom, Bonus experience, lances, and a horse say Astrid is a good alternative bow user.

*if the only thing you care about is endgame and aren't playing hard mode.

[Florete]

*if the only thing you care about is endgame and aren't playing hard mode.

She's good on Marauders in part 3 if you used her right, and great come part 4. Yes, even on hard mode.

[Reikken]

Making 2-3 take 20 times longer and in the process denying you a large sum of bexp is the opposite of good.

[Florete]

Making 2-3 take 20 times longer and in the process denying you a large sum of bexp is the opposite of good.

Who's actually getting max BEXP on that chapter? Seriously?

And she doesn't have to make it unnecessarily slow. She's a great hit-and-run unit, and she's still gaining as much experience for that as the others are gaining for a kill, possibly more.

[Reikken]

You don't need to go out of your way to get max when you can very easily get almost max.

and ~7 turns of getting +9 exp for a hit isn't getting her enough to really matter at all. Exp from nonkills fails on hard mode. Seriously.