Birthright Tier List

[XeKr]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oh, my apologies; I misread and thought you were arguing that Jakob was worse in this path (and thus that he is too high?). I agree that he's too low if anything; I would agree that at he should be above the ninjas... and the arguments which put him above Silas in Conquest probably hold here too, although Silas' better weapon ranks in Birthright make that much less clearcut.

I really can't see him being above Ryoma, no amount of hype for availability and shelter + flight can make up for how dominant Ryoma is in combat to me. In a LTC tier list I could certainly buy it but that's not what this is.

Jakob can get D rank by the time it matters since C7/Mozu’s paralogue are steamrolls for him. Brass/Iron is usually enough due to his Str and Elbow Room and D is enough for effective weaponry. By the time enemies start to threaten him he’ll have C for the option of the Guard Naginata (in Paladin/Wyvern Lord). Silas also doesn’t have as good 1-2 range since he can’t go the early Trample route.

Ryoma’s offense is overkill for most of the game and he can’t probably won’t have 8 move until chapter 19 or so. Jakob’s 1-2 range remains solid with 9 from skills + 14 Bolt Axe mt + 5 Onmyogi C Orochi Pair Up + 2 Tonic (+ 6 Malig base). The biggest problem he has is durability lategame and accuracy vs. mages (he can go Wyvern Lord/Paladin to Bolt Nagi but loses the Malig base). Corrin doesn’t really have this problem as she can have an actual Mag stat, Horse Spirit and use Jakob/Felicia as a pair up. The mobility gap is also actually bigger than one might first think, since Lunge is potentially 2 more (and goes through walls). Up to 10/11 move vs. 6/7 move is a big difference if both are onerounding pretty consistently.

I’m pretty sure strict LTCers consider Ryoma even worse, as you can have Saizo or whoever mostly replicate his contributions, and rig lethalities on the lategame bosskills. I actually hold reliability to a very (very) high standard, so I wouldn’t go that far.

I could see Ryoma > Jakob if lategame is valued more than earlygame. There are interesting arguments there wrt to units that are good when others are meh vs good when others are good, or utility when having few deployment choices vs. many deployment choices, blahblah. Corrin seems solidly better though. I actually think her earlygame is a bit overrated (to be comparable to Jakob early, you have to forgo +Mag for +Str), but it’s hard to say she isn’t still one of the best units then. She then has the potential for Horse Spirit and high raw durability+mobility, in either Dark Knight or Malig, by the time Ryoma joins.

How do you see Corrin vs. Ryoma and Corrin vs. Jakob?

22 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

The ninjas have significantly better 1-2 range though, Jakob is relying on an unforged Javelin(which is contested by all the other lance users at the time). He also needs a Heart Seal which are in short supply early and Corrin definitely wants one of those. Being mounted is just kinda meh with all the fliers BR gives you. That said, I don't think he should be a tier below Silas since they're very similar.

Kaze has trouble ORKOing promoted enemies in the lategame routs (even with Rinkah Pair Up) compared to Kagero and they have the same durability issues. Kagero doesn't really need extra Str or Spd so she can have a Pair Up that gives high Def like Hinata. I probably would value Kaze's early contributions more, but they're closer than most people think IMO..

Most units can't ohko with the Javelin like Jakob can. Those in the Pegasus line don't have the durability Jakob does and later their Mag is offset by Trample.

iirc Kaze fares decently in the C22 rout since he can dodge Axes/Bows with the Dual Shuriken while tanking magic with his Res. If he really can't oneround consistently like Kagero though, then yeah they're not too far. Especially if you discount his C4/5 contributions for a Birthright list. I still think the Ninjas are most valuable early, especially the C10 rout. Enemy Ninjas are fairly hard to oneround on enemy phase, especially once they start debuffing.

Edited February 26, 2017 by XeKr

[-Cynthia-]

2 minutes ago, XeKr said:

Most units can't ohko with the Javelin like Jakob can. The Falcons/Kinishies don't have the durability Jakob does and their Mag is offset by Trample.

Eh, I don't think we can assume Wyvern!Corrin for purposes of giving a class to Jakob because there are a number of good class options for Corrin- which means that he can't fly and he's competing for the Bolt Naginata with Subaki/Hinoka to have decent 1-2 range past the first few chapters. Not as impressive, though Silas has the same issues so eh.

[XeKr]

Malig is probably Corrin's best class mid/lategame though and it's possible to wait on the reclass since +Mag doesn't have the Str for early Hand Axe ohkos (and hit would suck on mages anyways).

And re: who reclasses first, it's not like Butler is that bad early. Shurikens, unrestricted mobility in the desert. 1 more move, 1 more Str base, 2 more Def base, same Spd compared to Ninjas.

Edited February 26, 2017 by XeKr

[-Cynthia-]

Even if Malig is the most optimal class choice for Corrin, I don't think I've seen a tier list with Avatar characters assume a certain class choice. Just seems like a niche option when discussing Jakob due to that uncertainty.

Butler isn't that bad- pretty much Kaze who doesn't double faster enemy types and never gets a promo bonus, but can use staves. 

[joshcja]

3 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

Even if Malig is the most optimal class choice for Corrin, I don't think I've seen a tier list with Avatar characters assume a certain class choice. Just seems like a niche option when discussing Jakob due to that uncertainty.

Butler isn't that bad- pretty much Kaze who doesn't double faster enemy types and never gets a promo bonus, but can use staves. 

I'm generaly in agreement on the first point however, assuming a crisp rate of play +Mag/+Hp are always assumed. Past that there's like 3 talents that are obviously head and shoulders above the competition in BR route and none of them actually matter until after ch13 aside from draco smuggling. Assumng efficent play I struggle to think of a reason to use anything but +hp draco.

The bigger deal here is assuming Jakob since Felecia is low key very strong on BR route.

Kaze is terrible past ch10 unless he damage stacks, thankfully he has that crisp A+ with Silias and uuuh (I'm legitimately trying to think of a source of damage stack in BR not locked to L15 or named Corn/Servant/Silias).

Subaki strats are kinda sorta usable on child runs not because he has any use mid/lategame whatsoever but rather because he requires 0 exp to carry a real unit around and you just drop him on his neck asap. Not-Cordelia does a decent enough job of replicating falco!Sakura without the heart seal use. Actually using him for combat is a reddit meme unless you figure out a way to marry him off to Azura ASAP.

I like how nobody has mentioned the exceptionally stupid things shove does to the game in some places.

Edited February 26, 2017 by joshcja

[Interdimensional Observer]

Just doing a check in, haven't decided to make any additional changes yet, though moving Jakob 1 up to High and moving Silas below him is a definite possibility.

However, I do want to comment on a couple minor points that have been made. First, Ninja Setsuna is bad. At 20/15 (shifting over to Ninja at level 10 to swipe Quick Draw first) Setsuna has 16 Strength. Kaze, whom she was being compared to, has 23 (22.95), still more even with Quick Draw factored in. Her only lead over him is a couple Luck.

As for Setsuna vs. Mozu, we're looking at an 8 Strength point difference (20.85 and 29.45) at 20/15, not insignificant.

Falcoknight Subaki/Hinoka has 11/13 Magic at 20/15, to which if we the add the two Spirit Dusts, a tonic, an A Lance rank, an Onmyoji, and the Bolt Naginata, we get 34/36 Res-hitting attack total. Bolt Axe 20/15 OC Rinkah has 43 Attack if I did the math right. Though this is meaningless without enemy data to compare it. Recording such data would be chore, but running through Lunatic Fates should be easy with skill buying or Einherjars. 

Judgments on Hana are also pending based exactly how much she can kill with ease. But bringing her back to Low might be in the works. The number of characters per tier need be only roughly equal, or at least not crazy top heavy.

As for the value of early game vs. late game, I used the one complete Fates guide (inaccurate at points, it is quick at hand) on Gamefaqs to see the mission objectives. According to said guide, which might feature less enemies on its maps than we'd be dealing with due to it being on Casual Normal (it certainly has less reinforcements), all chapters prior to C12 the opera escape are routs. C13 is another rout, and while C14 is a boss kill, it might as well be a rout I think. Not until C18 (Leo) do we find another boss kill objective, a fast and easy clear. C19 is the wacky stat sanctuary (a rout). C20 will end up playing like a rout... unless Lunge is brought in, then it becomes a quick clear (though one of the chests packs Boots). C21 is Burning Falls, the challenge of which is wholly dependent whether the Stoneborn can stone to death any hopes of buzzing a bosskiller or two to their leader. C22, a rout, is Shura's Wakeup Call. C23 is a rout in Camilla's Combustible Alleyways. C24 is "Welcome to the Hans Arena!". The chapter is very hectic if you choose to slug it out, but fortunately, one can nab the droppable goods, while safely flying a unit or two over all the empty space and kill Hans (whose high HP is more than countered by his awful defenses) just before the baddies can butcher you. Iago I heard can be quickly assassinated in C25 by letting a boss slayer get hit with Entrap, but seems a bit risky. If not possible, we'll have to endure a gigaton of reinforcements. C26 is Xander's unfunny joke of a battle, there isn't even any goodies to prolong the fight for. C27- we'll have to take on a least a good chunk of the enemy, if not everyone, as Garon has sufficient bodyguards, bulk, and distance from the player's starting position to prevent a fast death. C28 is a Hexing hit and maybe some Rescue, and quite doable in 1 turn.

Now I'm not saying we need to absolutely do things as quickly as possible and go for boss kills ASAP, but it should be considered, and particularly in the case of C24, going slow seems extremely dangerous.

As for missing out on chests or droppable goodies due to speed, remember that any Hoshidan festal or weapon can be bought (though free extras are never bad), and that the store sells 1 of every stat booster but boots and herbs after C20, which can compensate for a missed freebie in exchange for 10k. Only boots, S rank weapons, and Nohrian gear are wholly unique freebies unobtainable any other way. And on this topic, adding up all the gold listed in the Gamefaqs guide, BR gets 127k total (Conquest has 113k and Rev 60k).

Edit: corrected C22's and 23's objectives (I thought they seemed odd), darn that GFAQs guide couldn't get even the objectives right! And then I edited the following statement a bit.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[XeKr]

On 2/25/2017 at 8:03 PM, -Cynthia- said:

Even if Malig is the most optimal class choice for Corrin, I don't think I've seen a tier list with Avatar characters assume a certain class choice. Just seems like a niche option when discussing Jakob due to that uncertainty.

Butler isn't that bad- pretty much Kaze who doesn't double faster enemy types and never gets a promo bonus, but can use staves. 

I suppose I see Corrin going Dragon Talent and marrying Jakob as similar to giving Haar/Xander a Speedwing. It enables efficient clears, so you do it. I hedged earlier regarding reclasses but I don’t see why we wouldn’t maximize a character’s potential if we’re using and tiering them.

I already addressed most of the opportunity cost too. Corrin could reclass first, but there’s certain tradeoffs depending on the boon. imo it’s less clear what’s optimal here, though I tend to think it’s +Mag. Corrin could use other classes, but Malig is probably her best one. Corrin could marry others, but an early Trample Wyvern (that has flying+shelter. And double Trample kids) is one of most unique/useful things we can get out of the marriage.

There’s other possibilities where Corrin nabs Malig off Scarlet (and goes what, Ninja/Cav/Diviner? Takes around 5 chapters without Private Quarters tho), but I’m not too sure how things shake out.

imo a more niche option for Jakob would be S Kagero so that he contributes in the later routs with Shurikenfaire/Replicate. Paladin earlygame plus that is still pretty nice. 

The Butler point is mainly showing that Jakob has a Saizo-like earlygame (which I think is pretty good), even if he doesn't reclass.

13 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Falcoknight Subaki/Hinoka has 11/13 Magic at 20/15, to which if we the add the two Spirit Dusts, a tonic, an A Lance rank, an Onmyoji, and the Bolt Naginata, we get 34/36 Res-hitting attack total. Bolt Axe 20/15 OC Rinkah has 43 Attack if I did the math right. Though this is meaningless without enemy data to compare it. Recording such data would be chore, but running through Lunatic Fates should be easy with skill buying or Einherjars. 

As for the value of early game vs. late game, I used the one complete Fates guide (inaccurate at points, it is quick at hand) on Gamefaqs to see the mission objectives. According to said guide, which might feature less enemies on its maps than we'd be dealing with due to it being on Casual Normal (it certainly has less reinforcements), all chapters prior to C12 the opera escape are routs. C13 is another rout, and while C14 is a boss kill, it might as well be a rout I think. Not until C18 (Leo) do we find another boss kill objective, a fast and easy clear. C19 is the wacky stat sanctuary (a rout). Now beyond this point, all chapter objectives are boss kills. C20 will end up playing like a rout... unless Lunge is brought in, then it becomes a quick clear (though one of the chests packs Boots). C21 is Burning Falls, the challenge of which is wholly dependent whether the Stoneborn can stone to death any hopes of buzzing a bosskiller or two to their leader. C22 is Shura's chapter, is possible to do quickly with valuable Rescue use, and 2 turn or something might be possible without it. I could have sworn C23 Camilla was a rout, but the guide says boss kill, a very difficult one to quickly pull off I think. C24 is "Welcome to the Hans Arena!". The chapter is very hectic if you choose to slug it out, but fortunately, one can nab the droppable goods, while safely flying a unit or two over all the empty space and kill Hans (whose high HP is more than countered by his awful defenses) just before the baddies can butcher you. Iago I heard can be quickly assassinated in C25 by letting a boss slayer get hit with Entrap, but seems a bit risky. If not possible, we'll have to endure a gigaton of reinforcements. C26 is Xander's unfunny joke of a battle, there isn't even any goodies to prolong the fight for. C27- we'll have to take on a least a good chunk of the enemy, if not everyone, as Garon has sufficient bodyguards, bulk, and distance from the player's starting position to prevent a fast death. C28 is a Hexing hit and maybe some Rescue, and quite doable in 1 turn.

Subaki gets some hype as Hinoka with C7 availability, but I’ve never been that convinced the stat discrepancy is that irrelevant. Beyond the bases/growths, Hinoka can also get +4 Magic from S Silas, Elbow Room/Defender. Currently, I don’t think Subaki is that good mid/late outside the few contributions mentioned earlier. It’s just Birthright outside those few cases is largely a lot of bosskills, as noted, many of which rely on Rescue/ferrying to do efficiently. So I don’t see him in Low. He seems pretty useless in C22 sure, though perhaps Caeldori can do something there because of Prodigy. C23 he’s not very good though he can pick some lingering Horse kills.

Re: chapter objectives, iirc C17 is basically a bosskill if you Shove to avoid the reinforcements around Flora. C22 is a rout and it can be tough to do efficiently since the enemies are all spread out, and some like to stick to the ballistas. Berserkers/Sorcs also hit hard. C23 is a rout, which mostly depends on how fast you can aggro Camilla and trigger her Wyvern reinforcements. 1-2 range is important here as a slower pace results in various reinforcements around the map which drags on.

The rest of the mid/lategame is pretty fast, which I find is what makes Ryoma actually valuable. If using dance/Rescue/etc to maximum potential, other units are mostly underleveled and don’t have the stats to fight very reliably. Child paralogues, if we going to them, can help this a bit. Though enemies there are less trash and Ryoma probably fights the few really high level ones the best, which might also be relevant.

Edited February 27, 2017 by XeKr

[guedesbrawl]

12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

and particularly in the case of C24, going slow seems extremely dangerous.

Can confirm, even though I gimped myself considerably with quite a few restrictions (no prepromotes, no reclassing, no child paralogues, no tonics/mess hall, etc). If you slug it out it means you will spend a lot of time near the starting area, and might even need to hole up in the southern bridge to minimize EP action.

This map is just too open for the old bait-tank-and-clean-up to be a great strategy. It is doable, but not something I'd recommend, efficiency or otherwise.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Thanks XeKr for the chapter objectives correction. Also, thank you for describing how Shove can be useful. Seeing how only Rinkah, Hayato, and Hinata can get it without bonding, I didn't think much of it. Tellius giving it to every unmounted unit made Shove/Smite chains much easier. If it has its uses, I'm all for factoring that in.

For Subaki- he is the only flier at the beginning, which is valuable, but Hinoka comes pretty soon. And by midgame you have Reina and Scarlet. Plus, you can reclass Sakura to Falcoknight and she'll still be a good (and now more mobile) festalbot with good Bolt Naginata combat if you work on the E rank. Heck, Takumi could go Kinshi for stint (-1 Speed and 3-5 Strength plus critical and hit over Sniper) if you desperately needed another. How many fliers are necessary? And don't forget if we just want high 7/8 move sans wings- Paladins exist. Shura has 9 move as a Bow Knight for the late game. And Scarlet could take two level in BK to become a 9 move WL/8 mov GK.

As for his stat losses to Hinoka- she has a mere 3 Strength lead at 20/15, and starts a single point stronger. The Resistance lead starts at 5, and climbs to 14 at 20/15. The Speed is 11 vs. 16 at level 8 (Hinoka's base) and 23 vs. 35 at 20/15. Gigantic yes, and Darting Blow can only bring him to average Nohrian AS, he'll need more help to double most things actually. For the enemy phase, well it's not like fliers will have much of one whenever a bow is present, but we could always make him a MoA and Hinoka a SpM, or Basara for Bolt Naginata. And Subaki is outright awful compared to Hinoka really, he needs a Speed pairup for offense's sake (Hinoka can take an Oni/GK for more offense and durability) and has dirt Resistance which makes even those Dark and Malig Knights with their weak Magic a threat.

The only thing keeping Subaki in Low seems to be his early flier status and not being that much physically weaker than Hinoka. If it can be proved that he isn't doing that much for those early chapters, Mr. (Im)Perfect is dropping to Bottom. 

On the topic of children, I guess I could permit child paralogues, though I fear it would result in an EXP glut. Do remember support grinding is forbidden though, so you'll only be able to get some of the kids (how many is "some" I can't say), certainly not all. Furthermore, I wouldn't want someone to try feeding all the stationary Berserkers on Mitama's chapter to one underleveled character or something. You'd have to play child battles if they are permitted as you would a mandatory one- at an efficient pace. As for when to recruit the kids, you would get to choose. Though this might seriously dilute the value of lategame for the 1st generation, as Takumi could be rendered useless with a late recruit Kiragi. Subaki with Caeldori, and Hinata with Hisame to give just a few examples. 

Though I won't bother ranking the kids, even in their own tier list, I think we can agree Kana, Midori, and Selkie are the worst. Shigure is slightly better than Caeldori and both are decent with flight. Sophie is bit inferior to Silas, but still mobile and has access to two or three good weapon ranks. Hisame is a horseless Sophie. Asugi, Shiro, and Rhajat are all good combat units. Dwyer is inferior to Mitama when reclassed, but as festalbots, he has a horse lead.

[guedesbrawl]

Children Paralogues are no better than random encounters. Grinding. They put you ahead of the level curve.

 

I'd say ban them.

[joshcja]

Eh you start out so far ahead of the level flatline in BR that a little extra exp is not exactly game breaking.

BR kids are also pretty weak overall with not-Cordelia as the "best" route exclusive and she's no Sophie/Dwyer.

[guedesbrawl]

Still grinding. Never mind absurd stuff like Midori's 1/2-turn clear with a Dragon herb as the prize.

Edited February 28, 2017 by guedesbrawl