Sword Pegasi or Lance Pegasi?

[Extrasolar]

Just now, Jotari said:

It's  magic. You really can't say with any degree of accuracy how easy or hard it is to learn compared to weapons. The art is entirely fictional.

Well of course you can't say with 100% certainty, but lots of things are more speculation in fiction than outright fact. We don't know how every aspect of the FE universe works, but going off the small hints that we get we can draw certain conclusions.

It seems like magic was meant to be rare/hard to learn and study, considering in the Archanea games, nobody even had a resistance growth or stat except for the godly mage Gotoh. Not to mention when we learn in POR and Blazing Blade that mages can actually die if they use their magic recklessly, as well as magic miscast being capable of blowing allies to smithereens. What I'm saying is that it's a different beast than physical weapons, and the games themselves back it up.

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Well of course you can't say with 100% certainty, but lots of things are more speculation in fiction than outright fact. We don't know how every aspect of the FE universe works, but going off the small hints that we get we can draw certain conclusions.

It seems like magic was meant to be rare/hard to learn and study, considering in the Archanea games, nobody even had a resistance growth or stat except for the godly mage Gotoh. Not to mention when we learn in POR and Blazing Blade that mages can actually die if they use their magic recklessly, as well as magic miscast being capable of blowing allies to smithereens. What I'm saying is that it's a different beast than physical weapons, and the games themselves back it up.

Neither of those games feature Hybrid classes though.

[Extrasolar]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Neither of those games feature Hybrid classes though.

I don't see how that's relevant to my argument that magic seems to be rare or hard to learn/cast in FE? Unless I'm missing something here?

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I don't see how that's relevant to my argument that magic seems to be rare or hard to learn/cast in FE? Unless I'm missing something here?

Fire Emblem has multiple continuities in which different things are treating in different ways. See manaketes, laguz, the nature of wyverns and the role of gods. Fire Emblem treats magic in different ways in different games. Most notably Gaiden's cast from HP magic (which in Tellius is considered basically impossible for Beorc).

Edited February 28, 2017 by Jotari

[Extrasolar]

Just now, Jotari said:

Fire Emblem has multiple continuities in which different things are treating in different ways. See manaketes, laguz, Gaiden's magic system, the nature of wyverns and the role of gods.

While things are usually not exactly the same, they have a lot of common elements, and it's safe to say that they work in a similar, if not entirely same way. You still have anima mages in every game, invoking elemental spirits to cast their spells - Gaiden mages use their life force to focus the power as opposed to tomes. While the gods of the FE worlds may be different, the way staves work by invoking divine energy is likely the same.

Hand axes still inexplicably boomerang back to the user no matter the universe, et. al.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

While things are usually not exactly the same, they have a lot of common elements, and it's safe to say that they work in a similar, if not entirely same way. You still have anima mages in every game, invoking elemental spirits to cast their spells - Gaiden mages use their life force to focus the power as opposed to tomes. While the gods of the FE worlds may be different, the way staves work by invoking divine energy is likely the same.

Hand axes still inexplicably boomerang back to the user no matter the universe, et. al.

You have no evidence of that in the slightest. One game has suggested that, one of two games that actually have an important role played by the god the world primarily worships. And the tenth game in the series overall. It has not been reasserted since and given the nature of Ashera even in Tellius, it's incredibly dubious if it was even true to begin with (she's supposedly responsible for the brand too yet she doesn't even know the branded exist. She's also been unconscious for centuries and you have no problem using even the Ashera Staff when fighting against her). Magic overall is a nebulous concept and has been shown to be treated differently in different games. Aside from the Gaiden example, in Jugdral dark magic actively corrupts its user and destroys their soul. In the Gameboy Advance games it's merely older magic fueled by knowledge. In Jugdral and Tellius anima magic is split up into different categories with separate weapon ranks and some classes can't even use some types of anima magic. Yet in the other games if you have the rank you can use the magic regardless of the type. Predominantly magic is depicted as an art. Something that must be studied and learned. There's no reason to believe it's any more difficult to take up than something like horseback Archery (which I imagine is a monstrously difficult skill to perfect). And even then, with all that considered or ignored, Pegasus Riders still are shown to have a predisposition towards magic since they naturally have very high resistance  stat (something you yourself point out as being a factor when considering the older games).

Edited February 28, 2017 by Jotari

[Extrasolar]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You have no evidence of that in the slightest. One game has suggested that, one of two games that actually have an important role played by the god the world primarily worships. And the tenth game in the series overall. It has not been reasserted since and given the nature of Ashera even in Tellius, it's incredibly dubious if it was even true to begin with (she's supposedly responsible for the brand too yet she doesn't even know the branded exist. She's also been unconscious for centuries and you have no problem using even the Ashera Staff when fighting against her). Magic overall is a nebulous concept and has been shown to be treated differently in different games. Aside from the Gaiden example, in Jugdral dark magic actively corrupts its user and destroys their soul. In the Gameboy Advance games it's merely older magic fueled by knowledge. In Jugdral and Tellius anima magic is split up into different categories with separate weapon ranks and some classes can't even use some types of anima magic. Yet in the other games if you have the rank you can use the magic regardless of the type. Predominantly magic is depicted as an art. Something that must be studied and learned. There's no reason to believe it's any more difficult to take up than something like horseback Archery (which I imagine is a monstrously difficult skill to perfect). And even then, with all that considered or ignored, Pegasus Riders still are shown to have a predisposition towards magic since they naturally have very high resistance  stat (something you yourself point out as being a factor when considering the older games).

Gods don't have to be conscious of their power being invoked to grant it. That's how it's worked in tabletop for years. Hell, if a god had to divert attention and be notified each time a worshipper called their name to cast a spell, they'd go legit insane. It's on autopilot mode.

I do have evidence of that. Again, in Sacred Stones, it's made clear that light magic/healing magic is faith based in a conversation between Knoll and Natasha. Micaiah is lauded as unsual with her abilities to heal and cast light magic while being unrelated to a divinity, and then we later find out that she actually is related to a divinity. Rhys in POR invokes Ashera's name when he casts his magic in dialogue a few times. In Jugdral, the cleric Lana is explicitly referred to as a nun by Seliph (nuns, religious order. all of that). Claud invokes Blaggi the priest when using his magic. Again, it's divine. All divine. There's plenty of evidence pointing it out. Different gods, same method of casting the power.

Actually, dark magic in GBA also corrupts; read Canas' supports again. He mentions that his brothers have long-fallen to the dark magic, to the point that they're not really even sentient anymore, and that one always feels a pull toward darker influences. It takes a strong person to resist it. And in POR, it wasn't split at all, with each mage able to use each element. RD had it split in class name only, as every anima mage could still use each element, but could only get max rank in one.

High resistance stat does not automatically equal magically inclined, though mages do often have high resistance stats. Paladins have high resistance stats, and they can't handle a staff at all. I said that the lack of resistance on units in older games points to magic being rarer or especially dangerous, as no one has any natural resistance to it unless they're a magical dragon god.

EDIT: Also, paladins are meant to be divine warriors blessed by the gods. Hence, their high resistance could easily be a form of their deity protecting them from other magical energy.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Gods don't have to be conscious of their power being invoked to grant it. That's how it's worked in tabletop for years. Hell, if a god had to divert attention and be notified each time a worshipper called their name to cast a spell, they'd go legit insane. It's on autopilot mode.

I do have evidence of that. Again, in Sacred Stones, it's made clear that light magic/healing magic is faith based in a conversation between Knoll and Natasha. Micaiah is lauded as unsual with her abilities to heal and cast light magic while being unrelated to a divinity, and then we later find out that she actually is related to a divinity. Rhys in POR invokes Ashera's name when he casts his magic in dialogue a few times. In Jugdral, the cleric Lana is explicitly referred to as a nun by Seliph (nuns, religious order. all of that). Claud invokes Blaggi the priest when using his magic. Again, it's divine. All divine. There's plenty of evidence pointing it out. Different gods, same method of casting the power.

Actually, dark magic in GBA also corrupts; read Canas' supports again. He mentions that his brothers have long-fallen to the dark magic, to the point that they're not really even sentient anymore, and that one always feels a pull toward darker influences. It takes a strong person to resist it. And in POR, it wasn't split at all, with each mage able to use each element. RD had it split in class name only, as every anima mage could still use each element, but could only get max rank in one.

High resistance stat does not automatically equal magically inclined, though mages do often have high resistance stats. Paladins have high resistance stats, and they can't handle a staff at all. I said that the lack of resistance on units in older games points to magic being rarer or especially dangerous, as no one has any natural resistance to it unless they're a magical dragon god.

EDIT: Also, paladins are meant to be divine warriors blessed by the gods. Hence, their high resistance could easily be a form of their deity protecting them from other magical energy.

How it works in tabletop games is irrelevant. Fire Emblem might have been inspired partially by them but that doesn't mean you can directly lift their rules into a different setting. Additionally even if Ashera could grant people the ability to use magic while unconscious, she certainly should have been able to stop her enemies from using it once she did wake up. If not then it can't really be said to come from her. Additionally nobody makes any noise about magic disappearing when Ashera and Yune are partially destroyed at the end of the game.

You miss my point about MIcaiah. The fact that she can perform magic without a stave is considered a miracle in Tellius while in Valencia it's considered normal.

Light magic is said to be powered by faith while dark magic is powered by knowledge. That is the character's belief in the god, not the gods actual favour. We've seen plenty of heretics, traitors and outright dark magic users knowing how to use staves. If they can still use magic of divine origin then it's no stranger than a pegasus knight or trickster can. The whole origin of magic is also largely irrelevant since the whole argument isn't about where it comes from, but about how hard it actually is to perform. (and considering the number of Hybrid classes we've seen since hey were first introduce in Jugdral, the answer is clearly no more than any other weapon.At least in the game where they decide to allow them to exist for gameplay reasons). Hell Leif can cast light magic in Holy War and I don't think he ever once makes a suggestion that he's any more religious than any generic pegasus unit 

Each mage being able to use all anima magic in Tellius is irrelevant. It still requires separate weapon ranks to use, that's a different approach to how it is in other games where you can use nothing but Fire Magic throughout the entire game and still have no problem wielding Bolting. Additionally in Radiant Dawn certain characters can't use certain magic. The two that come to mind are Ilyana before promotion and Pelleas both of which only have access to Thunder Anima.

Dark magic is depicted as dangerous but not inherently malicious in Elibe while in Jugdral it is confirmed to be 100% evil and will definitely corrupt you if you keep using it.

And now you're just flip flopping your opinion as you directly stated earlier that having a low resistant stat was of the fact that magic is hard to learn.

2 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Well of course you can't say with 100% certainty, but lots of things are more speculation in fiction than outright fact. We don't know how every aspect of the FE universe works, but going off the small hints that we get we can draw certain conclusions.

It seems like magic was meant to be rare/hard to learn and study, considering in the Archanea games, nobody even had a resistance growth or stat except for the godly mage Gotoh. Not to mention when we learn in POR and Blazing Blade that mages can actually die if they use their magic recklessly, as well as magic miscast being capable of blowing allies to smithereens. What I'm saying is that it's a different beast than physical weapons, and the games themselves back it up.

Oh yeah and Falcon Knights can also summon angels to deal extra damage to monsters in Gaiden which definitely suggest they're magically inclined.

Now this has been a massive derailing from the original point of this topic in which staves were only a minor element, the primary focus being on swords and lances. If you want to discuss it further make a new thread.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Jotari

[Extrasolar]

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

How it works in tabletop games is irrelevant. Fire Emblem might have been inspired partially by them but that doesn't mean you can directly lift their rules into a different setting. Additionally even if Ashera could grant people the ability to use magic while unconscious, she certainly should have been able to stop her enemies from using it once she did wake up. If not then it can't really be said to come from her. Additionally nobody makes any noise about magic disappearing when Ashera and Yune are partially destroyed at the end of the game.
Light magic is said to be powered by faith while dark magic is powered by knowledge. That is the character's belief in the god, not the gods actual favour. We've seen plenty of heretics, traitors and outright dark magic users knowing how to use staves. If they can still use magic of divine origin then it's no stranger than a pegasus knight or trickster can.

Each mage being able to use all anima magic in Tellius is irrelevant. It still requires separate weapon ranks to use, that's a different approach to how it is in other games where you can use nothing but Fire Magic throughout the entire game and still have no problem wielding Bolting. Additionally in Radiant Dawn certain characters can't use certain magic. The two that come to mind are Ilyana before promotion and Pelleas both of which only have access to Thunder Anima.

Dark magic is depicted as dangerous but not inherently malicious in Elibe while in Jugdral it is confirmed to be 100% evil and will definitely corrupt you if you keep using it.

And now you're just flip flopping your opinion as you directly stated earlier that having a low resistant stat was of the fact that magic is hard to learn.

Oh yeah and Falcon Knights can also summon angels to deal extra damage to monsters in Gaiden which definitely suggest they're magically inclined.

Now this has been a massive derailing from the original point of this topic in which staves were only a minor element, the primary focus being on swords and lances. If you want to discuss it further make a new thread.

Um, just believing in a god doesn't mean you can use their power. Tons of people reference Naga in Archanea, many of them not clerics and bishops, and they can't use staves. Similarly, the Crusader gods are mentioned and invoked all the time in Jugdral by plenty of non-clerics, and they don't have healing powers either, not to mention the many times the goddess is mentioned in the Tellius games by non-clerics. No powers given to them either. Thus, implying that the god granting part of their power to certain people who practice certain rituals is the case, rather than just "I believe that X exists so I get part of their power."

Leif is using a magic sword to "cast" light magic. He's not really casting it himself.

I mean, dark magic users and all of that can still learn to invoke divine magic by performing the ritual correctly; I was saying that it would probably be a lot easier for them, due to their background in invoking powers of the universe already.

Plus, Ashera "turning off" her powers likely would mean that her own servants would lose access to divine magic as well, which for obvious reasons, is a bad idea. Thus, out of necessity she keeps them on.

As for dark magic being "100% evil" In Jugdral, Salem the good-aligned dark mage/shaman that joins Leif's army because he disagrees with the direction the Loptyrian church has gone says hi.

But your own thing of "just because it works in one FE doesn't mean it works in another" refutes the Gaiden example. So those Pegasus knights are magical, how does that mean other Pegasus knights are magical? Not to mention, Mila in general is invoked in pretty much all facets of life in Zofia, from that to even promoting units. They can't do much without her blessings to begin with.

Mentioning that no one had any resistance was me trying to say that magic was rare enough that no one would have an inborn resistance to it. If I didn't make that clear in the first time I mentioned it, I apologize, but that was what I meant. But if you're concerned about derailing the thread, this'll be my last post about this conversation.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Um, just believing in a god doesn't mean you can use their power. Tons of people reference Naga in Archanea, many of them not clerics and bishops, and they can't use staves. Similarly, the Crusader gods are mentioned and invoked all the time in Jugdral by plenty of non-clerics, and they don't have healing powers either, not to mention the many times the goddess is mentioned in the Tellius games by non-clerics. No powers given to them either. Thus, implying that the god granting part of their power to certain people who practice certain rituals is the case, rather than just "I believe that X exists so I get part of their power."

I mean, dark magic users and all of that can still learn to invoke divine magic by performing the ritual correctly; I was saying that it would probably be a lot easier for them, due to their background in invoking powers of the universe already.

Plus, Ashera "turning off" her powers likely would mean that her own servants would lose access to divine magic as well, which for obvious reasons, is a bad idea. Thus, out of necessity she keeps them on.

As for dark magic being "100% evil" In Jugdral, Salem the good-aligned dark mage/shaman that joins Leif's army because he disagrees with the direction the Loptyrian church has gone says hi.

But your own thing of ":just because it works in one FE doesn't mean it works in another" refutes the Gaiden example. So those pegasus knights are magical, how does that mean other pegasus nights are magical?

Mentioning that no one had any resistance was me trying to say that magic was rare enough that no one would have an inborn resistance to it. If I didn't make that clear in the first time I mentioned it, I apologize, but that was what I meant. But if you're concerned about derailing the thread, this'll be my last post about this conversation.

Okay one more for good luck.

-Saying they can't use magic because they're never seen using magic is illogical. It's the equivalent of me claiming Marth is unable to use a spear because we only ever see him use a sword. Yes, tons of people reference Naga in Archanea and tons of them actually can use staves. You just need to reclass them into a cleric or bishop. It's just an art they need to study.

-Okay so you're saying is all they need to do is perform the ritual. Therefore it's an art that just needs to be learned. Therefore a pegasus rider could do the exact same thing if they studied it in their spare time.

-By the time the player fights Ashera she doesn't have any more servants protecting her.

-Salem being good aligned doesn't mean the dark magic isn't affecting him in a negative way. That's why he has such a mopey design. Dark Magic being pure evil in Jugdral is a fact. It's said somewhere in the game or more likely Kaga's notes. It's not something I'm pulling out of my ass. I've seen other people refer to it at the very least.

-So you somehow think proving my point refutes my point? If the games treat magic differently in different settings then Pegasus Knights don't need to have any relationship to magic to use magic. That's the point. Time and time again we've seen units of all different types and backgrounds using magic. Pegasus Knights have been using staves on and off since Jugdral. Aside from them we've had Master Knights (as I've mentioned outright use Light Magic), mage knights, barons, emperors, battle clerics, dread fighters, brides, adventurers, tacticians, tricksters, great masters, any unit using a magic card and practically every unit in the last four games via reclass, using magic. It all points to the fact that magic is an art that anyone can learn (but not particularly excel at depending on their magic stat). A Pegasus Knights ability to be use magic isn't something that needs to be proven. It's a fact that they, and plenty of other classes, can. Regardless to the exact nature or origin of magic in any particular setting. Fire Emblem can, and have done, whatever they want when it comes to deciding who has the ability to do what in order to satisfy the needs of Gameplay.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Jotari