Guy

[Reikken]

lol at the naive thought that the average HP wouldn't go up if 4 people get HP boosts. In HHM the HP average is actually 53. And no, Hard Mode is NOT the be all and end all of the game. There are three other modes where his HP is average.

That's at 20/20, where Raven, Heath, and Bartre and maybe Dorcas have all maxed HP for about 2 levels, more in Bartre's case. And all this because I think his HP is nothing special for a unit that has defense and offense worse than Erk's. And considering that it's probably one of the worst stats, it's not something I would argue in his favor

Guy has the best offense. His atk power isn't superspecialawesome, but he's doing 4x damage per round. His defense is quite good, too with his high hp(high base, low growth means his hp is even more above average at lower levels than at high ones) and high avoid.

[bunny: spider bitten]

I suppose that's largely because of supports and the fact that Guy has better ones.

Though I'll admit that I was looking for someone to bite and said it without checking first, and I was also weighing heavily on him having slightly higher magic average and the average enemy res counting for something. Though I was referring to pure defense, and even his avoid is a bit overrated when the boosts to avoid are one sided in his best supports.

Edited October 23, 2008 by bunny

[Defeatist Elitist]

Like Revan said, I'm seeing too many biased statements to care anymore.

I'm going to try to explain again, hopefully it will be clear.

The statements are not biased. Well, they seem that way. SS especially is very used to things being done that way (ie, statements being just stated, and if you have a problem with it, you argue), so when he says things that seem biased (like, "Guy has the best offense", or "X characters are the only ones who will be used") he isn't saying that you can't argue them. It's hard to explain. If you disagree with something he says, argue it. Don't just say "I think that's biased", or "Why are you assuming units", but prove why those units wouldn't be used, or something like that.

SS, I'd have to say to you that maybe you could try to change the way you state things to make them seem less blatant, end all, and hostile? Saying things like "I think that it's probably better if you use X units" as opposed to "No, X units will be fielded, not Y units" will, while meaning a similar thing, just make you seem a lot less biased and more approachable.

[Florete]

I'm going to try to explain again, hopefully it will be clear.

The statements are not biased. Well, they seem that way. SS especially is very used to things being done that way (ie, statements being just stated, and if you have a problem with it, you argue), so when he says things that seem biased (like, "Guy has the best offense", or "X characters are the only ones who will be used") he isn't saying that you can't argue them. It's hard to explain. If you disagree with something he says, argue it. Don't just say "I think that's biased", or "Why are you assuming units", but prove why those units wouldn't be used, or something like that.

SS, I'd have to say to you that maybe you could try to change the way you state things to make them seem less blatant, end all, and hostile? Saying things like "I think that it's probably better if you use X units" as opposed to "No, X units will be fielded, not Y units" will, while meaning a similar thing, just make you seem a lot less biased and more approachable.

It makes sense, but if I "proved" why X unit shouldn't be used, I'd feel rather hypocritical. Why? Because my reasoning for seeing it as biased is because it doesn't always happen the same way. I can't "prove" why any character will or will not be used because it's entirely up to the players' choice. Saying someone is more likely to be used because he/she is a great character makes more sense, but assuming they are fielded just sounds stupid.

[Magical CC]

57 HP is just three away from capping. That's not average at all, especially for a Swordmaster.

Not really, my Guy's hp always higher than 50 and most of the time, higher than 55.

[Nightmare]

Uhhh...so? What's that have to do with what I said...?

[Tino]

Not really, my Guy's hp always higher than 50 and most of the time, higher than 55.

He meant that it's above average, not below.

[sandmanccl]

Guy DOES have pretty good HP.

Thing is, Lyn will probably have better HP than he will. (Or at least, equivalent.) Reason? That Seraph Robe in Lyn's chapters. It miraculously disappears if you don't use it before Eliwood/Hector's story begins, so your options are limited. Granted, you can give it to Wil, Matthew, Florina, Serra, Erk, Wallace, Kent, Sain, Dorcas, Rath or Lucius, but I personally find it's best on Lyn. Florina would be second best out of that group because half of them have good enough HP already and the other half don't ever really need to take a hit. The reason I give the nod to Lyn instead of Florina is because Florina at least has the option of tossing javelins instead of getting up close and personal so if there's ever a time it's a genuine risk to have her attack in melee combat, you can play it safe but if you want to use your sword guys, you sort of have to pummel them in the face and hope they don't hit you back.

BTW, I think it's best to use two people out of Lyn, Raven, and Guy because a sword unit serves a pretty useful purpose and having a second one ready to go in case the first one gets hurt or needs back up never hurts. I usually give Guy the shaft because his strength can be pretty spotty and the others eventually outclass his defensive capabilities. That's the only reason I'm comparing him to Lyn with this post.

Edited October 24, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Tino]

There's no rule that says you can't use three or more sword users.

Matthew, Serra, Erk, Lucius and Florina want that Seraph Robe way more than Lyn.

[sandmanccl]

I can see cases for Matthew and Florina, but Serra, Erk, Lucius? If they're ever taking more than a single hit from an enemy, it's because of a strategic melt-down. If they all had a combined 15% HP growth rate with a 5% growth rate in defense, it wouldn't matter because those stats so rarely matter to ranged units.

[Tino]

My point was that she's far from guaranteed to get that Angelic Robe, which means her HP will usually not be equal to Guy's. Even with that Angelic Robe it won't.

[sandmanccl]

Granted, but I'm all about options and different ways to do things.

It's simply for consideration. If you DO choose to give her that Angelic Robe (high recommended if you plan on using her), Guy and Lyn have equal HP for pretty much the majority of the game. Their gains are only 5% different and both are well above 50% so seeing numbers slightly higher than the average is common. The big difference is that he gains +5 HP upon promotion while she only gains +3, so even with the Angelic Robe, they end at 20/20 with like a single point of difference.

[Reikken]

Guy's hp is higher even if Lyn gets a seraph robe.

I usually give Guy the shaft because his strength can be pretty spotty and the others eventually outclass his defensive capabilities.

wot

Lyn's defense < Guy's

Guy has better def and avo.

[sandmanccl]

If you give her the Angelic Robe, she'll have more HP than him until they both hit 20/20. On Hard Mode, they'll have equivalent HP until seriously like 20/18 or so. Big friggin' whoopty doo.

Lyn also gets bows upon promotion so she tends to die less because she's in less situations where she even needs to defend/dodge.

Also, on average, they end up with the same defense. Guy will get a single stat bonus to defense on hard mode, but that's hardly significant. Both have pretty god-awful defenses so it's like comparing butter to margarine.

Also Lyn has better luck and their speed both hit cap pretty early so her avoid is just as good if not better than his.

Also Lyn has a unique sword that gives her added use for 45 attacks.

Also Lyn has the ability to support main characters that you are forced to use every single time you load the game, and you can't go wrong with anyone that can A-rank your main lord.

They are incredibly similar units, man. The difference is that Guy always joins at level 3 whereas Lyn can have a significant level advantage on him by the time he even joins (and therefore a statistical advantage) if you play through her story first. Saying Guy is 100% empirically better than Lyn is just as stupid as saying Lyn is 100% empirically better than Guy.

Besides, I think Raven outclasses them both.

[Swordsalmon]

If you give her the Angelic Robe, she'll have more HP than him until they both hit 20/20. On Hard Mode, they'll have equivalent HP until seriously like 20/18 or so. Big friggin' whoopty doo.

Lyn also gets bows upon promotion so she tends to die less because she's in less situations where she even needs to defend/dodge.

Also, on average, they end up with the same defense. Guy will get a single stat bonus to defense on hard mode, but that's hardly significant. Both have pretty god-awful defenses so it's like comparing butter to margarine.

Also Lyn has better luck and their speed both hit cap pretty early so her avoid is just as good if not better than his.

Also Lyn has a unique sword that gives her added use for 45 attacks.

Also Lyn has the ability to support main characters that you are forced to use every single time you load the game, and you can't go wrong with anyone that can A-rank your main lord.

They are incredibly similar units, man. The difference is that Guy always joins at level 3 whereas Lyn can have a significant level advantage on him by the time he even joins (and therefore a statistical advantage) if you play through her story first. Saying Guy is 100% empirically better than Lyn is just as stupid as saying Lyn is 100% empirically better than Guy.

Besides, I think Raven outclasses them both.

Hurts Funds and there are other options for it.

She also promotes near the end of the game, with low Bow rank. >_>

Guy has HHM bonuses, a reasonable promotion time, and reliable Avoid-boosting supports. Lyn does not.

The Mani Katti is her only offense for 45 attacks. Then, she loses most offense.

Hector and Eliwood have considerably better options than Lyn that give better bonuses and are faster.

Guy also has early-game utility and will be at about level 10 by Lyn's rejoin. It's likely she'll be underleveled, actually, level 6-7.

I'll argue that later. ^_^

[Meteor]

Bows mean she has to dodge more, because now Axe users don't have WTD against her.

Lyn has late promotion, meaning Guy will have the level advantage midgame.

[Raven]

I'll argue that later. ^_^

Even if you do, sandmanccl won't care. It's his opinion. So you'll be wasting your time, I believe.

[Just call me AL]

Hurts Funds and there are other options for it.

She also promotes near the end of the game, with low Bow rank. >_>

Guy has HHM bonuses, a reasonable promotion time, and reliable Avoid-boosting supports. Lyn does not.

The Mani Katti is her only offense for 45 attacks. Then, she loses most offense.

Hector and Eliwood have considerably better options than Lyn that give better bonuses and are faster.

Guy also has early-game utility and will be at about level 10 by Lyn's rejoin. It's likely she'll be underleveled, actually, level 6-7.

I'll argue that later. ^_^

Low bow rank = easily remedied by a short bow or two. Then when she hits C rank in bows, give her a Killer Bow, and watch corpses pile up. (Not like she needs it anyways.) And it's not like both Eli and Hector promote anytime earlier than she will. Like I said in the encouragement board, it's easy to see why she gets 9/10 on average for unit usefulness. While Hector gets a perfect 10, and Eliwood gets an 8/10 average. But since we're talking about Guy, I feel he relies too much on criticals to get the job done, while Lyn, well put it this way, what's pretty much a necessity for Guy is a simple bonus for Lyn. Meaning she can get the job done without the use of criticals.

As for supports, Guy's list isn't that very big, with his only best supports being Matt, and Priscilla when he joins. Meanwhile Lyn has a list twice as big when she rejoins, giving her some more versatility with supports. (But again, like she needs 'em, but they do help. And besides, on Hector's front, Eli gives the same bonuses as Ozzy and Lyn gives the same bonuses as Matt.) And as Fox has been stressing: Unit that is made better only with supports (I.e. someone like Guy.) < Someone who doesn't need supports to become better, but can benefit from them. (I.e. someone like Lyn.)

And you're right that Guy will have early game utility, but only if you're playing Eli's/Hec's story without going through Lyn's story first, and considering that your Lyn was raised properly if you did go through her story.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Little Al

[Reikken]

If you give her the Angelic Robe, she'll have more HP than him until they both hit 20/20. On Hard Mode, they'll have equivalent HP until seriously like 20/18 or so. Big friggin' whoopty doo.

Actually, the tying point on normal mode is 20/12. Guy has more after, Seraph Robe Lyn has more before.

On hard mode, Guy wins right from the start, and the lead only increases.

So overall, Guy wins even when giving Lyn an item that can go to several others. Also, by using that item, you can't use the energy ring and still S-rank funds. On average, said item is only giving her maybe +1-2 hp.

Also, on average, they end up with the same defense. Guy will get a single stat bonus to defense on hard mode, but that's hardly significant. Both have pretty god-awful defenses so it's like comparing butter to margarine.

They only end with same defense, and that's if they're both on the same level and reach max level and on normal mode.

At lv 15, for example, Guy wins by 2 def on normal mode. 3 on hard. Then Guy promotes either a good bit earlier or much earlier. You have 3 hero crests already by midway through ch 23 (Hector mode numbering). You don't get the first heaven seal until 26, and don't get the second until 28x (technically in 28, but you can't use it until the next chapter). So Guy is also on a higher level starting around ch 22-24.

Also Lyn has better luck and their speed both hit cap pretty early so her avoid is just as good if not better than his.

His affinity gives avoid. Hers doesn't.

And he does have more spd. Yes, they usually both cap by lv 20, but Guy has more spd at levels before that. He caps earlier. And they're likely not reaching 20 after promotion. And, as already mentioned, he's on a higher level after promotion and has time where he's promoted and Lyn isn't.

Lyn also gets bows upon promotion so she tends to die less because she's in less situations where she even needs to defend/dodge.

...

Also Lyn has a unique sword that gives her added use for 45 attacks.

Yeah, she has a nice sword before promotion to help make up for losing in stats before promotion, and she gets bows once she finally promotes.

And Guy gets +15 crit on promotion.

Also Lyn has the ability to support main characters that you are forced to use every single time you load the game, and you can't go wrong with anyone that can A-rank your main lord.

Lyn is on the worse end of support options for both Hector and Eliwood. First, her affinity is pretty bad for Eliwood, and decent but still meh for Hector. Next, they both have several supports that start earlier and/or are faster. And finally, Lyn is more of a backliner due to her crappy defenses while most of their other supports are more durable and so can be with them on the front lines.

It's nice, but eh. It's not that great.

On NM, it's closer, though Guy is still better, but on HHM, Lyn gets badly outclassed.

Besides, I think Raven outclasses them both.

That's completely irrelevant. Use both Guy and Raven since they're two of the game's best. At least on HHM.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Reikken

[_____]

Low bow rank = easily remedied by a short bow or two. Then when she hits C rank in bows, give her a Killer Bow, and watch corpses pile up. (Not like she needs it anyways.) And it's not like both Eli and Hector promote anytime earlier than she will. Like I said in the encouragement board, it's easy to see why she gets 9/10 on average for unit usefulness. While Hector gets a perfect 10, and Eliwood gets an 8/10 average. But since we're talking about Guy, I feel he relies too much on criticals to get the job done, while Lyn, well put it this way, what's pretty much a necessity for Guy is a simple bonus for Lyn. Meaning she can get the job done without the use of criticals.

Lies. She's promoting much later than Eliwood in HHM because Eliwood makes much better use of the promotion items. He gains a pretty little pony, lances, and higher con. Lyn gains bows. Whoo, hard choice. She can't even counter with the bows, so swarming fliers can kill her, especially accurate Falcon Knights. Hector's promoting the latest, and he's STILL stronger than Lyn and more durable. Lyn: 6/10 for usefulness. Eliwood: 10 or 9/10. Hector: 7 or 8/10. Short bows have very unreliable criticals compared to Killer Bows, so she won't be killing anything until you get that weapon level up. Mani Katti runs out very quickly, and she's stuck using regular swords, unless you're magically able to scrape up a Killing Edge, which is still fairly undurable. She may have Lyn mode to train, but if you abuse her in that, she'll jam her level up to 20 way before Eliwood and Hector, and will hurt your EXP rank. Lyn won't be killing much without a critical, anyway. Her str is rather pathetic.

[Florete]

Lies. She's promoting much later than Eliwood in HHM because Eliwood makes much better use of the promotion items.

Players' choice, my friend.

[_____]

Players' choice, my friend.

Eliwood is the better choice, so it's assumed he promotes first.

[Florete]

Eliwood is the better choice, so it's assumed he promotes first.

Better is in the eyes of the player. For me personally, Lyn has always been the better choice. Choice.

[_____]

Better is in the eyes of the player. For me personally, Lyn has always been the better choice. Choice.

Ok. That's your opinion, and I respect that. In this debate, however, it's understood that Eliwood is better on average, so he's going to promote first.

[Reikken]

Eliwood is the better choice, so it's assumed he promotes first.

While Eliwood is generally the better choice, you can't just assume everyone is going to pick him first. Yes, he usually will be, but... Eliwood or Lyn might have been RNG-screwed or blessed, so you may decide to ditch your screwed Eliwood and promote Lyn, or promote your meh Lyn because your blessed Eliwood is 1337 enough to be fine without promoting, etc. Or you may even not be using Eliwood at all. Or you may just be a Lyn fanboy or something.