Skill Triggers vs Skill Proc

[NekoKnight]

In another entry of Things-Heroes-Did-That-May-Be-A-Good-Idea-But-I'm-Still-On-The-Fence-About-It-So-I'll-Ask-You-Guys (THDTMBAGIBISOTFAISIAYG for short) series, Skill triggers! For those not in the know, in Fire Emblem Heroes there is no RNG so combat skills instead trigger after a unit has taken a certain number of actions or been attacked. This is a stark contrast to the somewhat controversial proc skills that activate randomly, based on one's skill or luck stat. Which system do you prefer?

I think Heroes had an interesting dynamic and it's nice being able to plan when an ability would be available as opposed to getting a Lethality proc when the enemy is at 1 health. They also have an interesting balancing technique where stronger skills take more actions to be able to activate. Landing a proc skill is always exciting but maybe it would be more strategic if you knew when they would activate.

Also, while we're on the topic: Do you think characters should have limited skill slots divided by type (Support/Attack) or should characters be able to equip any type of skill?

Edited March 17, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Slumber]

I'm not a huge fan of having timers for skills like Heroes did. As much as I love the tactical/strategic portion of FE, and being able to see when skills will proc being more calculable, the game's also an RPG, and with that comes RNG.

Plus, being able to rely on skills based on turn counts could end up being very abusable(IE, throw a unit who can tank a skill at a boss who has theirs ready, then unload on said boss with every unit who has skills ready). I think the "Activation is based on stats" gives a bit more of a satisfying gameplay hook. It really only works in Heroes because Heroes is such a small game, and you really have waaaaaay less control than you do in other games. For a full fledged game, I think that system would get very tedious.

As for the second question: I think units should be able to equip almost any skill, but at a price. Basically the Tellius system.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Slumber

[Extrasolar]

I'm a huge fan of proc skills. Just another thing in-battle that makes me happy, when I see an Astra activation, a Luna activation... Or something that makes me cry when I see an Eclipse activation. gg no re

I've always liked the RNG of FE (for the most part... I mean, when it feels the need to have a snide giggle at you and make you get hit by a 1% crit or something the novelty wears off a little bit) just because no two battles are ever the same.

I think no RNG of Heroes works fine for what it is, but I still feel like some skills take too long to charge up, like Night Sky and whatnot. I definitely want the RNG to stay in the main series.

Though yeah, those worthless crits and Lethality procs when the enemy is at 1 HP... Like, you honestly couldn't have done it on the first attack? Why, RNG?!

But I guess that's also part of the fun.

Also, second question. Definitely like the Tellius system.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Jedi]

While not on your poll options, I quite like how Berwick goes about it, where you active your skills manually but have a cool down, although in terms of just FE I think i'll go with Proc's.

[NekoKnight]

8 minutes ago, Jedi said:

While not on your poll options, I quite like how Berwick goes about it, where you active your skills manually but have a cool down, although in terms of just FE I think i'll go with Proc's.

I haven't played Berwick Saga although I considered making another poll option. I think at the core they are quite similar, you have some manner of control of when they happen.

Edited March 17, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Vaximillian]

Best of both worlds: random procs, limited slots.

[Dragrath]

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

I'm not a huge fan of having timers for skills like Heroes did. As much as I love the tactical/strategic portion of FE, and being able to see when skills will proc being more calculable, the game's also an RPG, and with that comes RNG.

Plus, being able to rely on skills based on turn counts could end up being very abusable(IE, throw a unit who can tank a skill at a boss who has theirs ready, then unload on said boss with every unit who has skills ready). I think the "Activation is based on stats" gives a bit more of a satisfying gameplay hook. It really only works in Heroes because Heroes is such a small game, and you really have waaaaaay less control than you do in other games. For a full fledged game, I think that system would get very tedious.

As for the second question: I think units should be able to equip almost any skill, but at a price. Basically the Tellius system.

I have to agree with this mostly. though I wouldn't want a direct copy and past of Tellius that ignores some of the positive developments for (note that Tellius does have a number of skills total limit given how capacity has a maximum limit)

From the skill systems we have seen I think a hybrid between Fates and RD is probably where the best potential lies. 

Or to be explicit I would probably suggest dividing skills into:

Class skills(units of X class get the skills for free as long as they are that class)

Personal Skills(units get skills for free regardless of class ect.)  

Generic skills (mainly via scroll) which would feature a limited capacity limited by class/tier (to what degree would depend on how broken the skills are) This would also include skills listed above as Class and Personal skills however they would cost capacity to get on other units and wouldn't be cheap!)

(Take for example Wary Fighter might be given as a class skill to promoted Generals however other units could get it from a skill at the high cost of say 15-20 capacity)

Though I should add that I would like to maintain the ability to get nearly every skill on particular units at the same time as I have come to prefer Fates skill heavy game play even if I'm not convinced skill learning should be intrinsically linked to class.

Skill dependence on stats should remain as it helps add value to some stats that otherwise are not held to the same degree of importance as stats like HP strength magic speed defense resistance are. (Namely Skill and Luck both often neglected due to weapons being able to counteract low skill and lack having little direct combat role other than reducing crits.

Fates use of distinguishing between initiation and retaliation with regards to skills and weapons is a more worthwhile route to expand on for non RNG skills than by having skill trigger on x turn in my opinion.

[Interdimensional Observer]

One criticism I have of procs is that they cannot be trusted to activate when you need them, Classic FE has permadeath after all, you must assume the worst. They amount to bonuses more than actual reliable damage/kill increases.

I concur a blend of Fates and Tellius would work best. Fixed and irremovable Class Skills like Wary Fighter on Generals, Tellius-styled Personal Skills where you can assign whatever, and maybe even as a frilly touch the Fates-styled Personal Skills. Also I prefer scrolls-learning to class-learning and instituting a point-based Skill cap.

It is also worth noting TRS and BS for their skills ideas. TRS has many characters learn skills by hitting reaching certain levels. And it also has houses you can visit in certain chapters to learn certain skills in exchange for money. Because some of these places cannot be revisited (or so I think), it means if you place a given skill-teaching house early enough, you can deny the skill to a character who would otherwise be too good with it.

BS has command skills that go on cool-down for a number of turns after you use them (as someone else already pointed out). When they're ready to be used again, you can wait forever before using them once more. BS also has command skills which you cannot use if you move beforehand on that turn. Both BS and TRS do have proc skills too, so cool-downs and procs can coexist.

We should wait and see how Shadows of Valentia does skills, which seems to be equipment-based.

[Extrasolar]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

One criticism I have of procs is that they cannot be trusted to activate when you need them, Classic FE has permadeath after all, you must assume the worst. They amount to bonuses more than actual reliable damage/kill increases.

You definitely have a point here, but I think that's the point of proc skills. Just like the RNG deciding whether you even hit in the first place or not, nothing in classic RNG FE is meant to be guaranteed. You're taking a chance time you confirm an attack - sure, you may not be gambling a lot if the hit percentage is 99%, but it's still possible to miss.

Imo the skills aren't meant to be reliable in that you can count on them to activate all the time, or when you need them. You have to always plan cautiously (i.e., count on it not activating at all), and a skill proc is meant to be a pleasant (or unpleasant, if it's the enemy activating) surprise that either changes your plans for the better or for worse.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Dragrath]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

One criticism I have of procs is that they cannot be trusted to activate when you need them, Classic FE has permadeath after all, you must assume the worst. They amount to bonuses more than actual reliable damage/kill increases.

I concur a blend of Fates and Tellius would work best. Fixed and irremovable Class Skills like Wary Fighter on Generals, Tellius-styled Personal Skills where you can assign whatever, and maybe even as a frilly touch the Fates-styled Personal Skills. Also I prefer scrolls-learning to class-learning and instituting a point-based Skill cap.

It is also worth noting TRS and BS for their skills ideas. TRS has many characters learn skills by hitting reaching certain levels. And it also has houses you can visit in certain chapters to learn certain skills in exchange for money. Because some of these places cannot be revisited (or so I think), it means if you place a given skill-teaching house early enough, you can deny the skill to a character who would otherwise be too good with it.

BS has command skills that go on cool-down for a number of turns after you use them (as someone else already pointed out). When they're ready to be used again, you can wait forever before using them once more. BS also has command skills which you cannot use if you move beforehand on that turn. Both BS and TRS do have proc skills too, so cool-downs and procs can coexist.

We should wait and see how Shadows of Valentia does skills, which seems to be equipment-based.

Hmm from this I could see certain skills being items sold during particular chapters as being able to put any skill ... at least independently before balance testing etc. is a good starting point. If a skill is broken with certain combos that is where restrictions should come into play. Skills based on equipment I consider more as typically rare weapon/item effects rather than skills so I don't know if they should be treated in the same manner... SoV is after all based on a  pre-skill system game ;)

[Severn]

The nature of proc skills means they are all pretty much useless on player phase except Sol (And Astra in Fates for guard stance building). I'd much prefer something like heroes when we know exactly when the skill is going to trigger so you can use it to it's fullest.