Lyn v. Guy

[Florete]

Debates are about what character benefits the team more, right? If a character is making Mather more likely to be fielded, they are benefiting the team MORE. It's not just about what characters are being used, it's about the best possible combination you can get. All the characters interlock, and connect with each other. If you think you have a better combination, go ahead and try to prove it. In other words, if someone "assumes" Mathew is being used, give a reason to use Legault, don't just say "That won't always happen."

A reason to use Legault? Okay. If you didn't train Matthew, he'll be much better than Matt by the time you get him. Good enough for me should I choose to not use him, which happens often enough.

"lolno, Matt is always played cuz he iz a top tier character."

I don't find that to be a good reason at all. How am I supposed to say anything else other than what I've already said? Sure, it's best to use Matthew over Legault, I get that. But then it comes to the point where one character is having huge effects on the rest of the team and it doesn't allow for any changes to be made. If you used the argument "Matthew is very likely to be used over Legault" I would accept that, as long as it doesn't mean that something else I think is a good idea is blown away because you don't think it's good enough. It then goes to the supports again...

[Defeatist Elitist]

A reason to use Legault? Okay. If you didn't train Matthew, he'll be much better than Matt by the time you get him. Good enough for me should I choose to not use him, which happens often enough.

"lolno, Matt is always played cuz he iz a top tier character."

I don't find that to be a good reason at all. How am I supposed to say anything else other than what I've already said? Sure, it's best to use Matthew over Legault, I get that. But then it comes to the point where one character is having huge effects on the rest of the team and it doesn't allow for any changes to be made. If you used the argument "Matthew is very likely to be used over Legault" I would accept that, as long as it doesn't mean that something else I think is a good idea is blown away because you don't think it's good enough. It then goes to the supports again...

As long as we say Mathew is very likely to be used over Legault your fine? I'm fine with that. But I'm still going to argue against points you make. Do ya follow me? If I don't think your argument is good enough, I'm going to point it out. Is there something wrong with that? You can try to prove it, and I can try to disprove it. I have no way in a debate, in fact, no-one has a way (other than you, being a Mod and all) to stop someone from saying something. What you try to do is make your argument better supported then the other persons. I'll repeat this. There is no way for us to ignore a valid argument you make. Or an invalid one. All we can do is try to prove why our way is better. Or why your way is bad. Just in general, if you yourself are feeling unsure about your argument, or have no idea how to defend it, the other person is probably winning.

[Florete]

As long as we say Mathew is very likely to be used over Legault your fine? I'm fine with that. But I'm still going to argue against points you make. Do ya follow me? If I don't think your argument is good enough, I'm going to point it out. Is there something wrong with that? You can try to prove it, and I can try to disprove it. I have no way in a debate, in fact, no-one has a way (other than you, being a Mod and all) to stop someone from saying something. What you try to do is make your argument better supported then the other persons. I'll repeat this. There is no way for us to ignore a valid argument you make. Or an invalid one. All we can do is try to prove why our way is better. Or why your way is bad. Just in general, if you yourself are feeling unsure about your argument, or have no idea how to defend it, the other person is probably winning.

I totally agree with all of that. All I'm saying now is it feels like my arguments have, in fact, been practically ignored multiple times. It comes down to the opinion thing again. I think one choice is great and I support it with reasons why. I then get "lolnoitsnotitsucksandisnthappeningcuzthisishappeningandthisrocks" back.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I totally agree with all of that. All I'm saying now is it feels like my arguments have, in fact, been practically ignored multiple times. It comes down to the opinion thing again. I think one choice is great and I support it with reasons why. I then get "lolnoitsnotitsucksandisnthappeningcuzthisishappeningandthisrocks" back.

I haven't really seen that much of that. Perhaps we should explain our points more. I'll be honest, usually we don't have to explain many of these argument (ie, why Mathew is gonna be used), because most of us (debaters) have had these arguments all about a billion times so far. I guess in our zeal we sometimes forget that not everyone is one of us, and that they won't yet know our reasons...

[Florete]

I haven't really seen that much of that. Perhaps we should explain our points more. I'll be honest, usually we don't have to explain many of these argument (ie, why Mathew is gonna be used), because most of us (debaters) have had these arguments all about a billion times so far. I guess in our zeal we sometimes forget that not everyone is one of us, and that they won't yet know our reasons...

Sounds possible.

Why don't I try to throw this back on topic a bit. I would say LynxFlorina is awesome. I would get "Florina wants Fiora more." Overall, I don't get arguments like this unless Florina wanted Hector more, since he's a lord. How can you find out how good a character is if you don't look at what they can get in any given situation compared to someone else? Saying someone has "no supports" is total crap to me unless that character comes too late or all of the supports take forever. You should understand why I see things this way as a result of the discussion we just had.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Sounds possible.

Why don't I try to throw this back on topic a bit. I would say LynxFlorina is awesome. I would get "Florina wants Fiora more." Overall, I don't get arguments like this unless Florina wanted Hector more, since he's a lord. How can you find out how good a character is if you don't look at what they can get in any given situation compared to someone else? Saying someone has "no supports" is total crap to me unless that character comes too late or all of the supports take forever. You should understand why I see things this way as a result of the discussion we just had.

But FlorinaxFiora will make your team stronger overall. That's the basic point. You want me to extrapolate on that, or do you have an argument with it? Or was this not your point?

[Florete]

But FlorinaxFiora will make your team stronger overall. That's the basic point. You want me to extrapolate on that, or do you have an argument with it? Or was this not your point?

At the price of hurting Lyn, who, you must admit, is more likely being played than Fiora. This support is also earlier and faster which is > later and slower. Florina gets the same bonus either way; IMO, the quicker one is better. I also don't usually play more than one flier.

Also, helping a lord > helping a random teammate. This is why someone "preferring" a lord or a lord "preferring" someone is valid to me in certain circumstances.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[sandmanccl]

Long story short, in the long run at 20/20, Guy will edge Lyn out in health and critical rate, Lyn will edge Guy out in strength, luck and resistance. Their skill and speed will be identical, and their defense will be nearly identical. Only supports, RNG blessing to Guy or RNG rape to Lyn, and HHM bonuses make Guy only slightly better. But even so, I'd say Sandman's argument is pretty valid. *information based off of data from the main site*

Well thank you.

My whole point is that they are interchangeable. Even if one outperforms the other at any point, it's never by enough that clearly gives the edge so far to one side that using the other person is obviously a detriment to your team.

I simply do NOT buy the argument that Guy CLEARLY outperforms Lyn on such a grand scale that you cannot possibly S-rank the game on Hector's Hard Mode without him. We can dance around with supports and whatnot all day long, but at the end of the day, both are valid candidates for the same role in combat, which is to take on axe people and murder archers. That's what the swordmaster archtype is all about and both do it exceedingly well, nearly identical for the vast majority of the game.

There's compelling reasons to not use either character at all, anyway. Guy relies HEAVILY on his supports in order to be a viable unit, Lyn is underleveled without playing her mode first.

You gotta look at how many sword guys there are. All your cavaliers have access to swords. Eliwood is a sword guy. Raven is a sword guy. All the thieves are sword guys. There is rarely a point where having a myriad of sword guys benefits your team because there's rarely a point where using swords outside of situational matters is appropriate. You're telling me that you're going to use your sword guy (most of which have pretty awful defenses, btw) to attack even a Loldier for 10 damage twice over an axe guy that will do 15 damage and only hit him once? I don't see that happening. I trust that people aren't that stupid to think it's better to put the sword guy at risk even if he's doing more damage when the axe guy can take the counterattack cleanly without it hurting your team, allowing you to finish it off with a different unit.

And if you are that stupid, well, I don't really care about your opinion on anything Fire Emblem because you're not a particularly good strategist and I would likely wipe the floor with you in any competitive strategy game ever made.

[Mekkah]

I simply do NOT buy the argument that Guy CLEARLY outperforms Lyn on such a grand scale that you cannot possibly S-rank the game on Hector's Hard Mode without him.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying Guy >>> Lyn. Not that using Lyn makes S-ranking the game impossible. Not even Bartre, Renault, Karla or Nino makes that impossible. However, using them over Guy sure as hell makes it harder by a noticable amount.

both are valid candidates for the same role in combat, which is to take on axe people and murder archers

Maybe that's all what Lyn can do, but Guy can actually one round nearly every single enemy except the Cog of Destiny Boss (because of Iron Rune).

What you assign for their archetypes is not the same as I do. I look at how a character performs as a whole. Despite "not being meant for it", Guy can own Generals, can own Soldiers, can own Cavaliers, etc., and much better than Lyn at that. And yes, I will use him over an axe user for that if I want to. He may even be better for it, given that Dart plows through my funds, Hector may be 20/0, and Dorcas/Bartre probably will not double.

You gotta look at how many sword guys there are.

And what their swords do for their team. They give them 1 Atk/1 Def/15 Avo/15 Hit against axe users, and lose that much against lances. And they add a certain amount of Mt to their base Str...less than other weapons. That's it. There's no enemy in the game that goes "hey, if you use a sword, you cannot possibly beat me. Use an axe user instead."

You're telling me that you're going to use your sword guy (most of which have pretty awful defenses, btw) to attack even a Loldier for 10 damage twice over an axe guy that will do 15 damage and only hit him once?

Well, the sword guy just did more damage, and you didn't tell me anything about what other things would happen, so yeah, I'd be inclined to use my sword dude here.

At the price of hurting Lyn, who, you must admit, is more likely being played than Fiora.

Only if Lyn is better than Fiora, then she is more likely to be played. Whether that is true is very arguable.

Also, helping a lord > helping a random teammate.

No. "Lord" is Lyn's class, but if they changed it to Myrmidon, and left all other things the same, it wouldn't matter. Lyn is not more entitled to a support than Fiora is if both are in play.

Maybe if Lyn was autofielded as often as Hector.

[Reikken]

I simply do NOT buy the argument that Guy CLEARLY outperforms Lyn on such a grand scale that you cannot possibly S-rank the game on Hector's Hard Mode without him.

It's not about it not being possible. No one is that good or bad. Even the difference between someone with 30 in every stat including move vs someone with 5 in every stat except 15 in hp and 10% growths across the board isn't enough for that. It's about it being easier or harder.

[DeSu]

Mani Katti breaks, and her avoid isn't as h4x as you think it is. She just needs to be on the field. She doesn't need to be used.

I know it breaks, and I definitely don't think her evade is hax. Lern2distinguishFox/Faiya

[Just call me AL]

I know it breaks, and I definitely don't think her evade is hax. Lern2distinguishFox/Faiya

Kinda like the avoid of Ninian and Nils, huh? (Seriously, chances are that her avoid will reach the tier of those two and maybe slightly higher.) If it can work for them, it can work for her. Edited November 4, 2008 by Little Al

[Swordsalmon]

A reason to use Legault? Okay. If you didn't train Matthew, he'll be much better than Matt by the time you get him. Good enough for me should I choose to not use him, which happens often enough.

"lolno, Matt is always played cuz he iz a top tier character."

I don't find that to be a good reason at all. How am I supposed to say anything else other than what I've already said? Sure, it's best to use Matthew over Legault, I get that. But then it comes to the point where one character is having huge effects on the rest of the team and it doesn't allow for any changes to be made. If you used the argument "Matthew is very likely to be used over Legault" I would accept that, as long as it doesn't mean that something else I think is a good idea is blown away because you don't think it's good enough. It then goes to the supports again...

Oh, so I guess Isadora>Kent, Sain, Lowen because they'll still be at base level upon her rejoin. :o

[sandmanccl]

If you're not already using Kent, Sain and Lowen, you're better served by Isadora. But my guess is if that's the case, you probably don't use a lot of horse units to begin with so Isadora is likely to get passed up.

[choco]

The mani katti is the single most useful weapon in the game, bar possibly the sword killer. Effective damage means that Lyn is doing high amounts of damage when it matters (cough, Uhai...). It breaking means that you can't indiscriminately waste it, but 45 uses is more than enough for the whole game. And it doesn't use your funds if you're going for rank, whereas using kill swords will slaughter your funds rank.

[Mekkah]

Not really slaughter...you can afford like 20 of those Killing weapons for every unit you use (as long as you don't use a lot of overly expensive units such as lolLyn, Dart, Eliwood, Farina).

[DeSu]

Lyn's avoid MAY get as hax Nils/Ninian. Also, she can get owned by lances, especially earlier. Unlike Dancers, Lyn doesn't get hax avoid until later. She also gets less Defenses.

[Swordsalmon]

Lyn's avoid MAY get as hax Nils/Ninian. Also, she can get owned by lances, especially earlier. Unlike Dancers, Lyn doesn't get hax avoid until later. She also gets less Defenses.

The Dancers never suffer WTD, so they'll have constantly better Avoid.

[Tino]

Lyn never has hax Avo due to her promoting incredibly late and faces WTD quite a lot. And otherwise she faces swords, which have high accuracy anyway.

[Just call me AL]

Lyn never has hax Avo due to her promoting incredibly late and faces WTD quite a lot. And otherwise she faces swords, which have high accuracy anyway.

A couple of people who pitted her against the dracoknight squad that appears when you get the first Heaven Seal would/may beg to differ. (Using a promoted Lyn, mind you.) And she's really capable of going the Tony Montana approach against that very dracoknight squad. And besides, it's not like Guy doesn't have WTD, meaning he is just as vulnerable to those lance users as Lyn is and more so since he is locked onto Swords through and through. And not to mention he suffers the Myrmidon's curse worse than she does. (Which would be a low chance of strength growth.) Which is shown by his growths.

[Reikken]

Getting superlucky doesn't mean a character has good avoid. You can face 60% hit rates and dodge 10 times in a row. That doesn't mean that character has good avoid.

[Florete]

Getting superlucky doesn't mean a character has good avoid. You can face 60% hit rates and dodge 10 times in a row. That doesn't mean that character has good avoid.

That happened to me with Lowen once. Any one of the shots would have killed him, too.

Oh, and it happens to me all the time with Lyn.

[Swordsalmon]

And besides, it's not like Guy doesn't have WTD, meaning he is just as vulnerable to those lance users as Lyn is and more so since he is locked onto Swords through and through. And not to mention he suffers the Myrmidon's curse worse than she does. (Which would be a low chance of strength growth.) Which is shown by his growths.

A Steel Lance Wyvern Rider has only 33% Hit on level 20/4 Guy.

And averages please. No 'Myrmidon's curse'.

[Just call me AL]

Averages please. No 'Myrmidon's curse'.

Averages aren't always going to happen, so there's always a chance that Guy may strength screwed, and therefore has to rely even more on criticals than he has to, if he is strength screwed. Edited November 6, 2008 by Little Al

[Swordsalmon]

Averages aren't always going to happen, so there's a chance that Guy may strength screwed, and therefore rely even more on criticals than he has to.

Averages please.